Anti grappling! (standing up) or threats!

Nabakatsu

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So, has any WT guy/gal out there fought against someone who likes to utilize standing grappling techniques/holds? I have no idea whether or not they could be able to apply such a technique when they are eating punches so fast and fighting for their balance, but the thought occurred to me whilst watching some videos a friend sent me, she's rather into grappling or at least has studied it a bit, and yeah.. I was curious if that is a threat to us, or perhaps what do you fine folks deem WC/WT's biggest threat to be if any? :p
A lot of the videos I saw would require so it seemed to me, and I am a complete novice but.. seems like you'd need a willing member to fully be able to apply some of the stuff, but.. like I said i'm a novice! thanks in advance!
 

Hagakure

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So, has any WT guy/gal out there fought against someone who likes to utilize standing grappling techniques/holds? I have no idea whether or not they could be able to apply such a technique when they are eating punches so fast and fighting for their balance, but the thought occurred to me whilst watching some videos a friend sent me, she's rather into grappling or at least has studied it a bit, and yeah.. I was curious if that is a threat to us, or perhaps what do you fine folks deem WC/WT's biggest threat to be if any? :p
A lot of the videos I saw would require so it seemed to me, and I am a complete novice but.. seems like you'd need a willing member to fully be able to apply some of the stuff, but.. like I said i'm a novice! thanks in advance!

Hmmmm... Chain punching whilst in a Muay Thai clinch, for example, could be tricky, you can argue that you're raining punches on them, but you may well be eating knees and elbows galore. Be careful mate. I'm skeptical about "anti-grappling", you can certainly use the chain punching as a bridge into gaining contact, what you do then presents you with a multitude of options.

Certain techniques designed to keep you from going on the deck are of use, such as the sprawl, if you practice them, perhaps practice with someone who's an experienced grappler, so they know all the little tricks, and the better prepared you are to face them, the better your odds of winning. ;)

Even then, practising the sprawl, is no guarantee that you won't get taken to the deck.

Wing Chuns biggest threat in my view are some of the people who practice it and INSIST that it's all encompassing and can defeat everything and anything, anytime, any place. So long as that time and place ISN'T the octagon or ring. This will likely rub a few people up the wrong way, so let me make this clear. I "LOVE" Wing Chun. I really do. It's "my" art. My base art, and I think about it, the forms, techniques, how I might use it in a SD scenario on a very regular basis. However, I recognise the validity in improving my knowledge and am not so closeminded or myopic to think that WC is not without its limitations. My advice would be to retain a very open mind, and train with as many guys/gals from as many backgrounds as you can, and pick up as many tips/techniques as you can. If there's something you like in particular, perhaps train that as a secondary art. It's your choice, but the moment I find a decent grappling class in my local town (and believe me, I have been scouring the net), I'm there.
 
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Nabakatsu

Nabakatsu

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Keeping an open mind is definitely good advice! It would really be nice to have an answer to all situations standing, and be able to keep it standing forever, but it would be insane not to prepare for going to the ground, whilst I haven't seen any WT ground game ever used, I'm quite impressed with Emin Boztepe this far, and i'd really like to learn it and test it against some good bjj guys, or wrestlers, I definitly can't wait to practice wing tzun against karate muay thai and boxing ect ect, time will tell I guess!
 

Hagakure

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Keeping an open mind is definitely good advice! It would really be nice to have an answer to all situations standing, and be able to keep it standing forever, but it would be insane not to prepare for going to the ground, whilst I haven't seen any WT ground game ever used, I'm quite impressed with Emin Boztepe this far, and i'd really like to learn it and test it against some good bjj guys, or wrestlers, I definitly can't wait to practice wing tzun against karate muay thai and boxing ect ect, time will tell I guess!

Are you talking about in a ring environment? If so, what rule set, MT, full MMA with ground fighting etc? If it's the latter, I'd again think twice about being able to keep it standing forever. Not saying it's not impossible, far from it.

I think WC tends to be quite short ranged in its scope. Meaning getting close is the main area where you'll cause potential damage to an opponent. With a mainly MT guy you're going to be coming up against a lot of knees and elbows in a clinch type situation. So you're able to do the same, but it becomes a war of attrition then. Those guys will be conditioned to it fully, so should you be.

As for testing WC against other striking arts, such as boxing, you may actually fare well. A sifu in my organisation who shall remain nameless picked up a boxer as a student after being challenged by said boxer, and bare-knuckle, in a ring, this sifu did quite well...

Don't forget that all of this is just word-fu. Anyone can talk a good fight, the reality all boils down to on the day, how good/fit are you, how good/fit is the other guy.
 

mook jong man

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I think all this grappling stuff has been discussed on here ad infinitum , a neck grab is serious whether it be a thai neck clasp , a yobbo grabbing you around the throat or some one attempting to go for a head lock.

If they have got to that point it means you have done something wrong or you were caught with your hands down . I will talk about the last situation first where you have been caught with your hands down and somebody has grabbed you around the neck with both hands and they are trying to pull you down into a knee strike .

First thing you will rely on is your structure , you must keep your spine straight and not allow your head to be pulled down , you can be pulled forward but not down. The instant the attacker grabs your neck and goes to bring up his knee , use the very first move of the SLT form , the double low crossed hands .

You turn the hands and strike forward and downward into his bladder region with the outer heels of both your palms , don't strike the abs ,too much muscle . But in training hit your partner in the gut , not the bladder.


If people can get to your neck when you have your guard up then you need to work on your reflexes , start practicing against random throat grabs both double and single , against a single grab just use pak sau and punch and against a double throat grab just raise your guard on the inside and deflect both his arms .

When you start doing double sticking hands and chi sau sparring you will get better at keeping hands away from your neck because a lot of the attacks in chi sau are piercing Tan sau's up to the sides of your neck. Now if you are getting grabbed around the neck in mid fight by a non WC stylist then you must not be controlling the centerline or you are not hitting them .

If you are chain punching furiously then that particular avenue is closed off to me to try and grab through the middle so that means I have to go around which A) gives you more time to see it coming and react and B) leaves me unprotected as I try to go around your arms.

But if you are really worried about it get some one to attack you with a mixture of random punches and neck grabs . As for grappling if theres someone near that teaches it then go for it , I myself have done 2 types , I did a bit of shootfighting which was all submissions and I did a bit of the Krav Maga type which is hardly no submissions , just nasty stuff and striking . I enjoyed both types very much.
 

koenig

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I was over-confident the first time I sparred against a BJJ guy... and I subsequently got owned in like 30 seconds.

Fortunately they were cool (it was at a MMA type school) and I started training with them for a while.

I don't believe that pure WC can be used against BJJ based on experience. I do believe, however, that WC can be incorporated into BJJ.
 

Beginner's Mind

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I was over-confident the first time I sparred against a BJJ guy... and I subsequently got owned in like 30 seconds.

Fortunately they were cool (it was at a MMA type school) and I started training with them for a while.

I don't believe that pure WC can be used against BJJ based on experience. I do believe, however, that WC can be incorporated into BJJ.

I think the crucial thing is the BJJ guy came from an MMA type school. I believe a purist will always have a hard time against a mixed artist, simply because he'll find himself in an unfamiliar territory.

I'll never forget a sparring session I had. A friend and I started with Wing Chun, he knocked air out of my lungs and swept me down. He then went down with a knee on my body to use chain punches to force me to tap. Still a bit dizzy, I threw a weak attempt at a guillotine choke. I couldn't lock it, and the guy could have broken free easily and finish me off.

Instead, he tapped. Why? He's never seen a guillotine choke, he didn't know this one was bad, and he was impressed by what he's heard of grappling. He assumed just because I knew of ground fighting techniques, if he resisted, I'd injure him badly.

The morale? You lose to what you don't understand. If you don't fall for a grappler's tricks, such as trying to push him off the mount with outstretched arms, you've increased your chances - but then you are beginning to think like an MMA guy.
 

Si-Je

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Here's some video's. Keep training what your training. Give it a good year. Watch these video's of some of your own WT Sifu's and guys and well, make up your own mind.
And realize, that no one in any other Wing Chun style is training what you will be training, much less have they ever been exposed to it, experienced it, felt it, or sparred with it. Your systems "answer" for the ground, clinch, grappler, whatever is totally unique. Wait until you've gotten a chance to learn it then decide.
My Sifu trained Wing Tsun with Emin and when Emin left to form Wing Tzun, so he's teaching me what you'll be learning for the answer to the "clinch" or ground take down whatever. I love it, others here don't because they don't train it and don't know it. You can't feel a video, lol! But you can get an idea....


Grab that head and go to your butt ;) You'll love this guy WT all the way...

Sifu Emin demonstrating leg "chi sau" at :21 seconds. I'm just now learning this stuff. :)

He explains how to do it more in this video:

Don't forget Sifu Guiterrez! Nice hook punch at 3:25, neck throw at 3:55, and some BJJ guy at 4:15 and after that alot of anti-grappling

I'm learning spanish so I can understand this stuff. But, without it you'll still see what he demonstrates. Learn these elbows at 3:50 before you fight in the cage. :) And the uppercut to the gut he does and that WT hook punch he sneaks in there too. ;)

This should answer your question. But hey, he did pick up the WT guy. lol!

Sifu Bahri, just found him today. neat high kick defense, would this stuff work on MT? why not?

This is just basic stuff, but works most of the time on the street.


 
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Si-Je

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I was over-confident the first time I sparred against a BJJ guy... and I subsequently got owned in like 30 seconds.

Fortunately they were cool (it was at a MMA type school) and I started training with them for a while.

I don't believe that pure WC can be used against BJJ based on experience. I do believe, however, that WC can be incorporated into BJJ.

This is the mindset I would just cry if you fell for. Your system doesn't need this. This thinking will mess up your training in Wing Tzun.
 

Seeker

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The only "anti-grappling" I ever see is drills with compliant/crappler opponents or schlock demos. And it always seems to be the old "If he does this, then I'll do that" mindset which is something I thought WC was supposed to be opposed to.

Does anyone ever train their "anti-grappling" against competent grapplers, or non-compliant opponents?
 

chisauking

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koenig sez: I don't believe that pure WC can be used against BJJ based on experience.

May I ask, what is your wing chun experience?

How did you engage with the grappler?

What was the 'test' environment?
 

Si-Je

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The only "anti-grappling" I ever see is drills with compliant/crappler opponents or schlock demos. And it always seems to be the old "If he does this, then I'll do that" mindset which is something I thought WC was supposed to be opposed to.

Does anyone ever train their "anti-grappling" against competent grapplers, or non-compliant opponents?

yes
 

elder999

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Never mind.


The only "anti-grappling" I ever see is drills with compliant/crappler opponents or schlock demos. And it always seems to be the old "If he does this, then I'll do that" mindset which is something I thought WC was supposed to be opposed to.
Does anyone ever train their "anti-grappling" against competent grapplers, or non-compliant opponents?


Got video?

'Cause , ya know, Nikki, you and Jesse (?) could have gotten someone a little more competent at the "shoot" for the filming of this demo:


or at least have learned how to from one of them…..:lol:
 
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mook jong man

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'Cause , ya know, Nikki, you and Jesse could have gotten someone a little more competent at the "shoot" for the filming of this demo:


or at least have learned how to from one of them..:lol:

There's nothing wrong with it , who do you think they are 20th Century Fox lol.
 
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Si-Je

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Oh! lol! Mikey wouldn't shoot in any harder on me. I got really mad at him too. I didn't even want to add those clips to the video. He had head gear on but said that I still hurt him through the face mask when I punched. And he kept complaining that the faster and harder he came in the more it hurt. What do you want me to do? lol! Working with what I had at the time. A very nice student that didn't like being the practice dummy.
:idunno:
And for the chubby guy on top of me later on in that video, old Ricky, he wouldn't go any harder because I was 3 1/2 months pregnant at the time. (That's why my foot got stuck when rolling him over. lol! damn hips!)

Their demo videos, and ameture at best.
Sorry we're not sponsered by Budo international. lol! But, even those full contact videos aren't good enough for people either.
I want to make more video's and scratch that one really bad, but Sifu Hubbie says no. :( That stuff was shot about 3 years ago! So very very outdated. :(
 

elder999

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There's nothing wrong with it , who do you think they are 20th Century Fox lol.


I put the "shoot" in "quotation marks", because I meant the attempted takedowns portrayed in the demo, which actually had a lot of good energy and really good points, and was technically better than a lot of stuff out there-including some Miyama ryu demos that people have posted (not me!)...:lol:

....but if every MMA guy, wrestler and BJJ practitioner attempted takedowns like that, anyone could win in the cage or the street without bothering to learn groundfighting....or "anti-grappling", for that matter...:lfao:
 

Si-Je

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The guys we had in class weren't even trained in MMA or grappling. Didn't have a clue. We told them and taught them on the spot how to "shoot" in. So, what you see there is their very first time doing the shoot.
After those were long gone and shot, then all the MMA and grappling guys came in to spar. But, we can't put their faces up on youtube without their permission now can we?
That would be naughty and costly. And well, just rude. Well have to get a contract lawyer draw us up some waiver forms for these guys that come in again to sign so we can get better more realistic, non-compliant, good grapplers on video for ya. ;)
I don't know if they'll even sign. lol! If we present it to them upon coming into class I bet you $50 bucks they just turn around and walk out. lol!
Or better yet! Maybe we could pay them $50 bucks and they'll go for it. :)
I don't know, just messing around. Ya'll get so serious about this "real proof" called video and because I can't just squat down an poop it out for ya then it just isn't any good. sigh. There's too many legal issues involved with "real fighting" and posting the video. People go to jail for assault for that now, kinda stupid to video yourself doing a real fight isn't it?
 

Si-Je

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Oh hey! we do have a student that's about 300lbs and a damn good wrestler in class now! If I post video of that defense now that would be funny!
He's fast, strong, loose as a goose too. Really good. But, me training against him full out would be a little scary, ridiculous, and well, just painful. lol!
Jesse does though, but he's a good solid 225lbs and tall so it's a great workout for him.
Hubbie does the ugly work for me that way, is that bad? :)
Then he smacks me around on the matts and trains me. He's still a ridiculously larger and stronger attacker for me, and doesn't let me just "slide" either. The husband/wife thing usually makes the workout meaner. lol!
But really, he's a good training partner, teacher, friend, and hubbie.
I'm desperately trying to get some wrestlers/grapplers to come over to the school and "spar" or train with him. But everyone we ask just won't do it. MMA guys at his work talk about how they'd just "take him down" promise to show (friendly match and all) and just never come. I think he's just too big and scary looking. But, they all want to play around with me. What's the deal?
We've tried inviting people nice, paying MMA guys to spar him (he does need the practice ya know), even tried a little "challenging". But, nothing. :(
We get students in pretty often with these backgrounds and get to train with them, but they usually don't want to come in fast and hard once they know what we're going to do in response. Stuck.
 

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