martial frauds and your thoughts

longshot

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I'm sure you're all familar with the terms bad budo and mcdojo. We have all seen people claiming to teach the secret arts of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu (Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan, etc...) and all the various martial arts they have learned from some secret great grandmasters (unfortantly you can never check their credentials since their grandmaster is now dead).
Now the question is this: If an invidual were to train under one of these frauds and had no knowledge that they were being taken, are these unenlightened people considered bad martial artist or can they possibly be good martial artist in an unfortunate situation?
I guess it boils down to whether or not if you believe "ignorance is bliss" or "ignorance is no excuse for sin"
Anyways i just wanted to get other peoples thoughts on this?
 
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yilisifu

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If their technique is bad and they possess no real skill, then their martial art is bad.

If their philosophy is false and this is simply a scam with which they can fill their wallets, they're bad people.

Not martial artists at all.
 
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longshot

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I agree with you, but what about their students? What if their students are learning practical techniques and getting in better shape but they don't know their teacher is a fraud? Would the students be considered good martial artist?
 
M

MartialArtist

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I know how to fly

I don't spar with my students because I can seriously hurt them, or they might provoke me to shoot a fireball :rolleyes:
 
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chufeng

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Yes and No,

Technique is one thing, philosophy quite another...

A real martial system will have both technique and philosophy...
So, they may become good technicians, but end up living a falsehood...if they recognize the falsehood and move to change that, then they are back on track...but if they buy into the lie...they are no better than their teacher.

Who has a greater culpability? the original liar, of course...but each and everyone of us research, not only our own system's history, but the history of other arts, too...so, eventually, the guy caught up in the lie will realize it. Then, he/she has to decide whether he/she will perpetuate it or come clean and start teaching and learning something legitimate.

:asian:
chufeng
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by longshot
I agree with you, but what about their students? What if their students are learning practical techniques and getting in better shape but they don't know their teacher is a fraud? Would the students be considered good martial artist?



If people are not what they claim then they are fruads. Plain and simple.
If I claim to be teaching tuite and I am in actuality knowingly teaching small circle jujutsu then I am deceiving my students.
They may or may not be learning useful technique but my claims would be false.
 
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longshot

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chufeng- I agree with much of what you're saying and I'm not trying to start an argument; but what about mondern martial arts that don't really have a/any philosphy such as mixed martial arts (lion's den for example)? They would be considered legitimate by most people (including me) but they don't really have a/any philosphy? Would you consider them real martial arts and artist?
 
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muayThaiPerson

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No matter what art, fraud is fraud. Martialtalk.com is a good place to verify wether or not your in a McDojo. People mainly go for defense purposes, if the techniques are false then its purely a waste of time and money, no matter if the philosphy is right
 
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longshot

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for muaythaiperson-what if the techniques are good (even great) but they are taught under false pretense?
 

Zepp

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I would think that if a teacher is intentionally deceiving his students, it's very unlikely that they will somehow develop good technique. Regardless of whether the teacher actually has skill or good technique, if he's commiting fraud, then he wouldn't care enough to properly critique his students' techniques, so they wouldn't have a way of knowing if they were doing something right, or even training in a useful way.

It's very unlikely that a person would discover how to be a good martial artist without having at least some decent instruction.

False pretenses? I guess that depends on the pretense. If a person is taught to defend themselves against a knife attack by throwing a tornado kick, they've got a problem.
 
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muayThaiPerson

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I stick to my comment. But if there is more workout than technique ie. bagwork..I mean 3:1 more, then its fine. Because workout makes you strong and fast. But then theres the issue of what youre doing on the bag. If you cant punch or kick, then thee bag is pretty much useless
 
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chufeng

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longshot - Without a philosophy, a Do is not a Do...it may be considered a jitsu, however.

If all your looking for is an effective fighting method, then "roots" are irrelevant...the proof is what happens in the ring or on the mat...

If ANY teacher misrepresents his/her art, it is wrong...
If a student of said teacher eventually teaches the same stuff without KNOWING that it is bastardized, I would not fault the student, but the thing being taught is still false.

Our organization has had to shut down false schools that claimed to represent our art...We don't ask them to quit teaching...we ask them NOT to use the name of our art or Association to promote what they teach...once the "legitimacy" of what they teach is publicly known, their enrollment drops drastically...people DO NOT want to learn crap...

:asian:
chufeng
 

tshadowchaser

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I most agree that decieving the world and pretending to be what you are not is wrong. It tends to lessen the knowledge that students recieve and creats false knowledge.
Now on another note was the original post refering to the Ronald Duncan that has been teaching sence the 60's. I cant say if his claim(if he makes one) to teaching Koga systems is true but I do know that the man has been around a long time and produced some excellent students. He was one one the formost teachers in the New York area even back in 1970. What he teaches has stood the test of time and he is respected by many who have been around a long time.
tshadowchaser:asian:
 
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longshot

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Thats my point to tshadowchaser. Ronald Duncan may be a great martial artist and has great students but his claims are defiantly suspect.
 
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sweeper

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well hope this doesn't double post..

I typed up more but it got lost when I hit submit.

To cut to the point, If someone is told all their life that red is the same as green and green the same as red it doesn't mean there is a problem with their vision, but if someone lacks the capability to distinguish between blue and green, they are color blind.
 

Matt Stone

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If a teacher is a fraud, and his students are 4th degree super grand black belts, then are they martial artists?

No. In their minds, perhaps, but not in everyone else's reality...

If the teacher possesses real skill, but just milks his students for their cash in exchange for learning those skills, then they are martial artists, just poor ones (monetarily)...

The good things about forums like this is in time we can hope to educate some folks that are being led by the nose all the way to the bank (or the poor house).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 
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Mike Clarke

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I think it's possible to get involved with a suspect teacher in the begining out of ignorance. However, your progress is your own responsibility and so as a students begins to gain experience they should also start waking up to the fact that their teacher may not be all they are claiming to be?

If that's the case they can either go along with the scam, or walk away and seek honest instruction elsewhere. I would have thought anyone with even an ounce of self respect would choose the later.

Mike.
 

tshadowchaser

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I dont like frauds but I most tell you about "jim" Now "jim" had never really studied long enough to get a black belt . In fact I don't think he had studied more than 6 months befor he opened his own school.
Now this was a long time ago and I didnt really like the ligit instructor in town, so I ignored the fack that "jim" really didnt have ligit rank.
To make this story short "jim" would go to schools a few hours from his place for a night or so (just looking for a place to study) then go back and teach what he saw. Eventualy he had a set of forms and requirementss for ranks up to Black Belt. Was he any good. He and his students put the ligit instructor to shame at local tournaments. His people had a better knowledge of the verrrious martial arts and a respect for all Martial arts .
The ligit instructor was so envious and dispised "jim" so much that he would spread romors snad tell the most outlandish lyes about him.
WAs "jim" ligit ? Not when he started.
Is he ligit today 15 years later ? ???
He never claimed a heritage, or told people he was anything he wasn"t except for the Black Belt. I dont even remember him ever telling anyone he had any rank.
 

Baoquan

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If you get your @ss kicked by the student of a less than salubrious lineage, is your @ss still kicked??

Or was it fruadulantly kicked?

Cheers

Baoquan. :D
 

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