Bujinkan/TSD: Compare/Contrast

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Gary Arthur

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Ninravus: Takamatsu has an autobiography ? wow when did he write that.
Also i am not saying that Hatsumi sensei is teaching fluff. What Hatsumi is teaching I believe is very high level. So high level in fact that many cannot get what he is doing. And because of that a beginner can actually get lost in the early stages, because of what Hatsumi Sensei is teaching. TO-SHIN DO seems to teach basic techniques for beginners and advanced techniques to black belt.
Does this mean that other students of Hatsumi Sensei can't teach the basics. No of course not. But as an example this punch from the hip is great for beginners, but unfortunately so many people seem not to move beyond this.
You also mention about herbal medicine and castle infiltration not being important today. Well exactly, just like studying how people fought in the 16th century is unimportant today, except from an historical point of view. But we can study Ninjutsu that works today, just like we can study modern medicines and drugs, and alternative therapies (Amatsu Tatara etc), and of course myself as a Security consultant I have to know all about microwave fences, PIR detectors, and EAS barriers etc. As well as terrorist threats (one of my sites being a military base). Is'nt this Fortress penetration, but in reverse (remember everything has an ura and omote)
Finally you mention about groundfighting not being part of the Bujinkan. Well do you think defences from automatic pistols were in the sylabus until Hatsumi put them there. You can also see the art of the golf club and umbrella in Ninjutsu, but these things ar'nt exactly old style techniques.
Ninjutsu moves with the time, or at least it should do. If we don't allow it to move forward then unfortunately it may just become an anachronism to a bygone age.

Don Roley: Try looking at the Daikomyosai videos for this punch from the hip. The Kukishinden and Shinden Fudo ryu Daikomyosai have a number in there.
Also I did not saying muggers don't throw punches the way they did two decades ago. Don't put words in my mouth. What i said was that today wrestlers and Gracie jujutsu is a threat to the Ninja, where they were unheard of several years ago but people still throw punches.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Gary Arthur said:
Ninravus: Takamatsu has an autobiography ? wow when did he write that.
:anic:
Can't find it right now, it used to be on www.mizunagare.com but that site seems to have been hacked.

Gary Arthur said:
What Hatsumi is teaching I believe is very high level. So high level in fact that many cannot get what he is doing. And because of that a beginner can actually get lost in the early stages, because of what Hatsumi Sensei is teaching. TO-SHIN DO seems to teach basic techniques for beginners and advanced techniques to black belt.
If one needs to be told constantly that the solution to this problem is kihon, kihon, kihon and some more kihon one probably doesn't have much business with Hatsumi sensei's teachings to begin with.

Gary Arthur said:
Does this mean that other students of Hatsumi Sensei can't teach the basics. No of course not. But as an example this punch from the hip is great for beginners, but unfortunately so many people seem not to move beyond this.
Are you suggesting that it is impossible to fix this within the Bujinkan?

Gary Arthur said:
But we can study Ninjutsu that works today, just like we can study modern medicines and drugs, and alternative therapies (Amatsu Tatara etc), and of course myself as a Security consultant I have to know all about microwave fences, PIR detectors, and EAS barriers etc. As well as terrorist threats (one of my sites being a military base). Is'nt this Fortress penetration, but in reverse (remember everything has an ura and omote)
That is indeed more ninjutsu than what Hatsumi sensei is teaching. You seem to have your ninjutsu needs covered by outside sources, so all that's left for you to discover within the Takamatsuden would be taijutsu principles, right?

Gary Arthur said:
Finally you mention about groundfighting not being part of the Bujinkan. Well do you think defences from automatic pistols were in the sylabus until Hatsumi put them there. You can also see the art of the golf club and umbrella in Ninjutsu, but these things ar'nt exactly old style techniques.
It's all about Hatsumi sensei being familiar enough with the principles he's imparting. Techniques are unimportant.

Gary Arthur said:
Ninjutsu moves with the time, or at least it should do. If we don't allow it to move forward then unfortunately it may just become an anachronism to a bygone age.
And whom, praytell, is the one trying to prevent the Takamatsuden arts from evolving?

Gary Arthur said:
What i said was that today wrestlers and Gracie jujutsu is a threat to the Ninja, where they were unheard of several years ago but people still throw punches.
And by "ninja" you mean...?
 

Don Roley

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Gary Arthur said:
Don Roley: Try looking at the Daikomyosai videos for this punch from the hip. The Kukishinden and Shinden Fudo ryu Daikomyosai have a number in there.

Uh, in Shinden Fudo ryu for example- you always begin in a natural stnace and thus the hands are down by the hip- special case. And the punch is more often a sneaky little things sliping up under the other guy's radar as has been pointed out and not as you represent it. You are misrepresenting what people do. You just said "this punch from the hip is great for beginners, but unfortunately so many people seem not to move beyond this." But begginers do not learn this way of punching in any Bujinkan dojo I have ever been in.

I have to conclude that your knowledge of Bujinkan is rather shallow if you walked away with this impression. You may have been to a Tai Kai, etc, but there is that great line about gorillas reading philosophy from A Fish Called Wanda. Perhaps if your teacher (whoever he was) had bothered to point out the correct way to punch from the beggining you may not have this impression and stop trying to convince people that people are taught to punch in the Bujinkan from the hip as a matter of course.

Gary Arthur said:
Also I did not saying muggers don't throw punches the way they did two decades ago. Don't put words in my mouth. What i said was that today wrestlers and Gracie jujutsu is a threat to the Ninja, where they were unheard of several years ago but people still throw punches.

You're training to beat gracie guys instead of the guys you will see on the street? I think your understanding of what goes on in the street and your training focus is a bit off.

And just because you may not be aware of dealing with attacks on the ground does not mean they are not there. If you had a bit more experince you may understand this. Look at the suwariwaza from the Takagi and the stuff starting from fudoza in the Shinden fudo ryu to see the starting points of what we learn. We don't take the time to learn how to do many things the Gracies do and instead concentrate on dealing with attacks as best we can and get to our feet as soon as possible.
 

Kizaru

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Gary Arthur said:
Ninravus: Takamatsu has an autobiography ? wow when did he write that..
I've always heard that Takamatsu sensei wrote an autobiography/book of memoirs and called the "Handbook on Happiness". To the best of my knowledge, this has never been translated from Japanese, nor published.

Gary Arthur said:
Does this mean that other students of Hatsumi Sensei can't teach the basics. No of course not. .
I agree. Learn basics from the senior students and shihan, learn advanced concepts from senior shihan and Hatsumi sensei...no disagreement there.
Do some people choose not to do that? Sure. Who does it hurt the most? Me? You? Hatsumi sensei?

Gary Arthur said:
But as an example this punch from the hip is great for beginners, but unfortunately so many people seem not to move beyond this. .
Maybe I'm blind or just plain stupid; I don't see where this "punch from the hip" is a sticking point for people. In the training I've experienced, we train against punches and kicks from all different angles as well as throws, chokes, attacks from behind and fighting from the ground.


Gary Arthur said:
You can also see the art of the golf club and umbrella in Ninjutsu, but these things ar'nt exactly old style techniques.
Ninjutsu moves with the time, or at least it should do. If we don't allow it to move forward then unfortunately it may just become an anachronism to a bygone age..
That's a good question. The spirit of "ninjutsu" has always been to take everyday items you have at hand and apply them to the taijutsu skills you've got. Golf clubs didn't exist in Japan 300 years ago, but this idea of applying what you've got at hand did. Today the concept is still applied with the golf club, umbrella, laytex jutte, iron or ice cream cone. So what's more important, the tools themselves, or the concepts and applied skills that make them work?
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Kizaru said:
I've always heard that Takamatsu sensei wrote an autobiography/book of memoirs and called the "Handbook on Happiness". To the best of my knowledge, this has never been translated from Japanese, nor published.
No, these are separate texts as far as I know. And there is an English translation of his (reportedly unfinished) autobiography, I've read it myself.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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We're not talking about the same thing here. I'm talking about the autobiography Takamatsu sensei himself wrote, it's only about three pages long in English.
 
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Gary Arthur

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Your quote to me.

Originally Posted by Gary Arthur
We know for example that he mastered many forms of Chinese martial art, and also a Korean one. Now some of those techniques that he learnt are probably in the system that we study today.

Read his autobiography and you might be inclined to change your opinion.

If this autobiography is only three pages long in English, then I wouldn't exactly call it an autobiography. And if it is only three pages long it shouldn't take you long to find the point you want me to read in this extremely rare text and enlighten us all or at least give us a quote to back up what your saying.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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I already told you that it was incomplete. I seem to recall having read something along the lines of:

"During my travels throughout the mainland I fought a man who was very skilled and knowledgeable about many techniques. After I beat him, we sat down and talked. Indeed, he knew many techniques and many ways of stopping techniques. The names of these techniques I have long since forgotten. He truly did have a lot of technical knowledge, but like most others his technique was not useful, because of the way he used it.
If you know the name of a bird, it doesn't tell you anything about the bird itself."

"In China I made a living by teaching martial arts. I had more than a hundred students to which I taught much about war, but also about peace. I fought many matches against high ranking martial artists, some of them ended in draws but I never once lost."

"Some Chinese martial artists speak of breathing, but I tell you that if you want to control your breathing it will never be a natural breath. I have met several martial artists who claim that their breath is the source of their power and if that is the case then I am very happy for them! If they ever have to fight for their lives for more than three hours it would be nice to see them control their breath throughout the bout. Too much air makes the mind and the vision unfocused so be careful."


Note that these are not direct quotes but only parts that I still have in my head.

So what if there are similar techniques in Chinese and Japanese systems - how would you be able to tell if they weren't already there before Takamatsu sensei's encounters in China and Korea?
 

cypher

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Anyone train in Bujinkan in Kitchener Ontario? I'd like to start but would love to meet with someone.
 

nitflegal

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Uh, in Shinden Fudo ryu for example- you always begin in a natural stnace and thus the hands are down by the hip- special case. And the punch is more often a sneaky little things sliping up under the other guy's radar as has been pointed out and not as you represent it. You are misrepresenting what people do. You just said "this punch from the hip is great for beginners, but unfortunately so many people seem not to move beyond this." But begginers do not learn this way of punching in any Bujinkan dojo I have ever been in.

I have to conclude that your knowledge of Bujinkan is rather shallow if you walked away with this impression. You may have been to a Tai Kai, etc, but there is that great line about gorillas reading philosophy from A Fish Called Wanda. Perhaps if your teacher (whoever he was) had bothered to point out the correct way to punch from the beggining you may not have this impression and stop trying to convince people that people are taught to punch in the Bujinkan from the hip as a matter of course.

I wonder if the disconnect is based on one of the old training drills from way back when. I remember as a rank beginner (as opposed to now as a mildly rank beginner. . .) using the punch from the hip as a tool to train me to use the hips to throw the punch as opposed to drilling it in with the shoulders. It also worked as a tool to emphasize body positioning. I've also been shown how to use it as a hidden punch as well and of course some variants on the Sanshin. However, the basic punches that I've been trained on come from a more neutral position in the stance with the striking arm sliding under the withdrawing or defending one. Why would you telegraph a punch form jumonji by dropping it from you chin level all the way back to the hip? I'm curious, outside of Boshiken from the hip in Fu no kata how many people actually punch from the hip with any regularity?

Matt
 

savagek

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Hello all,

Insted of calling it a lunge punch, punching from the hip, Noda City floater maybe restudy Ken Tai Ichi Jo ~ Body and Weapon move as one or the steps that make up Inashi Gata... Know the theory, application , and then go out and apply.

Please go back and retrain and relearn the basics of the Bujinkan.

Respectfully,

Ken Savage
www.winmartialarts.com
 

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