I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

Tez3

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Cruel to see how they are not even able to have a proper head-cover up with their hands. Every kickboxer could knock them out with an aimed punch to the nose.


A KO with a punch to the nose, that's novel. I suppose it's because it breaks the bone and sends it into the brain? :rolleyes:
 

Jake104

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Face, meet mat!
 

JowGaWolf

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Some of that stuff would work but not in a competitive sport environment. There was part in the video where the Wing Chun attacks the eye and another one where he attacks the groin. I wouldn't exactly call it anti-grappling though. Other than the eye strike and attack to the groin, the rest of that video is trash in terms of anti-grappling. Real anti-grappling techniques do the following:
  1. Prevent your opponent from grabbing you.
  2. Reversing your opponent's grappling technique.
  3. Avoiding your opponent's attempted grabs completely by moving out of range.
The majority of what was in that video wouldn't defend against an Olympic wrestler's shoot. The thing I hate about videos like this is that they always shows the techniques on people who don't know how to wrestle or shoot for the legs. These videos are always demonstrated on non-wrestlers and non-grapplers.
 

Vajramusti

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A KO with a punch to the nose, that's novel. I suppose it's because it breaks the bone and sends it into the brain? :rolleyes:
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In the wing chun that I do-keep your structure squared- punch THROUGH the nose area-centerline-then punch withe other hand for insurance-
it can jar the brain-ina self defense situation-
 

Hanzou

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Some of that stuff would work but not in a competitive sport environment. There was part in the video where the Wing Chun attacks the eye and another one where he attacks the groin. I wouldn't exactly call it anti-grappling though. Other than the eye strike and attack to the groin, the rest of that video is trash in terms of anti-grappling. Real anti-grappling techniques do the following:
  1. Prevent your opponent from grabbing you.
  2. Reversing your opponent's grappling technique.
  3. Avoiding your opponent's attempted grabs completely by moving out of range.
The majority of what was in that video wouldn't defend against an Olympic wrestler's shoot. The thing I hate about videos like this is that they always shows the techniques on people who don't know how to wrestle or shoot for the legs. These videos are always demonstrated on non-wrestlers and non-grapplers.

Uh, you're going to have to be HIGHLY skilled to properly defend against an Olympic wrestler's shot. You honestly have to be pretty skilled to defend against a collegiate wrestler's shot. Wrestlers are take down masters. You're not going to learn how to stop takedowns like that in some karate/Kung fu school. Heaven help you if that wrestler learned submission grappling like leg locks, arm bars, or chokes.

Frankly, you need to learn wrestling to stop wrestling.

Which is why videos like that are so bad. Their counters are a complete fantasy performed by people who are no where close to the technical level of even a decent wrestler.
 
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Steve

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Uh, you're going to have to be HIGHLY skilled to properly defend against an Olympic wrestler's shot. You honestly have to be pretty skilled to defend against a collegiate wrestler's shot. Wrestlers are take down masters. You're not going to learn how to stop takedowns like that in some karate/Kung fu school. Heaven help you if that wrestler learned submission grappling like leg locks, arm bars, or chokes.

Frankly, you need to learn wrestling to stop wrestling.

Which is why videos like that are so bad. Their counters are a complete fantasy performed by people who are no where close to the technical level of even a decent wrestler.
I agree with everything except the above statement. To stop a wrestler, you need to learn some proper grappling skills. Judo, sambo, BJJ, wrestling, shiu jiao... something legit.
 

Hanzou

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I agree with everything except the above statement. To stop a wrestler, you need to learn some proper grappling skills. Judo, sambo, BJJ, wrestling, shiu jiao... something legit.

Yeah that's what meant. In my head I sometimes view those various styles as forms of wrestling, but I know that's not entirely accurate.

I actually rolled against a former collegiate wrestler a few days ago. Thank god for the guard is all I'm going to say. :)
 

JowGaWolf

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Uh, you're going to have to be HIGHLY skilled to properly defend against an Olympic wrestler's shot. You honestly have to be pretty skilled to defend against a collegiate wrestler's shot. Wrestlers are take down masters. You're not going to learn how to stop takedowns like that in some karate/Kung fu school. Heaven help you if that wrestler learned submission grappling like leg locks, arm bars, or chokes.

Frankly, you need to learn wrestling to stop wrestling.

Which is why videos like that are so bad. Their counters are a complete fantasy performed by people who are no where close to the technical level of even a decent wrestler.

I agree with you with being highly skilled in order to defend against a collegiate wrestler's shot. You can learn how to stop takedowns using your own form but you have to practice with someone who really knows how to shoot and not someone that is training the same striking art that you are taking. Even though I do Kung Fu, I spar with a Sanda group from time to time that likes to do shoots and other grappling take downs. It helps me to learn how to use my Kung Fu to defend against it. Most martial art students don't know how to shoot properly which is why there are so many people that think they can escape it.

With all of that said, I would never, NEVER, NEVER, try to defend against or counter a shoot by punching. Anyone that has a video or a martial arts demo that uses punches as a defense doesn't understand shooting. Anyone that takes a high narrow stance when fighting is just asking to be taken down by surprise.

This is a video of my brother who was a collegiate wrestler explaining basic shoot defense

This is a video of my brother in action. If you don't know how to defend against a shoot then you better learn how to escape from the submissions.
 

Hanzou

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I agree with you with being highly skilled in order to defend against a collegiate wrestler's shot. You can learn how to stop takedowns using your own form but you have to practice with someone who really knows how to shoot and not someone that is training the same striking art that you are taking. Even though I do Kung Fu, I spar with a Sanda group from time to time that likes to do shoots and other grappling take downs. It helps me to learn how to use my Kung Fu to defend against it. Most martial art students don't know how to shoot properly which is why there are so many people that think they can escape it.

With all of that said, I would never, NEVER, NEVER, try to defend against or counter a shoot by punching. Anyone that has a video or a martial arts demo that uses punches as a defense doesn't understand shooting. Anyone that takes a high narrow stance when fighting is just asking to be taken down by surprise.

This is a video of my brother who was a collegiate wrestler explaining basic shoot defense

This is a video of my brother in action. If you don't know how to defend against a shoot then you better learn how to escape from the submissions.

Nice vids. Interestingly, we have a similar system for setting up the guillotine in Bjj.

Yes, you are quite correct about punches and narrow stances. Again, its complete fantasy. I think the problem is that people who practice Eastern arts don't respect the technical level of wrestling, and think its just some dumb brawler trying to tackle from 20 feet away. Wrestling is as technical as any martial art out there, and wrestlers apply their art in a highly efficient and practical manner.
 

JowGaWolf

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Hanzou
They probably don't have the respect because if you think of a time where people lived in villages, carried hiking sticks, and knives then the last thing you would want to do is shoot on someone. That's a good way to get stabbed in the back. But in today's society not many people walk around with knives so the risk of being stabbed like that is really low. It only takes a few seconds to go for someone's legs, up root them, put them on their back, mount them and pound their face. The thing about being on your back is that you can't do any of the stuff that make punches powerful.
 

Tez3

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...................... I suppose it's because it breaks the bone and sends it into the brain? :rolleyes:


Dear Johhnynotenglish, that's a joke by the way based on the tired old martial arts clich矇s. The little emoticon tells you it's not for real.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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To stop a wrestler, you need to learn some proper grappling skills. Judo, sambo, BJJ, wrestling, shiu jiao... something legit.

Agree! Not only the "wrestling skill" but also the "wrestling experience" as well. In order to develop your wrestling experience, you will need to wrestle a lot.

Even if your opponent has already held on your leg, with your "wrestling experience", you can still do a lot of valid counters. In the following clip, many wrestling skills (not just one) are used to deal with the "single leg".

 
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D.Cobb

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What I don't get in all of this is, if you train a system that you believe has stood the test of time, then why try to change it. It's the karate-ka that adopts boxing stances and the WC guy that adopts some manner of ground fighting, and the Judo-ka that adopts boxing etc. The big problem is that if you can't devote as much time to your new art as did to your old one, then when the time comes to use it you will find your skill set lacking. In some cases, you may even end up being substandard in your original system as well... Do what you do and do it well, as the truth is if you ever need it, chances are the attacker won't be able to get past your intrinsic first line of defence.
 

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Nothing wrong with cross training to address gaps. I don't see anything wrong with a judoka cross training with boxing or karate. @D.Cobb, you seem to be suggesting that cross training is a bad idea. I disagree. It's a viable choice and I know many martial artists who cross train with great success.

The problem arises if a judoka with no striking experience invents an anti-striking judo chop system, fails to test this new system and then teaches that system to others.
 

geezer

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Generalist or specialist? The choice is totally up to you. It doesn't have to be like the old cliche, choosing between being the specialist who knows everything about nothing, or being the generalist who knows nothing about everything. Most of us fall somewhere in between. While it's recommendable to have a core system that you are very solid at, it is also advisable to, in the words of Sun Tzu, "know your enemy..."
 

JowGaWolf

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I have posted this clip twice and this is the 3rd time that I put it up. If one cares about anti-grappling, he should also care about "not to be on the bottom". IMO, that's a very very important anti-grappling skill.

We trained on not being grabbed at all. Grappling works only if the opponent can grab you. If we can prevent the grab then we can defeat the grappling without having to actually grapple to do it. We focus on tons of escapes and counters to avoid being brought down to the ground. This is a good example of what we try to accomplish in Jow Ga. And like you say abot "not to be on the bottom" Jow Ga takes into consideration that if we get into a fight that there may be 2 or more people involved, and being on the ground isn't an advantage for us. For some people they like it as you'll see in the video, but for strikers, it's about not being on the ground and not being grabbed.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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We trained on not being grabbed at all.
The question is, can you always prevent "clinch" and "ground"? You can't "anti" anything if you are not good in the thing that you try to "anti".

I don't believe that "anti-grappling" is possible. But I do believe that to use grappling skill to "anti-striking" is possible. The reason is simple. The moment that a "clinch" is established, the moment that the striking game is over and the grappling game starts.

In the following picture, it's easy to see that the striking is no longer effective. Whoever can use leg skill to take the other down, the ground game will start.

dead_lock1.jpg
 
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Jake104

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The never ending debate rages on. For me striking "taste great" and grappling is "less filling". That's why I like both.

If I can break an arm while dropping elbows, I'm completely satisfied.
 
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