I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

K-man

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In fighting there is no such thing. Even boxers grapple. Standing clinch work Is Grappling, Lop Sao Is Grappling!!
Grappling is to grasp, seize, hold, clinch etc. be it standing or on the ground.
He calls what he does Anti-Grappling yet he shows numerous examples (poor but non the less) of grappling as anti grappling???
OK, but let's take it in the context intended, ground fighting.
 

drop bear

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In fighting there is no such thing. Even boxers grapple. Standing clinch work Is Grappling, Lop Sao Is Grappling!!
Grappling is to grasp, seize, hold, clinch etc. be it standing or on the ground.
He calls what he does Anti-Grappling yet he shows numerous examples (poor but non the less) of grappling as anti grappling???

Yes.... He says tentatively.

There are tactics you can employ that prevents the clinch, takedown, submission dynamic.

And promotes opportunities to strike.

A good well rounded fighter should be using both methods depending what they are trying to do.

And grappling to create opportunities to strike becomes a bit of a mouthful
 

Jake104

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Jake104

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Yes.... He says tentatively.

There are tactics you can employ that prevents the clinch, takedown, submission dynamic.

And promotes opportunities to strike.

A good well rounded fighter should be using both methods depending what they are trying to do.

And grappling to create opportunities to strike becomes a bit of a mouthful
Good post! For me, I prefer to train the clinch and become comfortable in it, rather then trying to avoid it. Chances are there will be a clinch. So training to avoid it may be wishful thinking. I'm fortunate enough to train with great grapplers. So I've become very at home in the clinch. On the ground for street protection. I have a folder blade with a skull crusher. So in the street I'd fear for my life and pull it out and deal with repercussion later.
 

geezer

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...IMO, "anti-" is a bad word to use. It will upset many people.

Reading peoples reactions on a number of threads, I've come to the same conclusion. Rather than "Anti-Grappling" I think I'd go with something like "Escape and Recovery Strategies for Strikers" ... something to file in your bag of "Oshit Techniques".
 

geezer

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The use of dogma.

So wing Chun wants a ground system but wants it to follow the principles of wing chun. And you wind up with a classical mess.

I don'y think most WC guys believe the system is, or should be, a ground fighting system, but they want a way to escape and recover their striking game. As K-Man said earlier, that's something all strikers want regardless of their style.

...Now as far as the "principles of Wing Chun", they are not anathema to grappling. Conceptually there is a lot of overlap if you are a broad-minded thinker. For starters, grappling involves efficiency, economy of movement, speed, timing, power generation, balance and sensitivity, big time -- almost like full body chi-sau. Now for the techniques -- you need a good grappling coach!
 

drop bear

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Good post! For me, I prefer to train the clinch and become comfortable in it, rather then trying to avoid it. Chances are there will be a clinch. So training to avoid it may be wishful thinking. I'm fortunate enough to train with great grapplers. So I've become very at home in the clinch. On the ground for street protection. I have a folder blade with a skull crusher. So in the street I'd fear for my life and pull it out and deal with repercussion later.

I clinch when I want to. (well depending on how good the other guy is)

Not when he does.

Good getting up off the ground and submission defence. Would have to be beneficial to the idea of going for a weapon.

I mean a lot of the ideas would match.
 

drop bear

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I don'y think most WC guys believe the system is, or should be, a ground fighting system, but they want a way to escape and recover their striking game. As K-Man said earlier, that's something all strikers want regardless of their style.

...Now as far as the "principles of Wing Chun", they are not anathema to grappling. Conceptually there is a lot of overlap if you are a broad-minded thinker. For starters, grappling involves efficiency, economy of movement, speed, timing, power generation, balance and sensitivity, big time -- almost like full body chi-sau. Now for the techniques -- you need a good grappling coach!

In that example of the video and the mindset behind that. And it is not a wing chun monopoly.

I have had good kick boxers try to out strike me from the bottom.

It is good to notice the overlapping methodology. It is pretty silly to manufacture them.
 

Buka

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Reading peoples reactions on a number of threads, I've come to the same conclusion. Rather than "Anti-Grappling" I think I'd go with something like "Escape and Recovery Strategies for Strikers" ... something to file in your bag of "Oshit Techniques".

"Bag of Oshit techniques".

Man, I really like that. I'll be using that term forever. Might even get my bag monogrammed. :)
 

Hanzou

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It doesn't work. It's pure nonsense created in order to steer potential students away from cross-training in grappling arts or MMA in general.

It's probably the lowest of the low in terms of martial arts training. Instead of admitting a weakness and simply pointing your students towards other places to address that weakness (or cross training and teaching your students personally), you create something wholly ineffective and LIE about its origins. I've actually heard WC practitioners say that this anti-grappling stuff has been in WC from the beginning. Hilarious.

Ironically, it actually makes your art look worse in the process. After all, if you're willing to allow this into your system, what else is in your system that is ineffective?
 

Hanzou

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What you might argue is that the videos shown don't demonstrate what they are trying to show as well as a BJJ black belt might show, but hey, we aren't training to fight BJJ black belts and we aren't planning to fight in the ring. In fact many of us are training with no desire to fight at all. In the unlikely event we might need our fighting skills, the person we are likely to be fighting will most likely be unskilled. To spend years training ground skills in the unlikely event that we will need them to fight on the ground against a skilled grappler is, to me a waste of time, unless that is the training you enjoy and want to do.

So, to those who keep wanting to bag 'anti-grappling', do something positive. Post some videos that will help those of us who don't want to stay on the ground instead of tearing down everything you see.

End of rant!

Here's the problem though; As MMA becomes more and more popular, you're going to have more people learning grappling. It doesn't help that there's literally thousands of instructional Youtube videos for Bjj, Sambo, Judo, and CACC out there that are incredibly good, and really simple to learn from. You're never going to be as good as Bjj upper belt, or a Judo/Sambo black belt, but someone could attain intermediate level or slightly higher by getting together with their buddies in a garage and simply grappling with each other. Couple that with someone from a solid/strong wrestling background, and that level of skill could potentially get even higher than that.

Your goal is to get up? Great. The person who put you down has a goal of keeping you pinned while he drops bombs on your face. What's worse is that in the unlikely event that you get back to your feet, nothing stops that guy from putting you right back on the ground again and dropping more bombs on your face. He has the advantage by default.

You simply can't count on the belief that your opponent will be unskilled, and you can't count on the belief that ineffective skills based on ineffective principles is going to save your hide. If you believe that you need to develop an entire system of "anti-grappling" to handle this hole in your art, as these WC instructors clearly believe that they do, then learn it the right way.

Learn how to grapple first, then learn how to PROPERLY counter it. If you're cobbling together a bunch of BS, then you're wasting your time, and potentially putting your student's lives at risk.
 
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Vajramusti

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Here's the problem though; As MMA becomes more and more popular, you're going to have more people learning grappling. It doesn't help that there's literally thousands of instructional Youtube videos for Bjj, Sambo, Judo, and CACC out there that are incredibly good, and really simple to learn from. You're never going to be as good as Bjj upper belt, or a Judo/Sambo black belt, but someone could attain intermediate level or slightly higher by getting together with their buddies in a garage and simply grappling with each other. Couple that with someone from a solid/strong wrestling background, and that level of skill could potentially get even higher than that.

Your goal is to get up? Great. The person who put you down has a goal of keeping you pinned while he drops bombs on your face. What's worse is that in the unlikely event that you get back to your feet, nothing stops that guy from putting you right back on the ground again and dropping more bombs on your face. He has the advantage by default.

You simply can't count on the belief that your opponent will be unskilled, and you can't count on the belief that ineffective skills based on ineffective principles is going to save your hide. If you believe that you need to develop an entire system of "anti-grappling" to handle this hole in your art, as these WC instructors clearly believe that they do, then learn it the right way.

Learn how to grapple first, then learn how to PROPERLY counter it. If you're cobbling together a bunch of BS, then you're wasting your time, and potentially putting your student's lives at risk.
 

Vajramusti

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It depends.... on whose wing chun you are referring to.
 

Vajramusti

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Right... :rolleyes:

Did you actually see the techniques shown in the OP?
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I did. he did it in his way. I would do it in mine.
There are different perspectives in wing chun.
 

Hanzou

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I did. he did it in his way. I would do it in mine.
There are different perspectives in wing chun.

Except we're not talking about your way, we're talking about his way, and his way (and the way of every WC anti-grappling video I've seen) is decisively the wrong way.
 

VT_Vectis

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Hanzou this is a thread for debate by WC people, about WC, for WC people.
How about you leave off commenting on the WC forum and save us all a lot of hassle? Before this thread , like every other thread on the WC forum which you comment on, turns into a "MMA/BJJ is the best and Wing Chun is useless" flamer, as usual.
 
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