Is It All In Decline?

[teekin]

Please excuse me for saying this, realize I am very new to all MA's and a great deal of it I find downright odd and baffling ( like this " Sensei doesn't teach you every thing he knows " crap. Why the hell not! Sensei needs to get over himself and pass the knowledge on. Unless he passes the knowledge on he has Failed as a Sensei)but;
stop whining that no one will ever see it, make 30 or 40 videos of some smoking cool fights of full contact Karate and air them. U-TUBE. You have global access. You have a data base here of how many? Post a video. Post a still series.
Where there is a will there is a way. Just Do it! Lori M

 

[Kwanjang]

That is not necessarily so. Not that TMA are not effective, but being around for a long time is not proof of effectiveness.

I would disagree with that statement on many levels. The martial art warriors of antiquity proved their proficiency with empty hands and with martial weapons on the battle field for thousands of years Being around a longtime adds to TMA's legitimacy. Lest we not forget the True nature of martial Arts was to effectively Kill their opponent in combat. Analogy for you- how long has the wheel been in exsistance. not much change in its design- proof of its effectiveness!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It will look a heck of a lot more like that than anything you are likely to see at a forms competition or a TMA demo.

That wasn't the point.

The point is that a mainstream tournament match, be it MMA, TMA, or anything else, differs greatly from a real fight or self defense scenario and anyone even passingly familiar with martial arts, TMA or MMA, knows this. Also, not all TMA's have forms.

In any case, I disagree with your original comment for other reasons.

I think some folks want to see MMA competition that looks like the forms and drills in whatever their TMA is. A real fight just ain't gonna look like that, so they are never likely to be satisfied.

Nobody ever wanted a ring fight to look like forms and drills, or a forms competition or demo. TMA has had fighting tournaments for as long as there've been TMA's. Even those not involved in martial arts know this.

Probably the biggest thing that some folks 'want' to see is more stand up fighting, and this is because they're used to it due to decades of televised boxing and either can't follow it and/or get bored once it goes to the ground.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Please excuse me for saying this, realize I am very new to all MA's and a great deal of it I find downright odd and baffling ( like this " Sensei doesn't teach you every thing he knows " crap. Why the hell not! Sensei needs to get over himself and pass the knowledge on. Unless he passes the knowledge on he has Failed as a Sensei)but;
stop whining that no one will ever see it, make 30 or 40 videos of some smoking cool fights of full contact Karate and air them. U-TUBE. You have global access. You have a data base here of how many? Post a video. Post a still series.
Where there is a will there is a way. Just Do it! Lori M

I beleive it was Chen Fa Ke who said he kept no secrets from his students. It was hard enough to learn Taiji if you had all the information without it is was impossible.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Please excuse me for saying this, realize I am very new to all MA's and a great deal of it I find downright odd and baffling ( like this " Sensei doesn't teach you every thing he knows " crap. Why the hell not! Sensei needs to get over himself and pass the knowledge on. Unless he passes the knowledge on he has Failed as a Sensei)

Sadly, this is not exclusive to MA. I worked in the music biz for several years and a lot of otherwise good guitar teachers withold their 'signature' techniques, frequently because the teachers still gig and don't want to get shown up by their own student with their own technique. In some cases, I've seen teachers purposefully not correct a student's bad habit precisely because it will keep the student a peg or two lower than themselves.

I abhore the mentality. Its generally due to insecurity. Also, the teacher wants you to see his or her excellent student and then say, 'you see how good he/she is? Well, I taught them everything they know, but not everything that I know' so that you'll say, "wow." Pathetic really. You're either a teacher or a competitor. I instruct kendo and so I won't enter any competitions against my students. I teach them everything I know and want to see them shine, not get shown up by some some instructor who needs an ego trip.

Daniel

 

[teekin]

Well then it's the Masters who are sinking the TMA boat, not John Q Public. I Want to see real full contact Karate! I Want to see traditional Kata, combat Judo, San Da, and what have you. I just do not have the option. I expose myself to what I can, but it is a tiny fraction of what is out there.
I'm lucky to have access to a brilliant technician to have my many questions answered and to show me any techniques that might be of use. If I didn't have this guide I'd be screwed. I might want to know but wouldn't have a hot clue of where to even Start looking.
Perhaps a bit of house cleaning is in order. Humbley, Jane Q Public
lori

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Actually, Grendel, John Q Public is part of the problem because the masters are dependent upon John Q Public for income. But I do agree that the blame lays largely with many of the masters (not all) for bowing to John Q Public much, much more than they needed to. They figured out that by bowing to John Q Public more than they really had to, they could truncate and water down their art and make tons more money than they ever could have made if they'd kept it truly traditional, while screwing John Q Public in the process.

Thus the McDojo.

Daniel

 

[Unkogami]

Nobody ever wanted a ring fight to look like forms and drills, or a forms competition or demo.

Lots of people do. You see them on forums like this all the time.

 

[teekin]

Actually, Grendel, John Q Public is part of the problem because the masters are dependent upon John Q Public for income. But I do agree that the blame lays largely with many of the masters (not all) for bowing to John Q Public much, much more than they needed to. They figured out that by bowing to John Q Public more than they really had to, they could truncate and water down their art and make tons more money than they ever could have made if they'd kept it truly traditional, while screwing John Q Public in the process.

Thus the McDojo.

Daniel

But I AM the public. And I don't want watered down crap! I get pissed off and argue if everything isn't explained to the nth degree. "ya, that looks fine" aint going to fly. I want every technique torn apart, dissected, analysed and then reconstructed, and I'll won't be happy ( and neither will sensei:angel till it is! I am Not unique in this regard. ( at least I don't think so)
Lori

 

[BrandonLucas]

I would love to see full contact tournements as well...like the old school ones that Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace used to compete in. You just don't see that anymore.

The problem isn't that John Q. Public doesn't want to see this....the problem is that John Q. Public's largely extended family doesn't want to see this. The MAJORITY of the public isn't interested in seeing stylized fighting...they are more interested in seeing people beating the crap out of eachother in general, whether they use technique or not.

But, I think Chuck Norris actually has the Combat Fighting League, which is more along the lines of the full-contact circuit of the days of yore. I've only seen a couple of fights from it, but it seems to be different from the run-of-the-mill UFC stuff. The problem is that UFC is mainstream, while the CFL is not quite underground, but certainly not as popular.

Now, don't get me wrong: I'll still watch UFC, just because I enjoy seeing fights. I used to keep up with boxing back in the day, before UFC really blew up.

But really, it's all a trend, just like everything else is out there. Backstreet Boys and N'Sync used to be the flavor of the hour, and that ended....thankfully. UFC is now hitting popular status...within the last 3 or 4 years. I can't really say when the UFC will lose its popularity, but it will, for one reason or another, just like everything else does.

I don't necessarily want to see it trail off; instead, I would love to see full-contact old-school tournements make a comeback.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Nobody ever wanted a ring fight to look like forms and drills, or a forms competition or demo.

Lots of people do. You see them on forums like this all the time.

I've yet to see that on this or any other forum I've been associated with.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But I AM the public. And I don't want watered down crap! I get pissed off and argue if everything isn't explained to the nth degree. "ya, that looks fine" aint going to fly. I want every technique torn apart, dissected, analysed and then reconstructed, and I'll won't be happy ( and neither will sensei:angel till it is! I am Not unique in this regard. ( at least I don't think so)
Lori

Actually, you are unique.

Those of us who want non watered down or truncated curriculum are in the minority. Those of us who were actually serious about martial arts have always been in the minority.

A lot of people want a black belt. A lot of people just want to 'take karate' and a lot of people want exercise and don't want to join a gym. Then a lot of people want inexpensive after school services and summer camp for their kids with a black belt for their kid at the tail end of it.

The problem with the general public is that they treat the school owner like they do the waiter at TGI Friday's. When they don't feel they've gotten what they wanted, they complain and if necesary, threaten a lawsuit. Unfortunately, the general public doesn't educate themselves about martial arts and really don't know what they want. They have a vague idea in the back of their minds, and oddly enough, it resembles McDojo. They also feel that throwing money at a school means that they deserve a belt.

The masters who have caved to this, and many have, contrived the McDojo. It is exactly what the public wanted. The regular guy wants to be treated as if he or his kid were Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Dolph Lundgren, or Jackie Chan, but they don't have any concept of the dedication involved in being what those men were/are. Nor do they care. They just want the belt they didn't earn for skills they never developed to impress people they don't like.

The sad truth.

Daniel

 

[tshadowchaser]

I Want to see real full contact Karate!

So you want to see people ctrippled and killed? That is what happens with real Karate being done full contact

I would love to see full contact tournements as well...like the old school ones that Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace used to compete in. You just don't see that anymore.

these still had rules thusly they where watered down versions of what could have been done. YES I also enjoy those old tournaments but only the ones when they wore no protective gear. Even then there where rules .

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Quote:
I Want to see real full contact Karate!
So you want to see people ctrippled and killed? That is what happens with real Karate being done full contact

Quote:
I would love to see full contact tournements as well...like the old school ones that Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace used to compete in. You just don't see that anymore.
these still had rules thusly they where watered down versions of what could have been done. YES I also enjoy those old tournaments but only the ones when they wore no protective gear. Even then there where rules .

I completely agree with Shadowchaser on that one. 'Full contact Karate'? Pretty much anyone who uses that phrase has no concept of what they are saying. Full contact is two guys mashing each other until one of them dies. It's not a sport and it's not done in a ring of any sort. As for all those 'old style' tournaments. Ask those guys who competed in them if they would do it all again if they had the choice of wearing protective gear. Anyone with any modicum of common sense will rather take the protective gear. I'm as traditonally inclined as it gets. I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.

I want every technique torn apart, dissected, analysed and then reconstructed, and I'll won't be happy ( and neither will sensei:angel till it is!

Shimeijurasan. 'A level of exactitude and perfection that is the goal of (though beyond the reach of) all martial artists.' To quote Dr. Westwood.

 

[Tez3]

I would love to see full contact tournements as well...like the old school ones that Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace used to compete in. You just don't see that anymore.

The problem isn't that John Q. Public doesn't want to see this....the problem is that John Q. Public's largely extended family doesn't want to see this. The MAJORITY of the public isn't interested in seeing stylized fighting...they are more interested in seeing people beating the crap out of eachother in general, whether they use technique or not.

But, I think Chuck Norris actually has the Combat Fighting League, which is more along the lines of the full-contact circuit of the days of yore. I've only seen a couple of fights from it, but it seems to be different from the run-of-the-mill UFC stuff. The problem is that UFC is mainstream, while the CFL is not quite underground, but certainly not as popular.

Now, don't get me wrong: I'll still watch UFC, just because I enjoy seeing fights. I used to keep up with boxing back in the day, before UFC really blew up.

But really, it's all a trend, just like everything else is out there. Backstreet Boys and N'Sync used to be the flavor of the hour, and that ended....thankfully. UFC is now hitting popular status...within the last 3 or 4 years. I can't really say when the UFC will lose its popularity, but it will, for one reason or another, just like everything else does.

I don't necessarily want to see it trail off; instead, I would love to see full-contact old-school tournements make a comeback.

When you say UFC you do realise that it's a company, a business? the UFC is not a sport or a style it's a promotion owned by people who are looking to make money off of it. There's a lot of MMA comps going on out there, a lot of MMA fighters. UFC may come and go but MMA is likely to go on for a vey long time.
I would stress time and time again go and look at MMA beyond the UFC, see whats really going on and how good the sport really is. Don't judge MMA by the UFC, it's popular of course but not the be all and end all of MMA.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

When you say UFC you do realise that it's a company, a business? the UFC is not a sport or a style it's a promotion owned by people who are looking to make money off of it. There's a lot of MMA comps going on out there, a lot of MMA fighters. UFC may come and go but MMA is likely to go on for a vey long time.
I would stress time and time again go and look at MMA beyond the UFC, see whats really going on and how good the sport really is. Don't judge MMA by the UFC, it's popular of course but not the be all and end all of MMA.

I think the very fact that the Difference between what the UFC is and what MMA are is a sign that there is a major problem in what is being force fed to people.
It's like when you try to explain to someone that you do Karate. They seem to instantly conjure images of Shotokan karate. Even people who are already martial artists do it. There are just labels slapped all over everything and Dojos are being given classfication by style. Fact is even if you train in a dojo of the same 'style' as another, what's actually being taught is gonna be different in each one.
So I whole heartedly agree that you need to look deeper than the labels being slapped on to stuff.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I completely agree with Shadowchaser on that one. 'Full contact Karate'? Pretty much anyone who uses that phrase has no concept of what they are saying. Full contact is two guys mashing each other until one of them dies. It's not a sport and it's not done in a ring of any sort. As for all those 'old style' tournaments. Ask those guys who competed in them if they would do it all again if they had the choice of wearing protective gear. Anyone with any modicum of common sense will rather take the protective gear. I'm as traditonally inclined as it gets. I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.

Shimeijurasan. 'A level of exactitude and perfection that is the goal of (though beyond the reach of) all martial artists.' To quote Dr. Westwood.

The old tournements had rules that had to be followed, and I guess this could be perceived as being watered down.

But those old tournements were just as brutal as the UFC is now...people still get hurt, even within those rulesets. The goal shouldn't be to maim and kill, it should be to score on your opponent and possibly knock them out. Big difference from trying to maim or kill your opponent.

Full contact with padding is just as entertaining as without padding, to me. I would still rather compete and watch tournements without padding, all the same...but under a safe ruleset.

 

[Tez3]

The old tournements had rules that had to be followed, and I guess this could be perceived as being watered down.

But those old tournements were just as brutal as the UFC is now...people still get hurt, even within those rulesets. The goal shouldn't be to maim and kill, it should be to score on your opponent and possibly knock them out. Big difference from trying to maim or kill your opponent.

Full contact with padding is just as entertaining as without padding, to me. I would still rather compete and watch tournements without padding, all the same...but under a safe ruleset.

I wasted my time typing really didn't I?

The UFC is not MMA. There are different rules sets in MMA - amateur, semi pro and pro rules - and much of it even the UFC is far from 'brutal' it's a game, a competition, a tournament, a sport etc etc.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When you say UFC you do realise that it's a company, a business? the UFC is not a sport or a style it's a promotion owned by people who are looking to make money off of it. There's a lot of MMA comps going on out there, a lot of MMA fighters. UFC may come and go but MMA is likely to go on for a vey long time.
I would stress time and time again go and look at MMA beyond the UFC, see whats really going on and how good the sport really is. Don't judge MMA by the UFC, it's popular of course but not the be all and end all of MMA.

I have some friends at work that are always asking me about my martial arts and the discussion inevitably drifts to boxing and the UFC. Generally, they want my take on this that or the other fighter. It took a year and a half of my constantly callling it 'mma' before they collectively stopped calling MMA, "UFC style fighting." Then I moved to a different building, but I stop over to chat with them and they're back to calling it UFC style fighting. At this point, a couple of them even watch MMA other than the UFC, but they always call it UFC.

I think that this is probably part out of habit; the UFC is most people's first exposure to MMA, and part out of a desire to have people know what they're talking about on some level, so they categorize it as 'UFC' so that their aunt/uncle/cousin/brother/sister/nephew/coworker/buddies can have common ground in the conversation. Many people I know still call all unarmed martial arts either karate or kung fu, except MMA, which they all call UFC.

It seems that once a brand becomes synonymous with a type, then the type is always referred to by the branded name, regardless of who it is really associated with. Anyone remember when all headphone AM/FM/Cassette players were called 'Walkman?'

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'm not using UFC as the company itself, just as a broad term. I figured that the way I was describing things in my post, that it would be made clear that's how I was referring to MMA events. I appologize if that wasn't clear, and I will make sure I'm more specific.

First, UFC is the most popular COMPANY for providing MMA styled events to the public. Though they have different rulesets than other MMA styled events, the concept is still the same. The general public sees this as what MMA is, and equates everything that comes under a full-contact competition as being UFC, since this is their perception of what MMA is.

When I say that UFC is what's popular right now, I mean both the company AND MMA as a sport as well. If you think about it, UFC is the main media that is bringing MMA to the general public. If UFC loses steam, and another company is not able to pick up where UFC left off, then MMA is going to be far less popular to the general public.

By general public, I'm referring to the average Joe on the street that knows nothing about martial arts at all, but enjoys watching fights.

If the public actually got to watch the old-style tournements, such as the ones Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, and Benny Urquidez used to compete in, I think they, the general public, the average guy off the street would actually get behind that just as much UFC, the company, as well as any other MMA organization that's out there and popular, as well as MMA styled tournements, no matter what the ruleset.

Please let me know if this is still not clear, and I'll try to be more specific, and I appologize for the non-clarity in my previous post.