Is Toshindo still Ninjutsu?

Toshindo4ever

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It's possible for others to respect him without believing the same things you do.

No it is not. Not in this case. While Anshu is trying to spread Hatsumi sensei's art in the world, there are people saying that he is not a student of the Bujinkan. That would make him a liar. They never say it to his face, but that is what they say.

Go ahead, ask him yourself if you dare. Anshu is quite open about how he respects Hatsumi sensei. And Hatsumi sensei still speaks highly of Anshu and continues to provide guidence and training for him. And people that say otherwise WITHOUT EXCEPTION have never bothered to ask Anshu themselves.
 

Kreth

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That is a silly question. It is a well known fact that Anshu is ordained and that he teaches these things.
You asked if I had ever seen kuji kiri training in the Bujinkan. I asked if you had ever seen that type of training in Toshindo. How is that silly? :idunno:

That article was written by someone who in the first sentence says he is not an expert. At no point does he say that he witnessed what was going on. And I have it on good authority that he does not really live in Japan.
Don Roley has lived and trained in Japan for several years. In fact, he's lived there longer than Hayes did.
 

Toshindo4ever

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Don Roley has lived and trained in Japan for several years. In fact, he's lived there longer than Hayes did.

Are you sure? Or are you just going by what others have said?

Because he sure does not know what he is talking about. And he does not appear on the lists of translators and such for Hatsumi sensei. But guess what, Anshu has!

What does that say about Mr Roley and all the other rumor mongers? Do you see the people that are doing translations for Hatsumi sensei at Tai Kais saying these things? No. Only those out of the loop like Mr Roley are saying these things.

And if Anshu is open about teaching kuji kiri, why do you need to ask me?
 

Kreth

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Are you sure? Or are you just going by what others have said?

Because he sure does not know what he is talking about.
I know Don Roley, and I'm quite sure that he lives in Japan. Now what exactly is your background, that you can so easily dismiss his knowledge?

What does that say about Mr Roley and all the other rumor mongers? Do you see the people that are doing translations for Hatsumi sensei at Tai Kais saying these things? No. Only those out of the loop like Mr Roley are saying these things.
Then there are many, many people "out of the loop," as you say. What's strange to me is that their version of events is so consistent. Typically, liars like to embellish a bit. :rolleyes:

And if Anshu is open about teaching kuji kiri, why do you need to ask me?
Since you've dodged this question twice, I'll assume you're unwilling to answer it.
 

kwaichang

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For those who know, no explanation is necessary.

For those who do not know, no explanation is acceptable.:ultracool
 

stone_dragone

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As a partial outsider, I have to agree with JKS9199 and say that just because someone has a differing opinion doesn't mean that they don't respect the object of that difference (in this conversation, Anshu Hayes being the said object). Quite the opposite, actually. A mature artist would take something negative that they heard about someone that they admire and either choose to ignore it or accept it and not let it change their belief.

We walk a fine line when we hold our seniors in such reverence that anything said about them that isn't flattering should be met with the moniker of "disrespect" and is thus responded to with virulent contempt and anger.

I would hope that those of use who are offended for Mr. Hayes would take his own instruction on the matter and not let apparent detractors take away from your own joy.

It is a sign of maturity to be able to take a disagreement and move on to, say, a discussion of the advanced level training methods of ToShinDo as a system vs the Takamatsuden teachings regarding the more "sneaky" areas of skill (smoke bombs, kuji, etc).
 

The Last Legionary

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Is ToShinDo still Ninjutsu?
Japanese Ninjustsu? No.
American Ninjutsu? Yes.
Does it share a common root with the Bujukin? Yes
It's not Bujukin Ninjutsu however.

Doesn't make it better or worse, superior or inferrior. Makes it what it is.
A separate art.
 

kwaichang

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As a partial outsider, I have to agree with JKS9199 and say that just because someone has a differing opinion doesn't mean that they don't respect the object of that difference (in this conversation, Anshu Hayes being the said object).
According to some of the posts here, respect is not the issue, the posts do not reflect respect for SKH but rather "dis" him and label his statements, etc. as falsehood. Those must be addressed by we who know.:jediduel:
Quite the opposite, actually. A mature artist would take something negative that they heard about someone that they admire and either choose to ignore it or accept it and not let it change their belief.
Ignorance or blatant falsehoods are not to be ignored indefinitely. Truth must be stated at some point to try and inform those who would be swayed by those who post negatives.
We walk a fine line when we hold our seniors in such reverence that anything said about them that isn't flattering should be met with the moniker of "disrespect" and is thus responded to with virulent contempt and anger.
It's not reverence we practice but rather belief in the man, his teachings, and his word.:ninja:

I would hope that those of use who are offended for Mr. Hayes would take his own instruction on the matter and not let apparent detractors take away from your own joy.
I don't believe any of us has lost "joy".:)
It is a sign of maturity to be able to take a disagreement and move on to, say, a discussion of the advanced level training methods of ToShinDo as a system vs the Takamatsuden teachings regarding the more "sneaky" areas of skill (smoke bombs, kuji, etc).
If it were merely disagreement, I would agree.
:banghead:
 

Toshindo4ever

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According to some of the posts here, respect is not the issue, the posts do not reflect respect for SKH but rather "dis" him and label his statements, etc. as falsehood. Those must be addressed by we who know.:jediduel:

Ignorance or blatant falsehoods are not to be ignored indefinitely. Truth must be stated at some point to try and inform those who would be swayed by those who post negatives.

It's not reverence we practice but rather belief in the man, his teachings, and his word.:ninja:


I don't believe any of us has lost "joy".:)

If it were merely disagreement, I would agree.
:banghead:

So wise, so wise.
 

bydand

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So wise, so wise.

So full of BS, so full of BS.


If Stephen Hayes will not publicly address these issues, and feels it is best to turn the other cheek sort of speak, then why wouldn't those of us who train in his art do the same? Do you see him getting into arguments over an issue that was raised a couple of YEARS ago? No, you don't; so why is it that most Long Distance students and ardent, borderline fanatical, supporters feel it is their solemn duty to defend something that doesn't matter in the long run?
 

kwaichang

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IMO, it is merely that as he is being attacked here (sort of) his defenders speak up.
I totally agree that SKH doesn't care one hoot for those who attempt to detract from his expertise and/or teachings.
 

Grenadier

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ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator
 

bydand

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IMO, it is merely that as he is being attacked here (sort of) his defenders speak up.
I totally agree that SKH doesn't care one hoot for those who attempt to detract from his expertise and/or teachings.

But he doesn't NEED anybody to speak up for him. I highly doubt he WANTS anybody to speak up for him outside of a couple of the Hombu Shihans he has appointed, and even they will NOT speak for the man. The represent SKH, but do not speak for him. I know several very well and have never heard one of them speak for SKH. Have heard them relay a statement, have seen them read a statement, have even had a few drinks with some at their homes over BBQ, and never heard them defend the guy like I see people on the internet who have never been in the same zipcode with SKH feel they have the knowledge and authority speak in his absence. And yes, this same exact question has been raised to them directly, by me. Have heard their take and their knowledge of the matter, but never once have they spoken for SKH.
 

kwaichang

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But he doesn't NEED anybody to speak up for him.
Agreed.
I see people on the internet who have never been in the same zipcode with SKH feel they have the knowledge and authority speak in his absence.
I'm glad you distilled your reply down to these IMPORTANT statements.
None of us speak for SKH, rather we speak of him, his character and his teachings. That, as students and friends (in my case over 30yrs) is the least we can do.
 

bydand

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Agreed.

I'm glad you distilled your reply down to these IMPORTANT statements.
None of us speak for SKH, rather we speak of him, his character and his teachings. That, as students and friends (in my case over 30yrs) is the least we can do.

Agreed 100%

We can speak of his Character and teachings all we want and feel the need to; but to try and answer a question that is more personal I feel is stepping over boundaries we shouldn't be crossing no matter how much we feel our perception is the correct one.

The original question was is To-Shin Do still Ninjutsu? As I have said before but in different words. In flavor yes, but in presentation and content, no; it has gone it's own way now and while a major portion of the content is the same as it was years ago, there is new evolving content all the time. Same as in the Bujinkan, they have evolved in different directions and while the trappings are still somewhat the same, and the phrasing is somewhat the same, they are two different arts at this point IMHO.
 

kwaichang

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Bruce Lee said it well: "To me, ultimately, martial arts means honestly expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do"

IMO, all Sifu's, GM's and Master Teachers do just that.
 

Raynac

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I agree whole heartedly with your guy's last few statements.

but the movie posted on the first page (thanks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50WRzzbhlY
more importantly the phrase about gathering herbs got my mind started on an idea. since To-shin Do is a "moderenized" version of what he learned... why can't we apply that to the non-combative parts of the old ninjustu... instead of learning about herbs that may not exist in our climate, lets learn about the medicines of today, because im sure if our medicine was readily avalable to the public during the times of the ninja they would likely use it.

you could learn first aid, CPR... and this stems all from the collection of herbs, maybe this is just a wild idea in a young mind but... we could actually modernize ninjutsu... make the american ninjutsu something really special... well you guys might be able to at least. i have many years before im a blackbelt and I can actually learn what stephen haze has to share about what he learned in the good old days.

What do you guys think?
 

GBlues

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Well, I'm just a white belt, and unfortunately I have had to put my training on hold for short time, due to not having a job. But if you would permit me, I would like to give my take on the matter.

From the things I've read and heard, it kind of seems a mute point. Anshu Hayes has said on video that he does still offer those types of training,( herbal gathering, etc.....), to those that are interested. So I would say yes it is ninjutsu. Just not in the classical sense. Even he says, that he saw the bujinkan going in a direction he didn't care for. Putting more of a focus on the self-defense applications, than the more exotic ninjutsu teachings, and that he resisted for some time. Because he had studied ninjutsu to learn those types of things that you can't learn from other martial arts. However, he also says that he began to see the value in what Hatsumi Sensei was doing. That while there are still people that will spend the time to learn making there own gun powder, and finding herbs, etc... there is a large group that will not. They would rather concentrate on the self-defense applications.

So as a teacher, if someone comes to you and says, "Look I like what your doing self-defense wise, but I really don't have the time for some of the other things, will you teach me to protect myself?" as a teacher do you tunr that person away, because they don't or won't spend the time to learn the other aspects? Perhaps after some time in training they will, or perhaps because they have come to you and asked you to help them learn how to defend themselves you help them.

In my life time I have never met a teacher that withheld knowledge just for the sake of witholding knowledge. I think that most teachers regardless of what they teach are probably more perceptive of there students than we give them credit for. If a student is ready and willing to learn something, or has even asked I think most instructors are more than willing if they feel that person is ready, to teach it to them.

Is to-shindo still ninjutsu? In my opinion yes. I think that it is structured differently to allow a larger diversity of people to experience,( even if it just a small piece), a piece of ninjutsu. To learn a little bit about a culture, while being more susceptible for most americans to accept the teachings. This is not a bad thing. The more people that can taste something, more popular that thing becomes. The same with anything. So....people will argue probably for a long time about things that really in the grand scheme of things don't matter. What does matter is are you happy with what your being taught? Do you find value in it? Is your instructor capable of passing on to you what he has been taught? The answer for me on all levels is yes. The question for each one of is the same, and if it is yes, why bother with the other crap?
 
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