I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[Kung Fu Wang]

to be used against an aggressive attacker ...

If I want to test my

- "head punch defense", I would find a boxer to test it.
- "roundhouse kick defense", I would find a MT guy to test it.
- "single leg defense", I would find a wrestler to test it.
- "hip throw defense", I would find a Judoka to test it.
- ...

IMO, a striker should concern about "not to be taken down" before he should concern about "how to play the ground game". So if your opponent tries to take you down with "hip throw", how will you deal with it? Of course you can punch like a machine gun and kill every person in your punching range. As long as you can prevent your opponent from getting a successful clinch, your striking will be very effective. The concern is if your opponent gets the clinch that he wants, your ability to deal with that clinch will be critical. What kind training do you need after a clinch is made?

 

[Hanzou]

Well I've spent approx. 2 hours today viewing some 'Anti-Grappling' videos. Viewed videos by different instructors but I did not view everything available. Of those I did, in none of them did the instructor/s state anything about anti grappling being effective against a trained grappler. In most there were references that there is always the possibility of a fight going to the ground and one needs to be able to survive long enough to get back to a standing position preferably. In a couple the viewers were even encouraged to get with grapplers and train.(smart thing to do)
.

It's stated on the website that the vids are counters against "advanced grapplers".

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  Description
  
  Victor Gutierrez - Wing Tsun DVD 09 - Anti-Grappling and Chi Gerk
  
  In this new and spectacular work, Sifu Victor Gutierrez addresses the techniques of Chi Gerk (sticky legs) and Anti-Grappling for advanced Wing Tsun’ers.
  
  He examines how to deal with advanced grapplers, who know how to implement the softness of adhering to us, while looking for the empty space to move into and exert maximum pressure.
  
  This video will uncover the secrets of how to defend against grapplers by using the most advanced techniques and effective Wing Tsun
  
  Format: DVD-R NTSC
  Languages: English, Spanish, French, German, Italian
  Other info: All region DVD
  
  Features

Probably just trying to sell DVDs.

 

[Jake104]

The OP video is very similar to this. Both seem like after thoughts to systems of fighting lacking in certain areas...

 

[Steve]

It's stated on the website that the vids are counters against "advanced grapplers".

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Probably just trying to sell DVDs.

That ain't good, and that's what causes concern.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...However, since YOU brought it up, let's discuss the differences. On one hand you have people actually fighting each other in challenge matches, and the other you have a demonstration where no contact is made.

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Thanks for the notoriety....

I would LOVE to to see anti-grappling utilized against a MMA fighter or a grappler. I mean why not? They claim that WC anti-grappling is effective against skilled grapplers.

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Right, we have a dearth of TMA competitors demonstrating so in the MMA arena, particularly WC. I personally can't fix that....
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Maybe you can reach out to some WC org's to address the issue.

You see, the Gracies said that their system worked against skilled martial artists, and then proceeded to fight various skilled martial artists to prove their claims. WC anti-grappling can't claim the same thing. So no one is throwing stones anywhere, there's reality and then there's nonsense.

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Don't buy the Gracie track-record. Do respect the BJJ system developed by Helio G.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I don't know why you keep bringing up the Gracies, or their promotional vids from the 1990s. No one is talking about them, and no one is saying that Gjj is invincible. In fact, in modern MA, Gjj/Bjj is just one of several grappling systems that has rose to prominence since the first UFC and the rising popularity of MMA.

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I bring up the Gracie's 'cause there's this mystique that traditional karate does not provide is training to stop grapplers.
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Clearly it shook members of the WC and other MA communities enough to create utterly bogus and silly sub-systems to attempt to counter it.

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BTW, there is a recent promotional YT Video of Stephen "Wonderboy" Thomspon talking about the use of the karate stance in MMA. He flatly states that when he entered MMA, all his training partners could take him down from his karate stance at will. He had to make some adjustments.... can't say what those were....
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The YT Vid is a promotion of his next upcoming fight with Jake Ellenberger.... in July I believe.
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Any how, this is where the grappling mystique of superiority over karate traditional stances is given wing.... this kind of actual conflict experience....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

all his training partners could take him down from his karate stance at will. He had to make some adjustments.... can't say what those were.....

From a wrestler point of view, If you use

- wide stance, you opponent can take you down by "single leg".
- narrow stance, your opponent can take you down by "double legs".

Since you can still apply counters against your opponent's "single leg", but you can't apply any counters against your opponent's "double legs", IMO, the Karate side way lower stance is still better than the narrow higher forward stance. At least, your opponent may get your leading leg, but he can't get your back leg. As long as you can pull your leading leg back fast enough to avoid your opponent's "single leg" shooting, you are safe.

Even if your opponent may grab on your leading leg, if you can stick your leading leg between his legs, you can glue your body on top of your opponent's body, you can then wait for the right opportunity to attack.

 

[drop bear]

The OP video is very similar to this. Both seem like after thoughts to systems of fighting lacking in certain areas...

Except of course almost nothing works unarmed vs knife.

 

[Jake104]

Except of course almost nothing works unarmed vs knife.

Agreed! Point of videos is still the same. Both are selling fantasy. The Gracies is more dangerous IMO. So Wing Chun has no ground game and BJJ and JJJ has no weapon game on the ground? Actually not true. The grappling/ground fighting I'm involved with is not sport fighting and yes we deal with weapons. The Wing Chun I'm involved with also deals with the ground/grappling. Since it's principal based and not technique based. Ideas overlap.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed! Point of videos is still the same. Both are selling fantasy. The Gracies is more dangerous IMO. So Wing Chun has no ground game and BJJ and JJJ has no weapon game on the ground? Actually not true. The grappling/ground fighting I'm involved with is not sport fighting and yes we deal with weapons. The Wing Chun I'm involved with also deals with the ground. Since it's principal based and not technique based. Ideas overlap.

Some do some outright conflict. If you are trying to wrestle using striking principles it mostly doesn't work.

 

[Jake104]

Some do some outright conflict. If you are trying to wrestle using striking principles it mostly doesn't work.

Combats is combat! If your using wrestling in combat why can't you punch? Striking principles? Like what? Forward energy and elbows in? Sounds like wrestling principles?

 

[Jake104]

What about centerline and COG? Grappling uses these ideas? No?

 

[Jake104]

I can use my tan sao to hip stop an under hook throw? Then use my LAN Sao with my turning horse to get the opponents back and choke?

 

[drop bear]

Combats is combat! If your using wrestling in combat why can't you punch? Striking principles? Like what? Forward energy and elbows in? Sounds like wrestling principles?

So you are going to punch your way off your back?

And for wrestling you forgot arms down heavy hips and chin up.

 

[drop bear]

What about centerline and COG? Grappling uses these ideas? No?

Not really. You are normally attacking a base so it would not be the center line. Ankle picks and such.

 

[Jake104]

Are you going to have arms down and chin up In combat? Of coarse not. I'm not going to punch my way off my back. I'm going to use the same principles and ideas I'd use in the clinch, standing, sitting,whatever. Forward energy redirecting trapping. Not trapping in the traditional sense but rather in the wrestling sense of the word. But wait. Wrestlers/ grapplers trap????

 

[Jake104]

Not really. You are normally attacking a base so it would not be the center line. Ankle picks and such.

Wing Chun attacks root? Base, root sounds kind of similar.?

 

[drop bear]

I can use my tan sao to hip stop an under hook throw? Then use my LAN Sao with my turning horse to get the opponents back and choke?

Potentially. But there are better methods.

The guy you are fighting would have to be pretty static.

 

[Jake104]

You can't tell me Wrestling doesn't have COG?

Potentially. But there are better methods.

The guy you are fighting would have to be pretty static.

Tan in the vid is how beginners learn it. Tan Sao is really an idea? You can move all you like. Under hook over hook. It really makes no difference. Why? Because the idea stays the same.

 

[drop bear]

Are you going to have arms down and chin up In combat? Of coarse not. I'm not going to punch my way off my back. I'm going to use the same principles and ideas I'd use in the clinch, standing, sitting,whatever. Forward energy redirecting trapping. Not trapping in the traditional sense but rather in the wrestling sense of the word. But wait. Wrestlers/ grapplers trap????

For the time it takes to sprawl out of a takedown yes. Because that is the most effective method of stopping it.

So are you going to bother with ideas like shrimping and sit outs? Or are they technique driven and not concept driven?