Is kata and bunkai a waste of time?

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Are you implying that martial arts which do not have kata are quick to learn but low quality? If you are then with all due respect you are dead wrong. There are plenty out there which are excellent and which do not have anything you would recognize as kata or kuen.

No.
Rather, my rant is in regards to trying to take a short-cut to obtain skill.

I'm not in favor of discounting or dismissing anything. I will respect the wisdom of those who went before me and do my best to learn from what they thought was important.

However, If someone came from a Kata based art and decided to dismiss Kata as useless or attempt to replace it with another vehicle - I think it would be more than likely that person is practicing/teaching an inferior version of that art.

_Don Flatt

 

[Grenadier]

The kata are a vital part of many Karate systems. Through the kata, you work on perfecting the mechanics of your techniques, and learn how to apply them in a way that's relatively easy to learn. Practicing kata, IMHO, helps you get better with your kumite.

If you look at the folks who compete at the national level, it's not unusual to see those who have placed in the top spots in kata, to do a similar job in kumite.

Does this mean that kata is the *only* way to learn and refine your techniques? Of course not. Many systems either don't have kata, or practice very few of them, if any. Does this mean that such systems are junk? I wouldn't say so. It's just that they choose not to use a certain type of tool, that's all.

Even if I don't agree with not using that excellent tool, I won't argue with the results generated by successful systems. After all, their ends do justify their means, just as ours do.

If you want to use kata to help your training, then by all means, use it. It's a well established tool. If you want to use some other tool to accomplish the task, by all means, then go ahead. I'll stick with what works for me.

 

[Twin Fist]

Kata is what seperates the martial arts from the fighting systems.

 

[tellner]

Kata is what seperates the martial arts from the fighting systems.

Eh? How do you figure that?

 

[Steel Tiger]

Kata is what seperates the martial arts from the fighting systems.

I would like to ask - what do you consider the differentiating features of the two?

 

[exile]

I see the contrast between combat systems so far as formal patterns are concerned as a kind of parallel to the difference between two different ways of teaching morality/virtue/ethics etc. You can simply come out and tell people how they should behave, preach at them, specify exactly what they should and should not do. Or you can offer them parables which illustrate exactly the same canon of behavior, but which disguise their message somewhat and require people to interpret them. And in cases of the latter, you may well find multiple, different, but equally applicable and commendable interpretations of the same parable.

Combat hapkido doesn't have kata, but it has drills—huge numbers of very sharp two and three move combinations that you practice with a partner. As I understand it, Ueshiba's aikido also did not employ kata as an instructional tool. The partner drills these systems provide are literal instructions on what to do when, in case you're attacked; the technique of the system is therefore explicit, embedded in the knowledge of how to respond with any one of dozens of different possible responses to just about any kind of attacking move imaginable. These kinds of systems operate with combat sermons and lists of commandments. The karate-based arts, with their kata and related forms, or the CMAs with their hsings, offer you, in constrast, parables of defensive combat techniques, each one composed of subepisodes which have, taken singly, multiple interpretations, the most effective of which from the experienced fighter's point of view are well-hidden under the simple block-punch-kick appearance of the moves. Much of the previous discussion on MT that I referred the OPer to is about how to decode the kata (in the general sense) and extract the meaning, guided by the particular strategic principles of the art. The difference isn't so much a matter of content, as I see it, but of instructional technique—pedagogy, in short.

But none of it is worth a damn from the point of view of live, real-time SD unless it's practiced in a deadly-serious way with a partner who is willing to assume the persona of a dangerous, vicious attacker bent on hurting the defender, possibly gravely. There are ways to make such partner training of kata techs less dangerous, but the hazards for both the attacker and the defender are non-trivial. That's also going to be true in any of the fighting systems that don't have kata, however. Combat Hapkido, Krav Maga, or anything else designed to save your life, under extreme violence, require brutally realistic training to make the techniques encoded in their drills a reflexive tool immediately available when unavoidable danger meets you. The difference in the fighting systems is just that this has always been understood, I think, in those systems that we think of as 'combatives', like KM (and Hapkido, to some extent). The message fell by the wayside with many of the TMAs, however—but people like Iain Abernethy, Geoff Thompson, Peyton Quinn and others are teaching us how to bring it back.

 

[kailat]

Interesting question; I'd like to add here. There needs to be a foundation in whatever it is you study.

For me, my foundation was Kara'te. I hated Kata for many years. It got so bad that it had made me drop out of karate immedietly after I recieved my black belt. I dropped Kara'te and didn't look back. I went and started to study more devestating arts, much like the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA), Indonesian Martial Arts (IMA), Bruce Lee Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, and dabbled in other arts. One thing that I found later on, was that my foundation in Kara'te had fomed me to be a great martial artist in whole. Now granted that did not completly over-ride all the arts I studied, but I felt there was a positive reinforcment there.

It wasnt until many years later I had ran into a great martial artist, and we quickly become friends. He was and still is by far an excellent FMA player. He opened my eyes one day to KATA and what it really, truely represented. I had never seen that part before. The actual "Bunkai"..I then later started really developing a rapport for Kata. I found a missed love for Kara'te and Kata within itself. So in truth I think its soley the decision left to the practicioner. One thing I know for sure, is once I solidified w/ myself that Kata was meaningful after all and not just ran fr some dumb belt, or a pretty shiny dumb trophey that it actually held meaning. I THEN was reborn as a martial artist. I began to open my eyes and seeing things for what they were and it just "clicked"....

I now use isolated Kata movement many times to help me teach self defense, or to show how they relate from one system to another. Bunkai to me is like chapters in a book. KATA being the book. Movements tell the story, and bunkai depicts the chapter of the book in whole.

Now, in conjunction with what I have just said, is Kata necessary? Not in all arts, nor do all individuals need it, want it, or have to have it. You can learn functional fighting w/o ever learning a kata. People do it every day. I feel martial arts has evolved beyone KATA today vs. 40, 50, + years ago. But these so called "combative" arts had to have been developed from somewhere right? They just didn't appear!! THEY CAME FROM KATA at some point, in a traditional martial art. ie Chinese Gung Fu, Okinawa Kara'te / To'de.

What was acceptable & useful 50+ yrs ago, is not as useful today.

so if you personally feel Kata is useless than it more than likely will be.. Because until you have the revelation of truth, it will really not be meaningful to your training. It really will be just a waste of time.

 

[MMAfreak]

I wasn't trying to get an argument going with this thread. I really do want to have opinions from others. It seems that if you are a traditionalist you are going to support kata no matter what. If you started into martial arts within the past few years and only had MMA training you would dismiss kata right away.

I probably should not have titled this thread "is kata and bunkai a waste of time?", because I don't think that any learning is a waste, rather I should ask whether there are better ways to learn martial arts than kata. I personally think that there are ways to learn fighting skills far faster than with kata...but that doesn't mean that people who have learned through kata are less skilled. I have been happily surprised that there are many styles that use kata and many that don't...neither seems to have all the answers.

I guess I am probably a "bad American" in that I see the time and money I spent over the years and wish I could have done things differently. I have been a part of so many discussions over the last few years about how we as "lazy Americans" are always looking for the fastest way to learn something. I guess I would say that I fit into that category...and I don't apologize for it. I just happen to think that some of the things we do are done out of tradition rather than necessity. I'll leave it at that. Thanks for all the responses.

 

[girlbug2]

Lots of great points made by tellner and others before me. May I also relate to you some of my personal observations?

I studied Kenpo for a few years before switching to Krav Maga for various reasons. KM has no uniforms, no katas and is very informal in general. It is a very aggressive and effective streetfighting style. After 3 months in Krav I do feel more effective as a fighter, as though my training is advancing more quickly than it did in Kenpo. However. I also realized three things:

1. My Kenpo training with katas and numerous variations of techniques gave me a spectacular bag of skills to use, mixed in with KM or alone, and allowed me to be more creative and spontaneous.

2. My Kata training specifically gave me an almost unconscious application of proper breathing and stance which has not yet been emphasized strongly (I feel) at my KM Level One classes. As a result, I have unusually powerful strikes for my current rank.

3. I really do miss Katas.

In the end, there is something to be said for the artistic and the traditional sides of martial arts that goes lacking somewhat when Katas are absent from one's skill set. Forms give you that sense of appreciation for the ideal you are striving toward. I don't think it is possible to be a truly well-balanced martial artist without them.

After all, isn't being well-balanced what we are all trying to achieve each in our own ways?

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Katas are patterns and choreographed. The bunkai is choreographed. That doesn't mean they aren't effective for teaching technique, muscle memory and finess but it has to be stressed that any of the techniques are interchangeable for any given situation but there will be few "good" moves. I think too many get comfortable with a kata more concerned with "doing it right" than developing the cultivated "disceplined but despirate" attitude necessary to survive a life and death situation. I find kata is about the visualization, a moving meditation taking advantage of the brain's alpha-wave to better develop muscle memory. Let's face it, in combat finess goes out the window which is why it's so important to develop the muscle memory. I personally find that for a technique to work optimally in karate it depends on too many factors being perfect. I find many martial arts to be much more practical and less dependant on perfect technique to be used effectively, not to say that karate's not effective, it's just harder, IMO, to use effectively, compared to kickboxing, for example (IMOIMOIMO), not having to keep your rear heel on the floor allows for fluidity, flexibility and, IMO, much more power with the cross or hook at a (supposed) cost of stability. A lot of my problems with karate are based on lack of gastroc flexibility causing my footwork to suffer immensely. As much as I have respect for kata I find sparring to give you a better idea of the variable mechanics and improvisation if not a good way to train certain aspects of the psychology of violence.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.

I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training. I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.

I am not saying that one style is better, but it sure has made a BIG difference for me in the sparring/application of JKD & jiu jitsu vs. the repetition of kata/bunkai.

Is it possible to be an expert in kata and still not be able to protect yourself against the simplest attacks? In kempo we would break apart the kata and work on individual applications of the moves, and I thought I was starting to really get a good understanding of self-defense in the process. Then one day I am fooling around with a guy who is a wrester and he makes me look really bad. So I get together with a couple others with JKD backgrounds and do some light sparring and I realized that I would have gotten my rear-end handed to me in a real confrontation. Kata did not prepare me AT ALL for the types of attacks that would happen in a real confrontation.

If you can't defend yourself by training Kata you are doing somthing wrong.
Sean

 

[tellner]

If you can't defend yourself by training Kata you are doing somthing wrong.

More likely his teacher is doing something wrong.

 

[chinto]

the simple answer is NO IT IS NOT... but this is an old argument. there is an incredible amount of information in kata, your job is to find it and find the bunkai that is there too. there should be a minimum of 5 techniques after the basic kihon one for all the traditional old kata.
just watched a 25 year old video of a man who trains in the same system as I do.. he threw and locked on the ground and standing .. and choked and of course struck... and could have broken and worse in that demo.... but it is after all rude to brake your partner. I train in a traditional Okinawan karate system, and all these things have always been there in it! some will try and tell you they have not, but they do not know what they are talking about. its all there in the kata!

 

[exile]

I agree with chinto: it's all there. But... and it's a big one... you aren't going to benefit from it unless (i) you learn to read the kata in a way that lets you see the hard, practical combat applications that were intended (and maybe some good ones that weren't) and (ii) you train these applications in a dedicated way. That doesn't mean rote practice of the kata so that you have a beautifully choreographed martial dance at the end. It means, you make shrewd deductions about what martial moves the movements in the kata are instructing you to carry out, and you find a training partner who will carry out attack initiations on you that that sequence of moves you discovered was designed to counter. And your training partner had better be trying fairly hard to make contact with you. A compliant training partner is doing you no favors.

Think of the kata, or similar patterns in other MAs, as something like the score of a concerto by a great composer. The beauty of the piece is there, and the information on how to get it and make it visible. But you need to do two things in order to get there: first, you need to learn to read music. Second, once you understand the notes you're supposed to play, you need to practice your part as though you were involved in a real performance, every time you practice. A kata is the 'score' of a set of effective self defense scenarios, but the same requirements have to be met as with the musical score, if you want to derive the benefit of the kata. There's no other way to do it.

 

[MJS]

I wasn't trying to get an argument going with this thread. I really do want to have opinions from others. It seems that if you are a traditionalist you are going to support kata no matter what. If you started into martial arts within the past few years and only had MMA training you would dismiss kata right away.

I probably should not have titled this thread "is kata and bunkai a waste of time?", because I don't think that any learning is a waste, rather I should ask whether there are better ways to learn martial arts than kata. I personally think that there are ways to learn fighting skills far faster than with kata...but that doesn't mean that people who have learned through kata are less skilled. I have been happily surprised that there are many styles that use kata and many that don't...neither seems to have all the answers.

I think alot of it comes down to how someone trains something. If all someone does is kata, never adding in any live training or perhaps working kata with a body, you probably won't get much out of it. Like I said, it all comes down to how someone trains something.

I'll also repeat that kata, IMO, is just 1 part of the puzzle. I feel that you still need to add in the other aspects of training, in addition to the kata. Sparring, scenario drills, mult. attackers, weapons....all things that should be worked during training.

I guess I am probably a "bad American" in that I see the time and money I spent over the years and wish I could have done things differently. I have been a part of so many discussions over the last few years about how we as "lazy Americans" are always looking for the fastest way to learn something. I guess I would say that I fit into that category...and I don't apologize for it. I just happen to think that some of the things we do are done out of tradition rather than necessity. I'll leave it at that. Thanks for all the responses.

I reflect back on my training years and often wonder what things would be like had I trained differently. Should I have started in a different art? Should I have worked certain areas more and sooner, rather than later? The questions are endless. I've made quite a few changes from how I used to train, to how I train now. I give credit to alot of the MMA and RBSD people, for giving me some new ideas to play with.

 

[MJS]

More likely his teacher is doing something wrong.

So very true. I've had my share of teachers who had no idea what the kata was all about. "Its done this way, well........because thats the way its done." was an asnwer I heard way too many times. Fortunately, I found people who could explain and give more detail.

 

[exile]

So very true. I've had my share of teachers who had no idea what the kata was all about. "Its done this way, well........because thats the way its done." was an asnwer I heard way too many times. Fortunately, I found people who could explain and give more detail.

It's important to bear in mind, always, that the decline of kata as a core teaching tool for the combat content of karate and related arts began long, long ago in Japan, with the large-size university club classes that Funakoshi started... and maybe even longer ago than that (I've read speculation that Itosu experimented with individual kihon techniques and floor drill exercises in planning the incorporation of karate in the Okinawan school system, in preference to kata-based instruction, in the early 20th c.). And as Higaki reports in his recent book on bunkai for the Pinan/Heian kata set, the expat Okinawans were none too keen on teaching the Japanese the deepest technical applications of the kata movement subsequences. So the rot was setting in quite some time back. And with each generation, the loss of information increases, of course, all other things being equal....

 

[kidswarrior]

I think alot of it comes down to how someone trains something. If all someone does is kata, never adding in any live training or perhaps working kata with a body, you probably won't get much out of it.

I think this brings up a point that we've glossed over in these many discussions of whether forms/kata are real fighting tools or just a workout or perhaps a show. Namely, what do we mean by *kata/forms*? I believe many, many MAists hear/use the word and assume it means solo practice in the air. If that's the presumptive denotation, then of course it has limited-to-no-use in defending against a true, vicious attacker.

On the other hand, if we assume the meaning of kata/forms is inclusive of live body/resistance training, experimentation, and even invention of applications which as exile says perhaps the original inventors may not have intended, but appear to us because we are following the principles they encoded, then that's a whole different animal than a a solo dance.

I believe until we decide which of these denotations we have in mind when we use that charged word, kata, we're talking about many different things and assuming they're the same, which they are not.

 

[tellner]

It's important to bear in mind, always, that the decline of kata as a core teaching tool for the combat content of karate and related arts began long, long ago in Japan, with the large-size university club classes that Funakoshi started...

It's hard to overestimate the effects of Japanese social changes at the time. A couple spring to mind immediately. Japan was gearing up for militarization. Large groups of people doing the same thing in unison and unquestioning obedience were more important than personal development and deep understanding. People were moving from towns to cities.

Then too, Karate wasn't considered a martial art in the same way as many others. That's why it thrived during the American Occupation while so many others withered and Judo and Kendo had to get quick makeovers. That perception had to have altered the way that kata was done and the way it was viewed. Kata as performance art or athletic competition fits very nicely with Karate as sport and quaint cultural practice.

the expat Okinawans were none too keen on teaching the Japanese the deepest technical applications of the kata movement subsequences. So the rot was setting in quite some time back. And with each generation, the loss of information increases, of course, all other things being equal....

Yes, "Okinawans and other criminals" as some Japanese at the time referred to them. There was a lot of really vicious prejudice. And the information decay goes further back. Karate had been significantly desinized (is that a real word?). Even the written name went from "Chinese boxing" to "Empty hand". How much was lost or altered there? For that matter, how much did the Okinawans get of the parent Chinese systems? It's hard to tell.

 

[dancingalone]

Karate had been significantly desinized (is that a real word?). Even the written name went from "Chinese boxing" to "Empty hand". How much was lost or altered there? For that matter, how much did the Okinawans get of the parent Chinese systems? It's hard to tell.

Well, I don't look on Okinawan karate as a Chinese art at all. I know what is known as Okinawan goju-ryu today for example has significantly diverged from what Kanryu Higashionna brought back from the Fukien province of China. And that's fine with me. There's plenty of locks, takedowns, body conditioning, and striking to keep me busy without delving after the Crane kung fu Holy Grail many Okinawan karate enthusiasts seem to hunger for.

Sure, there's been some knowledge lost from the transmission from China to Okinawa. But there's also been knowledge gained and added to karate too, notably the native Ryukyu wrestling arts as well as smatterings of jujutsu added from "mainland" Japan. Kobudo is also a huge component of the curriculum and that's largely native Okinawan in nature as I understand it.