Changes to the structure of the Ninjutsu forum.

Bob Hubbard

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We have created 2 sub forums to this area.
Traditional and Modern.

Traditional is a forum for the X-Kans, Modern for everyone else.

This forum will remain as a "Ninjutsu General" where all can discuss and cross-compare.

The sub forums are restricted to the discussion of those areas specifically.
Discussion within the "Traditional" must be of a verifiable basis and at this time is restricted to the only known verified lineage.

Modern is for the discussion of the modern adaptions, spinoffs, or creations.

It is hoped that by separating things in this manner, some of the issues we have seen recently will disappear.

Now, some questions will arise:
Stephen Hayes. If discussing Quest/Toshindo goto "Modern". If discussing his relationship with Dr. Hatsumi, the Bujinkan, or the traditional teachings, goto "Traditional". "General" is also ok.
Ashida Kim - "Modern" or "General".
Frank Dux - "Modern" or "General".
Saito - "General".
Rick Tew - "Modern" or "General".
Hatsumi Lineages - "Traditional"
"Koga Ryu Nijutsu" - "General" (The last person to be recognized as part of the Koga Ryu lineage in Japan was Seiko Fujita. His knowledge of "ninjutsu" died with him - he left no successor.)

I realize this will not satisfy everyone. I apologize. However, the bickering, etc. which has resulted in several locked threads has given us 2 options. Split or shut down. I prefer not to shut down if at all possible.

If there are any questions, please ask them here.

We will slowly be moving some of the threads here into the new sub-forums to help 'stock' them.

Thank you.
- Mgmt -
 

sojobow

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Kaith Rustaz said:
We have created 2 sub forums to this area.
Traditional and Modern.

Traditional is a forum for the X-Kans, Modern for everyone else.
Thank you.
- Mgmt -

*Salute* It has begun. Thanx
 

Seig

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After much discussion amongst the staff, we have come to the conclusion that the split of the Ninjustsu forum is an abject failure. The exact same negative behavior is going on now that was before. The only difference being you have an additional forum to do it in. To that ends, the members of this forum have exactly one week to clean it up. Traditionalists, use the traditional area, Neo-Nijustsu guys, use the modern. We will be looking to see if you are discussing technique, weapons and such. The rabid fraud busting is going to stop. If in one week, the Ninjustsu forums have not been brought back into the fold as it were, it is going away and everything will be rolled back into Japanese or General. This is not the track we want to take; please, do not force our hands.

Seig
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Enson

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personally i enjoy having both forums, but i guess you are right not much has changed. when i tried to post a question outside of the typical argument not many posted.(i also got a red dot for it) seems like most here love to argue even though they never admit it.
peace
 

Kreth

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I can only speak for myself. I don't have a problem with the majority of the modern ninjitsu crowd, just those that invent lineage and history to suit themselves.

Jeff
 

Bester

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No big loss. Outside of a few minimal historical bits, what have they really been doing other than slamming each other over who is wearing the real pjs?
 

Cryozombie

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Bester said:
No big loss. Outside of a few minimal historical bits, what have they really been doing other than slamming each other over who is wearing the real pjs?

Bester, I disagree. I think there has been a lot of positive discussion recently in the forum, but there are still some... issues...

I would hate to see the forum go away because one Troll, (whom I admit to doing my share of fighting with, but I have stopped) and a couple of guys with personal issues twords one another cannot play nice. Perhaps instead of punishing the ninjutsu forums as a whole, which I really do feel have made improvements in the past several weeks, real action should be taken against the troublemakers...

I mean, we have positive discussions about Ninjutsu seminars, Meanings of Rank, where to find weapons, some good ninja humor... its just some folks cannot "bury the hatchet".
 

Don Roley

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Kreth said:
I can only speak for myself. I don't have a problem with the majority of the modern ninjitsu crowd, just those that invent lineage and history to suit themselves.

Well you speak for me as well in this case. If a certain person would stop trying to rewrite history in the modern section we would have a lot less reasons to stand up and try to stop the flow of bad information. If they want to talk about how they can use Gracie stuff or compare punching styles, as long as they are not trying to claim it is from Japan I have no problem. But I really can not stand by while Japanese history is being butchered.

It would be a shame if the whole experiment was ruined due to the actions of one poster like it is. I am having flashbacks to A.R.K. and all the damage he caused before it all ended.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Well, I tried to find a knowledgeable moderator...asked 6 people in fact.
No one wanted the job.

Personally, (not that anyone cares, of course) I'm rather disappointed in the whole mess.

I've noticed a trend however on other boards ninja sections that ours is also following...that being the 'pissing in the punchbowl' syndrome. Now, we've done what we can to accomidate the different opinions and perspectives, however despite seperating the sections, the battles still wage.

We are left with few options:
1- Ban ninja related discussions all together.
2- Ban "neo" ninja discussion
3- Roll all 3 ninja sections back into JMA-General
4- Find a level headed moderator who can follow things and devote the proper amount of effort keeping things sane in here.
5- Let folks continue to prove their true inner person.

Its really simple - If you want to keep the forums, stop the bullshit and make em someplace worth while to read and participate in.

Some suggestions:
- Whose doing seminars? Where, When, on What?
- How about some reviews of the various books, tapes, etc?
- Anyone up for doing some interviews with notables?
- What about notable moments in history?
- Evolution of techniques, or lineages, or family trees?

And, please...no gradeschool "I cant tell you that cuz someone else might steal it" crap.

It's up to you folks to decide the future of this section.
 

Enson

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Kaith Rustaz said:
And, please...no gradeschool "I cant tell you that cuz someone else might steal it" crap.

It's up to you folks to decide the future of this section.
well as for me and mine...? i really have seen an improvement on these forums. i mean when i first got here along with others i was bashed on for a while... kinda like being jumped in.;)

i do agree that "i can't tell you" or "pm me if you want the truth" is junk and should not be allowed.
peace
 

Cryozombie

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I dont want to defend the behavior of this forum, but in response to Kaith's comment about this behavior being common on ninjutsu forums, you need to consider the sources of this... All arts are plagued by a certain amount of "bogus" schools, negative press, and fraudulent instructors, but think about these questions for a few minutes:

Can you name 10 movies that depict a totaly negative or grossly inacurate picture of Kenpo? Taekwondo? Isshinryu Karate?

I can give you 20 about Ninjutsu.

Can you name 5 MAJOR organizations teaching, I dunno, say Taekwondo and calling it Kempo, Or Wing Chun, or Judo?

I can name 5 of them for Ninjutsu.

Say "Kempo" or "Wing Chun" "Systema" to the average joe, and he goes: "Really whats that"

Say "Ninja" to them, and they go "Yeah, pal, right"

What it comes down to, IMHO, is that its a hard art to have legitimacy in... its considered, at best, a "Joke" in most martial arts circles, and a "fantasy" in everyone elses mind. We study it and work to have a legitimate place in the arts, and some positive recognition, and then these organizations and people who come along and just go "NINJA's, RIGHT HERE, GET YOUR NINJA's" and then bandy about wierd (at best) claims of things like being a "secret sect of Russian Ninjas" or the "Mystical orgins of the ninja, as taught to my master by a dream tengu who appeared to him in his sleep" do more harm than good... and then their followers, who blindly believe these claims that could NEVER be proven continue to propagate the negative image, and soon, you have the "Legitimate" practitioners mad that their art is being made to look bad, AGAIN... and they get angry.

The damage to our art is done... I dont think their is a solution. People Like Kim, Dux, etc... and the mass media like "Enter the Ninja" and "Ninja III: The Domination" have forever soiled the art in the minds of the world...
 
A

AaronLucia

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Ok...how bout we all agree to disagree..

Someone may be right and the other truly wrong..but just get along!

I don't want to lose my Ninjutsu thread!
 

Don Roley

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Kaith Rustaz said:
We are left with few options:
1- Ban ninja related discussions all together.
2- Ban "neo" ninja discussion
3- Roll all 3 ninja sections back into JMA-General
4- Find a level headed moderator who can follow things and devote the proper amount of effort keeping things sane in here.
5- Let folks continue to prove their true inner person.

You left out the option of dropping the one guy who is causing the most trouble right now by doing things like posting about 16th century historical figures in the MODERN ninjutsu section, insulting others that call for references and disrupting, etc whenever he can.

To add to to what Technopunk said about the amount of frauds in ninjutsu, I can tell you what the forum is going to be like just because of the nature of the beast.

First you are going to have someone create a thread asking "have you ever heard of these guys?"

Next you are going to have several people talk about how no one in Japan has heard of this supposably Japanese martial art, give links to threads where the problems with their stories have been discussed on fraud busting sites, people detailing the criminal record of the head teacher, etc.

Now things might just end right there. If you make a search of the word "Konigun" or "Jimmy Wennburg" you can see just how this goes on. But there may be further steps added later on.

The third step is when sometime later a newly registered poster will say that he just found the thread and is here to clear up some misconceptions. He will make several unsupported statements such as , "we are well known in Japan despite what has been said here, and our hanshi just had lunch with emporer Hirohito last week."

Then you are going to have a few people ask for some sort of proof to their claims, as well as some people pointing out problems with their story- such as the fact Hirohito died over a decade ago.

The response from the representative will be along the lines of, "who are you to judge me" and "I don't have to prove anything to you." He will try to turn tht etables, distract, insult and do anything other than deal honestly with provable facts and logic. There may be several other new members join up to support him in attacking those that say they don't believe the stories they tell.

And then things get bad.

The one thing I could reccomend is that any time an art that claims to be from Japan can not be found in Japan or provide a link to Japan is discussed, the threads go to the "horror stories" section as fact as they are found. There are a few people on Martialtalk who live in Japan and read the language but do not study ninjutsu and so can be objective. If they can not find a reference in Japan, then the call should be that the claimnents are frauds until they choose to show proof.

The modern ninjutsu section should be open to discussion of arts that do not claim to be from Japan such as Toshindo, Rick Tew's system, Ralph Severe's system, etc. Discussions on comparing techniques, philosophues, etc can take place without the need for them to conform to the definition of Japan as long as everyone is clear on that. History of the ninja SHOULD NOT be discussed there.

Things that are stated should be allowed to be challenged and proof demanded. If you don't allow this, then martialtalk is going to be swamped with the silliest theories and stories this side of the old Ashida Kim message board. If someone refuses to back up what they say, then everyone else has the right to say they do not beleive the person making the claim.

And people that challenge other to physical fights, post inappropriate threads in the wrong section, etc, should have their right to post suspended or be banned.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Regarding the resident nutcases, It is not against our policies to be wrong, insane, or even a jerk. That said, disruptive influences are often 'asked to leave'.

And people that challenge other to physical fights, post inappropriate threads in the wrong section, etc, should have their right to post suspended or be banned.
Warnings are usually issued, and the physicality crap usually results in vacations -IF- we are informed promptly. It's hard to act on a 4 month old threat. (Hint- Report to Mod is there for a reason.)

Things that are stated should be allowed to be challenged and proof demanded. If you don't allow this, then martialtalk is going to be swamped with the silliest theories and stories this side of the old Ashida Kim message board. If someone refuses to back up what they say, then everyone else has the right to say they do not beleive the person making the claim.
Challenges are ok. Fraud-Busting is not. As to the silliest theories, I've read the 'stuff' thats been posted. We're already swamped with crap. We'd prefer the real info. Problem is, most folks are either too busy arguing, chasing tails (or tales), playing "I gotta sekret" or lurking do bother drowning the BS out with content.

The division you ask for is there now.
- General for all,
- Traditional for verified Japanese
- Modern for the spinoffs, variations, interpretations and in name only folks.


Simply put, the mechanism is there...people need to use it.
If not, in a few days, it won't matter any more.

If it's fact - back it up with references.
If it's theory - clearly state it is such.
If it is history - cite your sources
If it is technique, concept, lineage - document your references.

If I were to grade these forums on a scholastic level, y'all get an F-

I've read Hatsumi and Hayes books....some may not like them, find them flawed, etc, but I quite enjoyed them. I found them a good introduction, with historical info I hadn't seen elsewhere. If those in Japan would like to verify statements, translate documents, or otherwise contribute to the idea of making MT the leader in Ninjutsu Information, then, hey, I'm all for it.

But if you're (general you're) only here to stir up trouble, argue, complain, harass or otherwise disrupt things, your time here is limited.

Membership is a privilage, not a right.
A member who is rude, excessively negative, or disruptive may receive a warning or may be suspended or banned immediately.
That applies to everyone.
 

Cryozombie

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WOO HOO I GET AN F!

Just like highschool all over again. :D
 
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Bob Hubbard

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There have been some people who have tried to guide things, build things, make this something special.

Those aren't the one's I'm complaining about.... it's because of them, that we've been this patient. Hell, -I- want this section to continue, to grow, to thrive.

Not be just another spot folks can argue. Too many of those out there now, y'know?


Now.... ignoring the ancient russian ninjas, armed with klingon laser weapons and romulan cloaking devices, what good -is- in here that is worth saving?
What are folks here up to doing to save these sections, and make them 1000 times better?
 

Don Roley

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Kaith Rustaz said:
Challenges are ok. Fraud-Busting is not.

Can I get a clarification of the differences and some examples of each?

I was under the impression that things such as starting threads about other members exposing them as frauds, hijacking threads to attack the charecter, etc was the definition of fraud-busting.

But a recent thread had Seig saying it was close to fraud-busting. The thing was, it was really a case of one member making silly statements and several others pointing out there was no proof, the member refused to give acceptable proof to back up what he said, was contradicting himself, was contradicting known facts, that his personal history did not endear trust for his word alone without further proof, etc. The guy has been left alone in a few threads where he has merely stated his opinion or posted in threads that were clearly not related to history or anything like that.

So, when demanding proof to certain statements, what are the rules? It seems to me that in a court of law or academic debate the source of the evidence is allowed to be evaluated for trustworthiness and acceptablity. If a poster refuses to give proof, or quotes a fraud such as Ashida Kim or Frank Dux, are we not allowed to point out the charecter upon which the statements are based on if there is no other proof put forth?

You see just how delicate this can be and how it would be best if there were some clear examples given.
 
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