Anti-Grappling Demos

Si-Je

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Yes, Rook. I have used these exact techniques on grapplers several times. And yes, these grapplers when they take me down always try to get between my legs. We don't have BJJ guard, we don't wrap our feet behind the attackers back.

and yes, i've had many grapplers try to pry my knees apart, becasue they get in the way of them striking, choking, and arm baring.

And Yes, I've had these MMA grapplers lean over my knees to try to strike many times. They do lean you learn sensitivity you can feel their body shift, etc. as explained earlier.

And no, BJJ is NOT good for one with one arm, you could make it work if you tried really hard. But it isn't practial. our student did well against a partner who'd been studing BJJ for a year. Plus, we didn't have to modify the WC concept very much for our student. the guy got his full arm in an armbar and he used the same arm to get out of it using tan sau and corkscrewing his body out of the hold. same WC concept.

and no, we don't let a grappler get to our side, that spells trouble.

I've explained the techniques in painful detail. read again, and try in class. or don't. you agree with my WC concept and then say it can't be applied to the ground fighting. Try it, then come back. actually try the anti-grappling at a school that teaches it, then come back and tell me your experiences. until then, I don't know what to say to you. I've given thorough explanation on specific techniques, and mechanics of what we do. Yet you still don't understand. You have already formed an opinion on something you haven't tried, and no little to nothing about. I was trying to explain it to those that haven't been exposed to anti-grappling, but if you've already got your mind made up, then study BJJ.

And Yes, I have done these techniques on grapplers many times and many times my size. Trust me, they work fine, if you do what I've stated. I wouldn't state this is as very effective if I hadn't tried it out on well trained grapplers, and if my teacher hadn't used the techniques too. He's used them in the U.S.M.C in combat, in recon, against black belts of BJJ, against american wrestlers well versed in "grappling'.

You can believe it or not, it's up to you. Just sharing knowledge I've learned by doing, no big deal. you don't agree, free country.
 

monji112000

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OK we can see very clearly that two different opinions are present.


One that Emin's Anti-grappling is a viable solution.


The other that it isn't.


I am sure you arn't going to convince me and I can't convince you.
I also noticed that Emin's WT is much different than the Wing Chun I have seen for many years. This is a main reason why I think its smarter to add someone's name or description and not just change a spelling.
I will note that you really don't understand how a modern western boxer fights. But, I am sure we will also disagree on his/her methods.
I am sure you guys train Chi sao allot. I have seen only one clip of Emin doing chi sao, and it looked better than most clips ... for a few seconds.
Actually a good ground fighter is will get on top of your body and control you. Its not beneficial to be between your hips, unless the person is trying to rape you. This is a very real situation, but don't confuse the two.
Its not so simple to say that they will just roll over if you hit them with a fist.


Please take a note of this clip


Notice that
1. notice how the Ground and Pounder doesn't enter between the person's legs (his guard).
The best place to be is mounted on the person.
2. notice how while the person on the ground was hitting with all him might, it didn't really do much effect.
3. notice how full extension of the hand isn't realistic every time someone is trying to hurt you.


YES you can poke the guy in the eyes and many other street fighting stuff. I am not saying that this isn't a option.
Pelase watch this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzMXch1FYDs&mode=related&search=
take note of something:
1. look at how Bas is mounted, this is what people love to do, and its deadly if you are the bottom.


2. Notice how bas is “trapping” to the center.. hmm looks like a idea someone told me in class the other day. So WC isn't MMA?


3.Notice the traingle when the person tries to raise his hips and get out from under the mount. When you jam with your bong sao, you avoid jamming with this area of the triangle, because its the weakest.


Please take note of this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVbEvRQh-kM&mode=related&search=


1. notice that around 2:29 Bas “traps” one hand then does a straight punch. The reason being he is clear , with little chance of taking a heavy shot. The other hand can still hit, but its limited, plus you need timing ect..


Please take note of this clip:


notice that


1. the bottom person was in a “closed guard”, and how the bottom person could strike (ie chain punch)..but he has a great deal of punches coming at him. If he trys to punch, he will open himself up. They will exchange blows and he will probably take more then the top ground and pounder.

2. Notice how the top ground and pounder is constantly using one arm to apply pressure or grab the bottom person's hand(s).


If this was a standing fight, then I would say learn to keep a proper distance, and learn to cover. Its not so ...?


(I hate tank )
some clips to watch
I have been at the bottom. Please don't pretend that its a peace of cake.

good luck training:asian:
 
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Si-Je

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Okay, no. when he's trapping the opponents hand to punch his leg position behind his back is no good. from there the opponent can punch and attacke you while he's between your legs. This mentality that the opponent is "in your guard" and that your "safe" is false.
Point is, he is PAST your guard and is in range to strike, and choke you.

Keeping your knees together and NOT letting them in between your legs is the key. That's what I'm trying to convey.

as for keeping a grappler from getting to your side, there are several ways to do this depending on their position. Kicking, corkscrewing your body on the ground so they do not get to a side position.
This guy in the videos are completely open to get Bas off their side.
Plus, no one's using their arms to defend while Bas is striking from on top.

The same for the guys in the first video street fighting. The guy on the ground is desperate, he has no technique for striking from on his back. You show me a video of completely untrained people and say that it is evidence of the ineffictivness of anti=grappling. False.
Neither of those guys know anything but street fighting, see that stuff all the time in my neighborhood. The guy doing the take down may have learned some BJJ, but his opponent knows nothing. Hense, he is beaten.
This is what annoys me the most about BJJ stylists. They fight untrained people, and show videos that mean nothing. All while stating the awsomeness of BJJ grappling. or, they fight people who do not know any ground fighting technique at all, and state how superior they are. If you play by a grapplers rules, then you are a slave to those rules when fighting, and chances are the grappler will win.

look again at Sifu Guiterrez's videos. His students train wrestling and BJJ. They are actually getting hit in the head, neck, and face when he's showing these techniques. That's how they train over there. The reason the don't have a "back up plan" is because their getting punched in the eye. lol!

It's just really disheartening to me to see Wing Chun students, practitioners and teachers down their own system. And that are unwilling to embrace something new.
Again.
Go to a school that teaches anti-grappling, try it. and come back and let me know what you think. until you do that, your not going to understand it, and your opinion of it has no basis.
I've studied and trained Ju-Jitsu for years, wrestled, whatever. I at least base my opinion on past experience.
 

Si-Je

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Pardon,
I'm getting a little frustrated here. I've explained it the best I can again. What's left is for those that read it to either try it, or not. It's up to you. I can't really change minds here, I know.
I'm just speaking from what has worked 100% for me so far.
I've stated my lineage already, which is Jim Fung and Leung Ting directly to Yip man third generation. If that doesn't qualify "my wing chun" enough to be legitimate, I really don't know what to say.

But it really doesn't matter. I know the value of what I'm being taught, and I've seen the way others teach WT/WC online videos, and the students that come to our class from other teachers. And my opinion of them isn't always diplomatic, for I see things that aren't being taught.

We do teach differently than most. I'm finding that out. But, so does Emin and Fung, my teachers teachers.

Pardon if I got a bit riled up on that last post. Just got a little frustrated. I thought I had explained it all so clearly.

Please feel free to look at our videos on the school website, off my space account or my teachers my space account to see more of what we do. Their listed in my profile.
 

Ram

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look again at Sifu Guiterrez's videos. His students train wrestling and BJJ.

They grapple then learn to defend it.That is what I have been saying all along. All a CMA person has to do is learn about basic wrestling or bjj techniques and you can see them coming.That way you can avoid them and then ground and pound a proven technique against Bjj championed by hybrid freestyle fighters.
Still no anti-grappling just grappling and ground and pound.
 

Si-Je

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Not really. all you need to know is the basic entries for takedowns that a MMA or grappler will try to use to get you to the ground. These guys trained enough to understand grappling, wrestling, etc. Emin was into turkish wrestling and boxing before he trained WT. He just knew from experience how to design counters for this kind of attack.

These videos really proves my point. When executing a Grappling takedown entry they crouch and lean forward into you head first. With their head at you waist level or lower.
Thus, shifting their weight forward into you.

I've only spoken about what to do when your already on the ground with a grappler, these are some of the things you do when they lunge in for a takedown.

Anti-grappling counter:
1. a good heel kick to the face, or a knee under the chin or face will deter this take down.

2. Your stance will change from traditional WC when dealing with a grappler trying to execute a take down on you. Keeping your legs apart, it makes it harder for them to grab both legs to take you down. More of a butterfly swords stance. Many schools do not do this, they stay in advanced stance, big mistake. grapplers LOVE this foot foreward stance, makes it easy for them to take you down. Stick to basic (horse) and widen it as they come in, droping your center of gravity to keep your feet.

3. Plus, you elbow the back of the neck/spine as they come in while your kicking or kneeing them in the face. Chain punching works great here too (being a woman, I prefer the palm strike to the back of a man's head, chops, forearm shiver.)

4. As a bonus, you can tuck the top of their head into your stomach, with a forearm at their throat and the other clamping on the back of their neck. Sure they can take you down, but from this position you can break the neck if you keep the head all the way to the ground.

I'm not very impressed with the encounters I've had with grappling. They were always fun to practice and spar, but these are techniques that are pretty usless to me. I would NEVER run head first into a large man's groin level and try to pick him up off the ground. man, that would be stupid! lol! I've taken Judo and have been able to throw large men, but by using leverage and keeping my back straight. I'd just hurt myself really bad using grappling on an opponent. (and yes, I've given it the old college try at seminars and in class, that's how I know it won't work for me against a true agressor). Definately a strong man's sport my friends.



The WC "takedowns" I'm learning are much different. You keep your center of gravity grounded and your upper body straight. Alot of manipulation of the head and neck to take down the opponent while striking and kicking, of course. always striking, kicking, stepping into your opponents space all at the same time. Deflecting their strikes when necessary. You can have an attacker on the ground much quicker and without compromising your own position in the fight.
 

Si-Je

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I have been at the bottom. Please don't pretend that its a peace of cake.

good luck training:asian:

I didn't mean to imply that it was a "peice of cake". But there is much you can do.

We were training last night, looking at the MMA and BJJ clips you posted. Very good references for us, if this is the way people are fighting.

We started as the "man on the bottom" (Bas's partner) while an opponent is at your side, elbowing or kneeing. He leans over the opponent big time as he's cocking his knee back to knee the head or ribs. His weight is forward on his hands. This is what I was talking about, the opportune moment you must take advantage of when your on your back. The body weight shift.

As he was in guard position on top, he leaned all his body weight foreward on the partner on the ground to choke, just like I said. Again, using their forward force and pressure to re-direct them off of you completely. You don't stay on the ground if possible, but if your there there is plenty to punch, knee, elbow, and forearm shiver. even head butt (but that's not my preference lol!)

Thanks for the videos, I see alot of opportunity and holes to use to get out of these positions. It's hard to train this with my teacher because he doesn't fight like these guys at all. It's hard for him to mimic these positions for training, for what he would normaly do is so completely different and much harder to counter.

Like I said the grappler grapples you to the ground, their hands, body and legs are pinning you down. okay, now for him to actually do damage to you they MUST move (shift body weight ) to punch, knee, elbow, etc. Thus, when they shift body position to be able to do these things is when you respond. With your entire body as one. deflecting, striking, kicking/kneeing, moving, unbalancing them, and corkscrewing your body to get out from under them. No ONE technique will work. Just like Wing Chun standing, you do more than one thing at a time on the ground too. ;)
 

Journeyman

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Can someone explain to me why a person who is supposedly knowledgable about martial arts would go to the trouble of making videos that are so clueless about the art they are trying to counter? Gutierrez's techniques *might* be *somewhat* effective against grappling, but the fact they they're being demonstrated against very poor examples of grappling diminishes the credibility. If you're going to make a videos of that type, why not do it right? His book "Wing Tsun: The Tao of the Action" suffers from the same failing. How do Boztepe's compare in that regard?
 

Lisa

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FINAL MODERATOR WARNING:

PLEASE KEEP THE CONVERSATION POLITE AND RESPECTFUL. THERE HAVE BEEN TWO MODERATOR WARNINGS PLACED THAT HAVE BEEN IGNORED. ANY FURTHER SUCH ACTION WILL RESULT IN THIS THREAD BEING CLOSED DOWN.

THANK YOU.

Lisa Deneka
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Journeyman

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Hi Lisa,

It would be helpful if you would quote some of the objectionable passages in this thread, so people can get some idea of what constitutes "sniping" or "making fun". Since your latest warning came immediately after my post, it makes me wonder if it was directed at me, but I don't see how I could have possibly sniped or made fun of another member unless Victor Gutierrez is a member, and even then calling my criticism of his videos and book sniping or making fun is a stretch.
 

MJS

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Hi Lisa,

It would be helpful if you would quote some of the objectionable passages in this thread, so people can get some idea of what constitutes "sniping" or "making fun". Since your latest warning came immediately after my post, it makes me wonder if it was directed at me, but I don't see how I could have possibly sniped or made fun of another member unless Victor Gutierrez is a member, and even then calling my criticism of his videos and book sniping or making fun is a stretch.

Here are the general posting rules of the forum.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=141&

I do not believe that the warning was due to your post, but instead to others that have been made.

Mike
 

Lisa

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Ladies and Gentlemen,

Several of the posts in this thread were brought to the attention of the Moderating team. After discussion it was decided that in thread warnings not directed specfically at anyone would be placed in hopes to make everyone aware and double check their posting habits. If the issues were regarding you specifically, we will contact you about it privately.

Lets return to topic please and discuss the videos at hand.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator
 

The Master

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So, are we here to discuss rules and poo flinging and hot tempers, or are we here to discuss anti-grappling?
 

Si-Je

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This is apparently a pretty controversial topic. The anti-grappling techniques are fairly new, only about 6-8 years old and still changing. I've read many posts on several boards and sites and discovered that the anti-grappling techniques are generally not accepted, understood, or seen as valid.
People tend to get pretty heated sometimes. Grappling and BJJ has really become the status quo it seems. I'm facinated with the anti-grappling because it is so new and different, but it seems that many others do not feel the way I do about it.
The origionator of the post is just honestly curious to the mechanics, and practicality of anti-grappling. I've tried to answer questions as best I could about the techniques. But it seems that I haven't really been too successful.
If anything I said was viewed as derogitory, trolling, or antagonistic I do apologize. This was not my intention at all. I do have strong opinions about grappling and anti-grappling just from personal experiences. but I never ment to come off rude.
 
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