Taking Away From The Arts

[MJS]

Actually I was thinking more of the local level, the way many municipalities license and do background checks on various professions that have frequent contact with juveniles. I realize that even background checks and licenses are a form of 'regulation', but wondered what you thought about it.

Background checks to make sure that what they're teaching is legit? Hey, like I said, I'm all for legit schools, but who would do that? It would have to be some sort of a panel of legit Kenpo people, for the Kenpo schools, legit TKD people for the TKD schools, etc. Am I following you correctly here?

But as you said earlier, even the mcdojos have their own mcdojo orgs. so who would oversee the checks?

 

[MJS]

A 10 year old 1st Degree Black Belt is not out of the question; that's what I think the bare-bones minimum age should be.

I've been teaching for quite some time, and personally, while I do realize that kids usually make up a huge part of the student base, I'm not a fan of seeing a 4yo training. Why? Because its rare that you'll see a 4yo that'll actually comprehend whats being taught. Do those 4yr olds exist? Sure, I've seen them with my own eyes, but as I said, they're few and far between.

So, assuming it takes 6yrs to reach BB, yeah, I see your logic with this. But IMO, a 10yo, really doesnt have the maturity for BB level. If I owned my own school, nobody under 16 would get a BB. IMO, theres more than just time to take into consideration.

However, even someone who has no knowledge of martial arts at all can pretty much figure out that a 30 year old claiming multiple high ranks in several disciplines is probably padding his resume more than a little. And yeah, it does detract from martial arts overall. We're supposed to have learned about honor and integrity along the way. Someone who trains for a year then awards themself a forty-lebbenth degree in GrabAssDo is most assuredly showing neither.

Agreed. They're either padding it, or half of the ranks they're claiming are honorary, which IMO, dont count. If you havent put in the blood, sweat and tears on the mat, busting your *** in training, dont claim the rank.

 

[James Kovacich]

Anyone up for government regulation of martial arts?

Who would the Govt look to to regulate all arts and instructors. It could lead to Mc Dojos's being recognized as leaders of the industry and serious non-mainstream instructors and practitioners as not.

It would definately be a mess. Fortunately it will never happen. The martial arts is so big and the govt is not only not qualified to "sort it out," it couldn't even come close to doing it without messing it up.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I really dont have a problem with mcdojos. I would never train at one, but they do cater for a certain type of clientel and if those clientel are happy getting their quick and easy blackbelt and it gets them up off the couch and doing some exercise then I really dont see how it affects me. Most people go into the martial arts with a pretty good idea of what they want to achieve along the way. If someone starts training at a club and it really doesnt cater to their needs then they will go elsewhere and find what they are looking for. Also, if mcdojos give my art a bad name then I cant see how that affects me, I really dont care what other people think about the martial art I do or if they choose a different art. More emphasis should be placed on your own individual development and taking pride in what you do, what other people think really means nothing to me at all.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I do think to an extent that McDojos do damage the credibility of the arts in general if we want to take a deserved place in the minds of our communities. To me as an instructor, the quality of my "product" is the quality of my advanced students, especially my black belts. The standards that they must grow into to reach these levels IMO should be something worth striving for otherwise rank (esp. BB) has no meaning.

There are some assumptions the OP seems to have that I don't neccesarily agree with, however. First, to many "traditionalists" out there, I say the solution is not to "water down" your art, but rather to upgrade it as well as learn better teaching methods. Is your art a vehicle for a student's personal growth and development? Or is it something that only a "worthy few" should be allowed to participate in as long as they can weather the demands of training the way it has been for generations? If it's the latter, then I personally would have little interest in learning it despite the fact that I am borderline fanatical in both my training intensity and frequency. If it's the former, then IMO the teaching methods need to be upgraded to allow and encourage as many people to enjoy it's benefits as possible.

I have also been engaged in cross training for well over three decades now. I realize that your point was mostly aimed towards the charlatans and frauds who either make up their rank or have it given as an honorary degree (usually based on someone else recognizing each other), however some have worked for it. I have been doing some form of grappling (JJJ, Judo or BJJ) since 1971. My skills have been sufficient to earn me the Silver Medal at the NAGA World Grappling Championships this year in the Expert division for my weight class (and if my old bod will hold up through the training for next year, I'll see if I can take the title belt). I've also been training in stand up striking arts since the mid-70's including TKD (6th dan and a gold medal in international competition many years ago), boxing (fought as an amateur), Muay Thai (since 1980 and fought as a pro under full contact/national rules) and American Kenpo (only first dan, no special distinction). I've also been doing some form of the FMA's pretty much non-stop since 1979 (Inayan, Serrada and Arnis systems). Along the way, I've picked up some rank along the way. I could have more and higher grades if I were interested in it.

As far as kids go, I just promoted a ten year old to Jr. Black Belt rank on Saturday. In our association, they are not full black belts until the age of 18, but would best be compared to a warrant officer as opposed to a commissioned officer. This young man has been training hard and consistantly for 6 years. In prep for this test, he trained specifically like an olympic athlete for 16 weeks. He was on an athlete's nutrition plan, did cardio, resistance training, ect. to prepare. He can grapple, kickbox and fight under MMA rules against someone his size as well or better than I suspect most black belts around here would do against someone of their own size and gender. While I do think that watering down standards to keep the parents paying at the "karate-themed daycare" is deplorable, they used to say that you were a man when you could d a man's work. I'd say that this young man fits that bill far better than the vast majority of 16 year olds (LOL) and many quite a bit older.

I know that there is a problem with watering down of standards and I do have other schools in my county that are pretty much belt factories. It does diminish what my students have earned in the eyes or expectations of others, but I seriously doubt that it will for them in their own minds and hearts. They KNOW what they have earned and more importantly, how much they had to grow as people in order to achieve it.

P.S. -There is also a bit of a problem in the arts with making generalizations, too.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I do think to an extent that McDojos do damage the credibility of the arts in general if we want to take a deserved place in the minds of our communities. To me as an instructor, the quality of my "product" is the quality of my advanced students, especially my black belts. The standards that they must grow into to reach these levels IMO should be something worth striving for otherwise rank (esp. BB) has no meaning.

There are some assumptions the OP seems to have that I don't neccesarily agree with, however. First, to many "traditionalists" out there, I say the solution is not to "water down" your art, but rather to upgrade it as well as learn better teaching methods. Is your art a vehicle for a student's personal growth and development? Or is it something that only a "worthy few" should be allowed to participate in as long as they can weather the demands of training the way it has been for generations? If it's the latter, then I personally would have little interest in learning it despite the fact that I am borderline fanatical in both my training intensity and frequency. If it's the former, then IMO the teaching methods need to be upgraded to allow and encourage as many people to enjoy it's benefits as possible.

I have also been engaged in cross training for well over three decades now. I realize that your point was mostly aimed towards the charlatans and frauds who either make up their rank or have it given as an honorary degree (usually based on someone else recognizing each other), however some have worked for it. I have been doing some form of grappling (JJJ, Judo or BJJ) since 1971. My skills have been sufficient to earn me the Silver Medal at the NAGA World Grappling Championships this year in the Expert division for my weight class (and if my old bod will hold up through the training for next year, I'll see if I can take the title belt). I've also been training in stand up striking arts since the mid-70's including TKD (6th dan and a gold medal in international competition many years ago), boxing (fought as an amateur), Muay Thai (since 1980 and fought as a pro under full contact/national rules) and American Kenpo (only first dan, no special distinction). I've also been doing some form of the FMA's pretty much non-stop since 1979 (Inayan, Serrada and Arnis systems). Along the way, I've picked up some rank along the way. I could have more and higher grades if I were interested in it.

As far as kids go, I just promoted a ten year old to Jr. Black Belt rank on Saturday. In our association, they are not full black belts until the age of 18, but would best be compared to a warrant officer as opposed to a commissioned officer. This young man has been training hard and consistantly for 6 years. In prep for this test, he trained specifically like an olympic athlete for 16 weeks. He was on an athlete's nutrition plan, did cardio, resistance training, ect. to prepare. He can grapple, kickbox and fight under MMA rules against someone his size as well or better than I suspect most black belts around here would do against someone of their own size and gender. While I do think that watering down standards to keep the parents paying at the "karate-themed daycare" is deplorable, they used to say that you were a man when you could d a man's work. I'd say that this young man fits that bill far better than the vast majority of 16 year olds (LOL) and many quite a bit older.

I know that there is a problem with watering down of standards and I do have other schools in my county that are pretty much belt factories. It does diminish what my students have earned in the eyes or expectations of others, but I seriously doubt that it will for them in their own minds and hearts. They KNOW what they have earned and more importantly, how much they had to grow as people in order to achieve it.

P.S. -There is also a bit of a problem in the arts with making generalizations, too.

Your last line could not be more true. So many of the beliefs people have about arts stem from generalisations and the internet is full of them.

 

[xJOHNx]

No, I do it for myself.
I don't have to proof nothing to nobody (except when sensei asks ofcourse).
So I don't really care that much what other people think of my art or the arts in general.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I agree with most of the sentiments here, but in some cases I think a 10 year old black belt CAN be legit. The kid in this clip is 8 years at the time of filming. According to David, (the one who put up this vid) it is not uncommon for kids like this in Japan to train 6 days in the week, in the morning and in the evening.

[yt]ASAG2O_H3ic[/yt]

 

[xJOHNx]

the question remains...
Why is he wearing crocs?


In all seriousness: that kid has already reached a good level, imagen if he keeps it up throughout the next ten years

 

[MJS]

I do think to an extent that McDojos do damage the credibility of the arts in general if we want to take a deserved place in the minds of our communities. To me as an instructor, the quality of my "product" is the quality of my advanced students, especially my black belts. The standards that they must grow into to reach these levels IMO should be something worth striving for otherwise rank (esp. BB) has no meaning.

I agree with this.

There are some assumptions the OP seems to have that I don't neccesarily agree with, however.

And you, just like everyone else, is entitled to your opinion. Imagine what this place or the world would be like, if everyone agreed? LOL! Of course, I'm guessing that you did read past my OP, as I stated that I fall into the group that really doesnt care what people think about Kenpo or Arnis, the 2 arts that I primarily do. I'm happy with my training, so thats all that matters, IMHO.

First, to many "traditionalists" out there, I say the solution is not to "water down" your art, but rather to upgrade it as well as learn better teaching methods. Is your art a vehicle for a student's personal growth and development? Or is it something that only a "worthy few" should be allowed to participate in as long as they can weather the demands of training the way it has been for generations? If it's the latter, then I personally would have little interest in learning it despite the fact that I am borderline fanatical in both my training intensity and frequency. If it's the former, then IMO the teaching methods need to be upgraded to allow and encourage as many people to enjoy it's benefits as possible.

I'll address all of your points here.

1) I, as well as my teachers, are always striving to upgrade things. Of course, I've talked, many times on here, about my upgrades, only to be told that the art doesnt need upgrading, but instead that its ME that doesnt understand the art. Who knows...maybe thats the case, but I do find it interesting that many others share similar views as I.

2) Some people may not be interested in my upgrades, and thats perfectly fine. The majority of 'changes' if you will, that I make, are for my benefit. When I teach, I teach the material in its original form. Of course, I also take it a step further and show people how I do things. I tell them that what I'm doing is simply an option. If they want to adopt that option, great. If not, thats fine too. For example...I have a Parker and Tracy Kenpo background. While much of the material is the same, although there are differences. So sometimes, during a class, I'll take a Parker tech., and show the class the variations. I'll tell them that what I'm showing is nothing 'required' but simply another option. If they find value in it, great...if not, thats ok. My goal is to help my students grow, not stay stagnant.

I have also been engaged in cross training for well over three decades now. I realize that your point was mostly aimed towards the charlatans and frauds who either make up their rank or have it given as an honorary degree (usually based on someone else recognizing each other), however some have worked for it. I have been doing some form of grappling (JJJ, Judo or BJJ) since 1971. My skills have been sufficient to earn me the Silver Medal at the NAGA World Grappling Championships this year in the Expert division for my weight class (and if my old bod will hold up through the training for next year, I'll see if I can take the title belt). I've also been training in stand up striking arts since the mid-70's including TKD (6th dan and a gold medal in international competition many years ago), boxing (fought as an amateur), Muay Thai (since 1980 and fought as a pro under full contact/national rules) and American Kenpo (only first dan, no special distinction). I've also been doing some form of the FMA's pretty much non-stop since 1979 (Inayan, Serrada and Arnis systems). Along the way, I've picked up some rank along the way. I could have more and higher grades if I were interested in it.

Congrats on your accomplishments. Likewise, I too crosstrain. Kenpo is my base art, however I do Arnis, and when time allows, BJJ. I've found that cross training is a good thing, although some dont like it, for reasons that've been talked about many times here. Crosstraining has opened many new doors for me, and has allowed me the chance to train with many wonderful people.

As far as kids go, I just promoted a ten year old to Jr. Black Belt rank on Saturday. In our association, they are not full black belts until the age of 18, but would best be compared to a warrant officer as opposed to a commissioned officer. This young man has been training hard and consistantly for 6 years. In prep for this test, he trained specifically like an olympic athlete for 16 weeks. He was on an athlete's nutrition plan, did cardio, resistance training, ect. to prepare. He can grapple, kickbox and fight under MMA rules against someone his size as well or better than I suspect most black belts around here would do against someone of their own size and gender. While I do think that watering down standards to keep the parents paying at the "karate-themed daycare" is deplorable, they used to say that you were a man when you could d a man's work. I'd say that this young man fits that bill far better than the vast majority of 16 year olds (LOL) and many quite a bit older.

Yes, all of the Kenpo schools I've been a member of, have used the Jr. Black Belt. IMO, this is a good thing, due to the fact that the kids material is often condensed anyways, so by the time they get their Jr. BB, they then go back and learn the rest of the material. By that time, they're often old enough to test for an adult BB. Some will like the use of the Jr. BB, some won't. Personally, I'm a bigger fan of that, vs. giving a 10yo a full BB. The Jr BB is good, because it gives the child the feeling of reaching a goal, but at the same time, they're still growing and maturing in the arts.

I know that there is a problem with watering down of standards and I do have other schools in my county that are pretty much belt factories. It does diminish what my students have earned in the eyes or expectations of others, but I seriously doubt that it will for them in their own minds and hearts. They KNOW what they have earned and more importantly, how much they had to grow as people in order to achieve it.

P.S. -There is also a bit of a problem in the arts with making generalizations, too.

As I said, there is a good chance, the mcdojos of the Kenpo world will have an effect on me. But, until people see every Kenpo school, they can't say, with absolute faith, that every Kenpo school sucks. Fortunately, the school that I belong to, is not a belt factory. All of the students work for their rank.

 

[MJS]

I agree with most of the sentiments here, but in some cases I think a 10 year old black belt CAN be legit. The kid in this clip is 8 years at the time of filming. According to David, (the one who put up this vid) it is not uncommon for kids like this in Japan to train 6 days in the week, in the morning and in the evening.

[yt]ASAG2O_H3ic[/yt]

As I said earlier, there will always be the 'wonder children' and this kid is probably one of them. Difference being, he probably comes from a very traditional school, where its drilled in, from day 1, that the arts are to be taken seriously. Its not like the TMNT show. LOL!

 

[dancingalone]

I agree with most of the sentiments here, but in some cases I think a 10 year old black belt CAN be legit. The kid in this clip is 8 years at the time of filming. According to David, (the one who put up this vid) it is not uncommon for kids like this in Japan to train 6 days in the week, in the morning and in the evening.

[yt]ASAG2O_H3ic[/yt]

Sure they can be. But we all know the typical dojo doesn't train children like this.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

the question remains...
Why is he wearing crocs?


In all seriousness: that kid has already reached a good level, imagen if he keeps it up throughout the next ten years

The problem is if not handled very, very carefully by his instructor and parents there is a good chance in another few years when he becomes a teen that he will stop altogether in favor of other activities. The skills he has will dissappear rather quickly and he will be someone who used to train and oh yes has a blackbelt. (there are literally thousands upon thousands of them) There is a very, very good chance he will then miss the life long benefits of practicing the Martial Sciences!

 

[Shin71]

I say it only affects you if you let it. Maybe there is a 10 year old that deserves a black belt and maybe kungfu r us is just selling belts, who cares.

I think all it does is help weed out the chaff. They may take away some business but they seem to intercept a lot of the "I want it now and I wont work for it" crowd.

 

[XBOXLIVE]

10yo black belts, mcdojos, people running around with a resume that states they train in 10 different arts, with multiple 7th and 8th degree black belts.

Those are just a few of the 'pet peeves' that some people have with the martial arts today. My question is simple: In your opinion, do you feel that these things take anything away from the martial arts? Do you feel that these things make others, who may/may not train in those arts, view them in a bad way?

theres a taekwon do school near by my house and the program they got for kids is great ive checked it out , but the adult classes im like whoa ! i seen some wabbly students over there wearing green belts ?

id still take my child there but as soon as my child gets older im showing him some kenpo.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

10yo black belts, mcdojos, people running around with a resume that states they train in 10 different arts, with multiple 7th and 8th degree black belts.

Those are just a few of the 'pet peeves' that some people have with the martial arts today. My question is simple: In your opinion, do you feel that these things take anything away from the martial arts? Do you feel that these things make others, who may/may not train in those arts, view them in a bad way?

Ten year old black belts
Ten year old black belts are a corner that the martial arts world began painting itself into four decades ago. First, the black belt in the west was turned into a holy grail that made its wearer either Superman or Wonder Woman. Then in the eighties, martial arts schools piggybacked onto the fitness trend. Then they marketed to families. All of this kept the doors opened and made it possible to do a great many things, including earning a living. This produced the McDojo (see below).

Fast forward to 1990 and now you have situation where you cannot make the black belt unattainable and you cannot keep students around for the years that it takes to get a black belt. In order to keep the kids interested, the logic was that belts were needed. First more belts. Then a black belt because parents wanted to be able to check of 'BB' on their kids resume. Since parents tended to pull their kids after two to three years anyway, the black belt became either incentive for the kid to stick around (gotta get that second stripe) or the last large payment of cash from mom and dad.

Do they "take away" from the arts? No, but it does mean that each school needs to articulate what a black belt represents within their four walls. Black belts that are tough as nails and can actually fight stand out. When people see them in action, they know that they are the real deal. Regardless of age.

In a way, the kiddie belt phenomenon in combination with the rise in popularity of beltless MMA has had the unintended benefit of causing the rest of us to think realistically about what a black belt really represents.

McDojos
Take away from the art itself? No.

Cause the art to be truncated or watered down in a majority of schools? Yes.

Though I'd argue that the number of schools teaching in a truly traditional way has remained the same. The only difference was that there were no McDojos.

In a sense, the McDojos allow way more people to take up the arts because the facilities are more readily available. They can also serve as potential feeders to the more 'fight' oriented schools, as kids or adults who want to move from the greasy kid stuff to the real stuff so that they can be more effective seek out the more 'traditional' or more 'mma gym' oriented schools.

The traditional (meaning hard as nails black belts that take more than two years to get and tons of hard sparring) and MMA gyms don't market to the same students that the McDojos do anyway.

So in the end, the art is taught traditionally/solidly in the same number of schools-to-people ratio as before McDojos existed with the McDojos picking up all of the people who would have never lasted in the traditional school/MMA gym in the first place.

People running around with a resume that states they train in 10 different arts, with multiple 7th and 8th degree black belts
There are always con men, flim flam men, and students who just like to collect belts and are awareded high rank for cash in multiple orgs. And there always will be. I think that these individuals have less of an impact on the arts than we who are concerned often think that they do.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

Ten year old black belts
Ten year old black belts are a corner that the martial arts world began painting itself into four decades ago. First, the black belt in the west was turned into a holy grail that made its wearer either Superman or Wonder Woman. Then in the eighties, martial arts schools piggybacked onto the fitness trend. Then they marketed to families. All of this kept the doors opened and made it possible to do a great many things, including earning a living. This produced the McDojo (see below).

Fast forward to 1990 and now you have situation where you cannot make the black belt unattainable and you cannot keep students around for the years that it takes to get a black belt. In order to keep the kids interested, the logic was that belts were needed. First more belts. Then a black belt because parents wanted to be able to check of 'BB' on their kids resume. Since parents tended to pull their kids after two to three years anyway, the black belt became either incentive for the kid to stick around (gotta get that second stripe) or the last large payment of cash from mom and dad.

Do they "take away" from the arts? No, but it does mean that each school needs to articulate what a black belt represents within their four walls. Black belts that are tough as nails and can actually fight stand out. When people see them in action, they know that they are the real deal. Regardless of age.

In a way, the kiddie belt phenomenon in combination with the rise in popularity of beltless MMA has had the unintended benefit of causing the rest of us to think realistically about what a black belt really represents.

IMO, I'd say what takes away from a BB, is the fact that they're handed out like candy. The value and meaning is tossed away, to be replaced by something that has no meaning.

McDojos

Take away from the art itself? No.

Cause the art to be truncated or watered down in a majority of schools? Yes.

Though I'd argue that the number of schools teaching in a truly traditional way has remained the same. The only difference was that there were no McDojos.

In a sense, the McDojos allow way more people to take up the arts because the facilities are more readily available. They can also serve as potential feeders to the more 'fight' oriented schools, as kids or adults who want to move from the greasy kid stuff to the real stuff so that they can be more effective seek out the more 'traditional' or more 'mma gym' oriented schools.

The traditional (meaning hard as nails black belts that take more than two years to get and tons of hard sparring) and MMA gyms don't market to the same students that the McDojos do anyway.

So in the end, the art is taught traditionally/solidly in the same number of schools-to-people ratio as before McDojos existed with the McDojos picking up all of the people who would have never lasted in the traditional school/MMA gym in the first place.

Points taken. IMO, in the end, it'll all come down to what people want. Its sad, because it is a fact that people will leave a school and go elsewhere, where they will get what they want, as fast as they want. That will hurt the more traditional schools, however on the flip side, the people that do want the hardcore workouts, will keep those trad. schools open.

People running around with a resume that states they train in 10 different arts, with multiple 7th and 8th degree black belts

There are always con men, flim flam men, and students who just like to collect belts and are awareded high rank for cash in multiple orgs. And there always will be. I think that these individuals have less of an impact on the arts than we who are concerned often think that they do.

Daniel

 

[xJOHNx]

The problem is if not handled very, very carefully by his instructor and parents there is a good chance in another few years when he becomes a teen that he will stop altogether in favor of other activities. The skills he has will dissappear rather quickly and he will be someone who used to train and oh yes has a blackbelt. (there are literally thousands upon thousands of them) There is a very, very good chance he will then miss the life long benefits of practicing the Martial Sciences!

True that!

Didn't Machida start training from age 2?

 

[pmosiun1]

10yo black belts, mcdojos, people running around with a resume that states they train in 10 different arts, with multiple 7th and 8th degree black belts.

Those are just a few of the 'pet peeves' that some people have with the martial arts today. My question is simple: In your opinion, do you feel that these things take anything away from the martial arts? Do you feel that these things make others, who may/may not train in those arts, view them in a bad way?

No, if you work hard and spar. It does not take anything away from you. Most people don't know much about martial art.

 

[Cirdan]

10yo black belts, mcdojos, people running around with a resume that states they train in 10 different arts, with multiple 7th and 8th degree black belts.

Those are just a few of the 'pet peeves' that some people have with the martial arts today. My question is simple: In your opinion, do you feel that these things take anything away from the martial arts?

Generally no.
It does hurt the arts however, when a great sensei starts doing those things because of greed and a runaway ego.