Bujinkan/TSD: Compare/Contrast

G

Gary Arthur

Guest
It seems that some people are under the impression that Stephen K Hayes has turned his back on Ninjutsu and created a new art called TO-SHIN DO. Let me try to put things into perspective from my point of view, having not only trained with An shu Hayes spoadically over the last nineteen years but also having been to the Dayton Quest Centre to train.

Much of what is taught in the Bujinkan arts today is very traditional, like one was fighting on battlefield in armour in the sixteenth century. For example the Jodan Tsuki where the fist is delivered from the hip into the target. Now this method was used against men in armour, to knock them down and out.

For a beginner this is a great way to start training. It allows one to learn posture, movement and delivery of a punch. It also allows the training partner to see the punch coming and therefore learn, Jodan Tsuki, Taisabaki etc.

But in todays world, people do'nt wear armour and punch like this. In fact a lot of Japanese didn't punch like this either. Therefore as a student once one has learnt the basics of the punch and how to receive that punch one can go on to learn how to defend against faster, shorter ranged, trickier and more varied in their application.

Do the defences change?
well only in the sense that the distancing, timing etc might be different. Jodan Uke, Chudan Uke, Shikan Ken etc are still used as are more advanced techniques like Yokuto, Danshi etc.

Unfortunately so many practitioners of Ninjutsu stop at the stage where the punch is delivered from the hip and progress no further. Yet strangely when one takes the art of Ninjutsu and applies it effectively against todays styles of attack they are labelled as not practicing Ninjutsu, even though Ninjutsu is an art of self protection, which it cannot be if it is only been practiced as if one is wearing armour from the sixteenth century. This is not martial arts, this is historical reenactment.

Isn't it strange that when Hatsumi Sensei shows a defence against a modern punch its Ninjutsu, but when An Shu Hayes does it, then its a completely seperate martial art.

Ok so in Toshindo we practice with air shields and bags, but then they did in Japan. Sometimes they even struck trees (see the Hatsumi Koto Ryu, and Shinden Fudo Ryu Videos)
And in Toshindo we wear armour. Heh isn't there a photograph of Dr Hatsumi or one of the Shihan in the 60s or 70s wearing Kendo armour to defend against a kick?

Oh yes we call it TO-SHIN DO, but isn't Ninjutsu called Budo Taijutsu now, and didn't Takamatsu call it Happo Biken. Its still the same techniques, its just the names been changed to protect the innocent (Just a joke) but you know what I mean. Or maybe you don't.
Ninjutsu was not always called Ninjutsu, and in this day and age where Ninjutsu has had such a bad rep from Hollywood, Books, Comics and the rest of the media, it might just be a good idea to go into hiding a little bit. Takamatsu did, hence Happo Biken. But wait a minute 'TO and SHIN', are these not the characters that make up the word NIN of Ninjutsu and Ninja.

Maybe its the fact that TO-SHIN DO practitioners do a kind of Kumite whilst fully padded up that seperates this art from real ninjutsu.
Well my answer to that is that by using this approach it enables the practitioner to be put under stress safely and is probably the closest one can get to actual fighting. Of course Takamatsu Sensei used to fight people for real to get his training. But in his day there were no such thing as law suits.

Maybe its because people think that An Shu Hayes has added stuff from other martial arts. Well I can't comment on that, but what I do know is I saw no Karate spinning back kicks, Judo throws, kung fu moves, philopino trapping, or anything that I personally would not class as effective Ninjutsu unless of course it was used against the defender so that the practitioner could learn how to effectively deal with a Judo man, Karate man etc. Even the ground work has Movements that are nothing but Ninjutsu' Itami Jime, Hon Jime, Oni Kudaki, Zenpo Ukemi etc.

And if you think that An Shu Hayes does'nt teach Ninjutsu i.e the schools of Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Gyokko Ryu etc anymore, then I suggest you visit his school and see for yourself.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
48
Location
MAP Hell
Gary Arthur said:
It seems that some people are under the impression that Stephen K Hayes has turned his back on Ninjutsu and created a new art called TO-SHIN DO.
In a way, Hatsumi sensei has, in that ninjutsu will not be fully revealed until our taijutsu is perfected.

Gary Arthur said:
Much of what is taught in the Bujinkan arts today is very traditional, like one was fighting on battlefield in armour in the sixteenth century. For example the Jodan Tsuki where the fist is delivered from the hip into the target. Now this method was used against men in armour, to knock them down and out.
And the methods within the Bujinkan that did not utilize armour and evolved even more with the advent of suhada bujutsu...? Soke actually showed us a new way of punching while wearing armour yesterday, I found it quite similar to a Wing Chun punch in some ways.

Gary Arthur said:
But in todays world, people do'nt wear armour and punch like this. In fact a lot of Japanese didn't punch like this either. Therefore as a student once one has learnt the basics of the punch and how to receive that punch one can go on to learn how to defend against faster, shorter ranged, trickier and more varied in their application.
People don't wear yoroi, true. But it sounds as if you believe other types of dakentai training doesn't exist in the Bujinkan? I'm sorry but if that is the case, that is simply because of your own ignorance.

Gary Arthur said:
Unfortunately so many practitioners of Ninjutsu stop at the stage where the punch is delivered from the hip and progress no further. Yet strangely when one takes the art of Ninjutsu and applies it effectively against todays styles of attack they are labelled as not practicing Ninjutsu, even though Ninjutsu is an art of self protection, which it cannot be if it is only been practiced as if one is wearing armour from the sixteenth century.
Ninjutsu is not about self defense and has nothing to do with taijutsu techniques such as these.

Gary Arthur said:
Isn't it strange that when Hatsumi Sensei shows a defence against a modern punch its Ninjutsu, but when An Shu Hayes does it, then its a completely seperate martial art.
When Hatsumi sensei does this it is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. When Stephen Hayes does...well, I don't know if he wants to call it To Shin Do or taijutsu.

Gary Arthur said:
Ok so in Toshindo we practice with air shields and bags, but then they did in Japan. Sometimes they even struck trees (see the Hatsumi Koto Ryu, and Shinden Fudo Ryu Videos)
When I read things like this I actually get a wee bit scared. Do you really think that these things do not exist within the Bujinkan???

Gary Arthur said:
Oh yes we call it TO-SHIN DO, but isn't Ninjutsu called Budo Taijutsu now,
Nope. Budo Taijutsu has wrongly been labeled ninjutsu, but ninjutsu is not taijutsu in this sense.

Gary Arthur said:
Ninjutsu was not always called Ninjutsu, and in this day and age where Ninjutsu has had such a bad rep from Hollywood, Books, Comics and the rest of the media, it might just be a good idea to go into hiding a little bit. Takamatsu did, hence Happo Biken.
...and Hatsumi sensei does as well, hence Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Gary Arthur said:
Maybe its the fact that TO-SHIN DO practitioners do a kind of Kumite whilst fully padded up that seperates this art from real ninjutsu.
Yes, but then again, combative techniques such as the ones you speak of are not ninjutsu.

Gary Arthur said:
Well my answer to that is that by using this approach it enables the practitioner to be put under stress safely and is probably the closest one can get to actual fighting. Of course Takamatsu Sensei used to fight people for real to get his training. But in his day there were no such thing as law suits.
Oh but there was, he was put on trial several times. As for stress training, I refer to my analogy about how people tend to confuse their backyard pool with the ocean.

Gary Arthur said:
Well I can't comment on that, but what I do know is I saw no Karate spinning back kicks, Judo throws, kung fu moves, philopino trapping,
I've seen all these things and more done within the Bujinkan, actually Nagato sensei demonstrated a spinning backkick just a few hours ago. Of course, we don't bend our backs while throwing people like they do in judo, but I think you get my point.

Gary Arthur said:
And if you think that An Shu Hayes does'nt teach Ninjutsu i.e the schools of Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Gyokko Ryu etc anymore, then I suggest you visit his school and see for yourself.
Takagi Yoshin ryu is about as far removed from ninjutsu as you can get, and I highly doubt Hayes has been taught the ninjutsu aspects of Gyokko ryu.
 

Kreth

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
6,980
Reaction score
86
Location
Oneonta, NY
=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jeff
-MT Moderator-
 

Don Roley

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
3,522
Reaction score
71
Location
Japan
Gary Arthur said:
Much of what is taught in the Bujinkan arts today is very traditional, like one was fighting on battlefield in armour in the sixteenth century. For example the Jodan Tsuki where the fist is delivered from the hip into the target. Now this method was used against men in armour, to knock them down and out.

I just can't read anymore.

I train in Japan and your description is waaaaaaay off the mark from my experience.

I really do not think you understand what goes on in Japan or the real reasons why certain things are done the way they are. I understand that you have loyalty to your teacher and think highly of your art. But I fear many Bujinkan members will take great offense at your misreprenting what Hatsumi does in your quest to make Hayes sound better.
 
OP
G

Gary Arthur

Guest
In reply to Ninravus and Don Roley.

Firstly Mr Roley. I mean no offence to Bujinkan practitioners but am simply pointing out that the type of punch mentioned is
a/ An old method of punching against people in armour
b/ An excellent way to start training to develop power, alignment, distancing etc
c/ Is today limited in its use based on how people attack today.

I am in no way saying that this punch is the only form of Dakentaijutsu we have in ninjutsu. Certainly not. Ninjutsu has probably more ways of striking than any other martial art. Its just that from my experience of training with Bujinkan members, many seem to stop at this point instead of saying 'OK where do i go from here', 'How can I use this type of punch against a jab, cross etc.

How many times have I seen high level black belts still defending against this punch from the hip. Surely at their level of training they should be defending against punches that are inches from their face.

A few years ago i inherited a Bujinkan group that had a number of black belts training in it. I was amazed that these black belts had no idea how to use this punch in reality or how to defend themselves in todays world.

This is not to say of course that all Bujinkan instructors that train under Dr Hatsumi are like this, of course not, some take the techniques to the next level. Stephen K Hayes being one of them and of course there are others.

Now Nimravus, you have stated that ninjutsu will not be revealed until our taijutsu is perfected. Well you have been training since the 90s, An Shu Hayes has been training since the 70s. He is twenty years or more your senior. Not only that he lived in Japan and developed a very close friendship with Dr Hatsumi which exists to this day. Is it not possible then that Mr Hayes was taught Ninjutsu before you and I even knew it existed. Just because Dr Hatsumi now concentrates on the Budo side of the art, it does not really mean it was not taught in the past. even Hatsumi Sensei has stated that he is a Ninja and has taught Ninjutsu.

One quote you make is that Ninjutsu is not self defence.
If that is so what is it?
Ninjutsu developed as a means of self protection of the body, mind and spirit. Any Japanese instructor will tell you that.

Budo Taijutsu wrongly been labelled Ninjutsu?
I think you need to understand some of the reasons why Hatsumi Sensei is now calling Ninjutsu that.

In reading you posts Ninravus I can't quite work out if you are agreeing with me or not. You seem to be backing up what I say. Either that, or your not reading my posts.

For example when I mention
Originally Posted by Gary Arthur
Ok so in Toshindo we practice with air shields and bags, but then they did in Japan. Sometimes they even struck trees (see the Hatsumi Koto Ryu, and Shinden Fudo Ryu Videos)

When I read things like this I actually get a wee bit scared. Do you really think that these things do not exist within the Bujinkan???

My point exactly. We train with pads just like in the Bujinkan, so why when the TO-SHIN DO student does so people are heard to exclaim, "Oh TO-SHIN DO is not Bujinkan" or "not Ninjutsu".

you also put

Originally Posted by Gary Arthur
Well I can't comment on that, but what I do know is I saw no Karate spinning back kicks, Judo throws, kung fu moves, philopino trapping,

I've seen all these things and more done within the Bujinkan, actually Nagato sensei demonstrated a spinning backkick just a few hours ago. Of course, we don't bend our backs while throwing people like they do in judo, but I think you get my point.

Nagato demonstrated a spinning back kick. Was this a Karate kick? or a Ninjutsu style kick. I have done a kick where we turns as the attacker is coming and putting the hand to the fron kick backwards. Ushiro Muki Geri I think is the name. I know Nagato was a kick boxer, maybe he was demonstarting this.

I also mentioned that in Takamatsu Day there were not law suits. And there were not. There is a big difference here. Takamatsu was put on trial as a Japanese in a Chinese country for killing a number of Chinamen. This is a huge difference from being in a law suit because you got in a fight with some one a split their lip, or gave them a black eye.

And finally if you doubt that An Shu Hayes has not been taught the Ninjutsu aspects of Gyokko Ryu why dont you visit him and find out for yourself. You might find yourself surprised.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
48
Location
MAP Hell
Gary Arthur said:
c/ Is today limited in its use based on how people attack today.
Then of course you have drunk people, tee hee...

Gary Arthur said:
I am in no way saying that this punch is the only form of Dakentaijutsu we have in ninjutsu. Certainly not. Ninjutsu has probably more ways of striking than any other martial art.
Less, I would say. None at all, actually.

Gary Arthur said:
Its just that from my experience of training with Bujinkan members, many seem to stop at this point instead of saying 'OK where do i go from here', 'How can I use this type of punch against a jab, cross etc.
Right, but wouldn't it be better to correct the problem itself, rather than to admit defeat?

Gary Arthur said:
How many times have I seen high level black belts still defending against this punch from the hip. Surely at their level of training they should be defending against punches that are inches from their face.
There are times for shinken gata and there are times for regular training.

Gary Arthur said:
A few years ago i inherited a Bujinkan group that had a number of black belts training in it. I was amazed that these black belts had no idea how to use this punch in reality or how to defend themselves in todays world.
But in To Shin Do you have a guarantee of some sort that such practitioners will not appear at all, right? If so, I'm honestly interested in how you do this.

Gary Arthur said:
Now Nimravus, you have stated that ninjutsu will not be revealed until our taijutsu is perfected. Well you have been training since the 90s, An Shu Hayes has been training since the 70s. He is twenty years or more your senior. Not only that he lived in Japan and developed a very close friendship with Dr Hatsumi which exists to this day. Is it not possible then that Mr Hayes was taught Ninjutsu before you and I even knew it existed.
If that was the case, he wouldn't erroneously keep referring to ninjutsu as synonymous with taijutsu. The Japanese do indeed know the difference, that is why they can allow themselves to be careless with the use of the term in question.

Gary Arthur said:
Just because Dr Hatsumi now concentrates on the Budo side of the art, it does not really mean it was not taught in the past. even Hatsumi Sensei has stated that he is a Ninja and has taught Ninjutsu.
He has also stated the complete opposite.
One year Hatsumi sensei also stated something like "one should never drink alcohol, and it's unjustifiable and vulgar to use excessive force against an attacker". The next year he was all "oh, Guinness and Scotch all have very good effects on one's health, and to be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself". All this without having mentioned the American guy Soke "allowed" to become the next Soke.
No one should have to be told that this is a very Japanese way of saying "think by yourself, goddamn idiot!!" Not referring to you here Gary, just an expression.

Gary Arthur said:
One quote you make is that Ninjutsu is not self defence.
If that is so what is it?
Ninjutsu developed as a means of self protection of the body, mind and spirit. Any Japanese instructor will tell you that.
See above. As for ninjutsu, it is a small specialized science dealing with the usage and gathering of information, infiltration, espionage, biology, meteorology etc. and has nothing to do with taijutsu in itself. No, I'll never tire of saying this.

Gary Arthur said:
Budo Taijutsu wrongly been labelled Ninjutsu?
I think you need to understand some of the reasons why Hatsumi Sensei is now calling Ninjutsu that.
He is not, he is simply pointing out the fact that he hasn't taught very much at all of ninjutsu!

Gary Arthur said:
Either that, or your not reading my posts.
Ditto. I'm feeling nicely today so I'm not going to quote a few things from a book I just read about confirmatory biases.

Gary Arthur said:
My point exactly. We train with pads just like in the Bujinkan, so why when the TO-SHIN DO student does so people are heard to exclaim, "Oh TO-SHIN DO is not Bujinkan" or "not Ninjutsu".
For one thing, while wearing a Bujinkan uniform you don't have to worry about Nagato sensei getting "upset" when you come and train in Japan.

Gary Arthur said:
Nagato demonstrated a spinning back kick. Was this a Karate kick? or a Ninjutsu style kick.
There are no kicks in ninjutsu.

Gary Arthur said:
I have done a kick where we turns as the attacker is coming and putting the hand to the fron kick backwards. Ushiro Muki Geri I think is the name. I know Nagato was a kick boxer, maybe he was demonstarting this.
Nothing of the sort, all taijutsu.

Gary Arthur said:
I also mentioned that in Takamatsu Day there were not law suits. And there were not. There is a big difference here. Takamatsu was put on trial as a Japanese in a Chinese country for killing a number of Chinamen. This is a huge difference from being in a law suit because you got in a fight with some one a split their lip, or gave them a black eye.
Couldn't have been to big other than the slightly higher stakes, in that he as a Japanese was freed in a Chinese court.

Gary Arthur said:
And finally if you doubt that An Shu Hayes has not been taught the Ninjutsu aspects of Gyokko Ryu why dont you visit him and find out for yourself. You might find yourself surprised.
If it's what you wrongly refer to as ninjutsu I have no doubt he has learnt it.
 

Don Roley

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
3,522
Reaction score
71
Location
Japan
Gary Arthur said:
How many times have I seen high level black belts still defending against this punch from the hip.

Among everything else you have written that I have trouble with, this is probably the most easy to talk about.

The idea of throwing and reacting to punches from the hip is just outside of my experience. You sound like you are describing a totally different art other than what I have been training in all this time.

Does any of the Bujinkan members on this board have their ukes throw punches from the hip during class? Outside of the san shin- a SOLO form, I can't think of times when the punch does not come from about where a boxer would launch it from.

And throwing punches while in close, modified hooks, dealing with the same, etc- yeah I work on them under my Japanese teacher. I wonder how many Bujinkan members don't do this when the guys in Japan are.
 

Bob Hubbard

Retired
MT Mentor
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
47,249
Reaction score
767
Location
Land of the Free
ok, I have to ask here. Are we talking about Hayes, or differences in the teachings/teaching styles? A thread split may be in order to help keep thigns straight.
 

Dale Seago

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Messages
512
Reaction score
56
Location
San Francisco
Kaith Rustaz said:
ok, I have to ask here. Are we talking about Hayes, or differences in the teachings/teaching styles? A thread split may be in order to help keep thigns straight.

It appears to be both at this point, with Mr. Arthur asserting that Hayes needed to "modernize" Hatsumi's art for Western consumption because its allegedly archaic methods did not address the realities of modern Western situations/attacks/etc.

I have nothing to say about Toshindo, but Mr. Arthur appears not to have a clue about how Hatsumi sensei and the shihan teach.
 

Bob Hubbard

Retired
MT Mentor
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
47,249
Reaction score
767
Location
Land of the Free
Dale Seago said:
It appears to be both at this point, with Mr. Arthur asserting that Hayes needed to "modernize" Hatsumi's art for Western consumption because its allegedly archaic methods did not address the realities of modern Western situations/attacks/etc.

I have nothing to say about Toshindo, but Mr. Arthur appears not to have a clue about how Hatsumi sensei and the shihan teach.
I'm not personally familiar with either, so can only go on what I hear here.

Now, I have to act stupid here (yes, it's acting...stop laughing...:p ) and ask, Since you (Dale) are not familiar with TSD, and you (Gary) are not familiar (it seems) with Dr. Hatsumi's teachings, how can you reliably contrast the 2? (I mean no offense to either party)

It seems that while both arts have similarities, and contain some of the same parts, both have in fact evolved from the core-root in similar, yet different directions.

I see ninjutsu is not taijutsu is not bujutsu is not toshindo. Is it 4 arts, 1 with 4 schools? etc.

Maybe this muddies it more, or maybe it doesn't I'm just coming in from the "I'm really lost and need a road map here" angle. :)

Thank you.
 

Kreth

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
6,980
Reaction score
86
Location
Oneonta, NY
Nimravus said:
From each other, yes.
I think what Nimravus is trying to get at is that ninjutsu, per se, has nothing to do with fighting.

Jeff
 

Bob Hubbard

Retired
MT Mentor
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
47,249
Reaction score
767
Location
Land of the Free
so, simplistically put, ninjutsu is not a combat art, and taijutsu is?

Where does ToShinDo fit in these definitions? A blending of the 2?
 

Kreth

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
6,980
Reaction score
86
Location
Oneonta, NY
Kaith Rustaz said:
so, simplistically put, ninjutsu is not a combat art, and taijutsu is?

Where does ToShinDo fit in these definitions? A blending of the 2?
Ninjutsu is more concerned with techniques for spying and infiltration, concealment, escape techniques, etc. Some of the training has become archaic (ex. Why create metsubushi when you can buy pepper spray?) and some is not widely taught for obvious reasons (recipes for poisons, for example). Budo taijutsu is a more accurate description of the Bujinkan training, as only a few of the schools are actually ninjutsu schools, and the bulk of training today is concerned with budo.
Toshindo is Hayes' interpretation of the Bujinkan training. For myself, and many other Bujinkan members, it smacks of condescension, hinting that the training needs to be dumbed down for us ignant Americans...

Jeff
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
427
Location
Cromwell,CT
Its obvious that what Hatsumi is teaching is effective. That being said, why then would Hayes make the changes that he did, with his Toshindo? Are the basic ideas/principles the same as what Hatsumi is doing, or did he make drastic changes?

Mike
 

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
9,998
Reaction score
206
I would like to interject here and say if you think that all the Bujinkan does is practice defnse against "old school" martial arts attacks,

Come visit the school I train at. Bet it would change your mind.

:idunno:
 

Kreth

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
6,980
Reaction score
86
Location
Oneonta, NY
MJS said:
Its obvious that what Hatsumi is teaching is effective. That being said, why then would Hayes make the changes that he did, with his Toshindo? Are the basic ideas/principles the same as what Hatsumi is doing, or did he make drastic changes?

Mike
I'm sure Gary Arthur can comment on the specifics, but for several years Hayes has been moving towards a much more structured curriculum than exists in the Bujinkan. In the Bujinkan, there is a guidebook for instructors known as the Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki, but it does not break down techniques per belt level. It's rather suggested that a student should be familiar with all of the techniques and concepts therein before reaching shodan. Hatsumi sensei gives his shidoshi (instructors) freedom to teach their students in their own style. An interesting side note is that as a result of this approach, the Bujinkan community has developed as a real world peer-to-peer network, rather than having a strict hierarchy. Ben Cole, a Bujinkan student and former longtime Japan resident, did a thesis on this phenomenon.

Jeff
 

Latest Discussions

Top