I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[Kung Fu Wang]

This short clip proves that even with gloves on, take down can be effective after a proper clinch has been established.

 

[Jake104]

This short clip proves that even with gloves on, take down can be effective after a proper clinch has been established.

That's great for the ring. Problem is in the real world now your grappling on the ground and may be vulnerable to outside attack from his friends, buddies, or maybe even random guy walking by that wants to kick somebody in the head?. In the street I want to use the ground as a weapon to end the fight. I want to slam there face on the concrete. Its still a "take-down" but with a different intent.

Or

What if he had a knife and you take him down like that? You may not even know you're stabbed till it's to late. SWIM always carries at least a knife.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

- in the real world now your grappling on the ground and may be vulnerable to outside attack from his friends, buddies, or maybe even random guy walking by that wants to kick somebody in the head?.

Agree!

- In the street I want to use the ground as a weapon to end the fight. I want to slam there face on the concrete. Its still a "take-down" but with a different intent.

Agree!

- What if he had a knife and you take him down like that? You may not even know you're stabbed till it's to late. SWIM always carries at least a knife.

Agree!

No argument from me. Just to add one more thing, in street fight, "mobility" is very important. Not only you may have to run away from "flying bullets",

you may also have to run away from "fat cops chasing" (or may be in the reverse order).

 

[JowGaWolf]

he question is, can you always prevent "clinch" and "ground"?

We can prevent most clinches and most attempts to take us to the ground. If someone does take us to the ground, the goal is to escape and get off the ground as quickly as possible. The goal isn't to win the fight wrestling. I spar with people who shoot and try to do take downs. I've never been taken down with the exception of one trip which I quickly got back up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

get off the ground as quickly as possible.

Sometime it's not that easy to get back up. Many throws can be used to set up "side mount".

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sometime it's not that easy to get back up. Many throws can be used to set up "side mount".

That's true it's not always easy to get back up but for our style that's the rule. Logically speaking if my grappling skills are less than my opponent then staying on the ground is a definite way to lose. Even though we have some ground techniques we aren't wrestlers.

The type of clinch that's in the video is a NO, NO for us, if we ever found ourselves in that type of clinch then we did something wrong. We understand that it's impossible to get out of every clinch, so we work hard in not getting into one in the first place.

 

[Steve]

We can prevent most clinches and most attempts to take us to the ground. If someone does take us to the ground, the goal is to escape and get off the ground as quickly as possible. The goal isn't to win the fight wrestling. I spar with people who shoot and try to do take downs. I've never been taken down with the exception of one trip which I quickly got back up.

Who's 'we?" How do you know you can prevent a clinch and most takedowns? How many times have you used your technique in a self defense situation to avoid the clinch or takedown? when you say 'we' are you referring to you the jow ga collective? Even if someone who trains jow ga can effectively thwart a competent takedown attempt, doesn't mean you can do it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I spar with people who shoot and try to do take downs. I've never been taken down with the exception of one trip which I quickly got back up.

If you've only ever been taken down once, then you aren't spending enough time sparring with good grapplers.

This has nothing to do with whether you want to spend time fighting on the ground. You don't want to get punched in the face either, but if you told me that you had never been hit in sparring except for a glancing blow one time, I'd say that you haven't been sparring with enough good strikers.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you've only ever been taken down once, then you aren't spending enough time sparring with good grapplers.

I've only been taken down once because I understand the limitations of grappling and how to stay within those limitations. I understand what makes grappling works and what is needed to make it work. Punching and kicking is different because it only requires that the fist or kick reaches the opponent. It can be done even when in clinches. Grapplers are more limited. They can't wrestle or take you to the ground for the ground game unless they grab you. If you don't think that this is true then, try to grapple without grabbing. Let me know how that works.

 

[drop bear]

That's true it's not always easy to get back up but for our style that's the rule. Logically speaking if my grappling skills are less than my opponent then staying on the ground is a definite way to lose. Even though we have some ground techniques we aren't wrestlers.

The type of clinch that's in the video is a NO, NO for us, if we ever found ourselves in that type of clinch then we did something wrong. We understand that it's impossible to get out of every clinch, so we work hard in not getting into one in the first place.

Actually being under side control is not a style thing.

Everybody wants out from there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Who's 'we?" How do you know you can prevent a clinch and most takedowns? How many times have you used your technique in a self defense situation to avoid the clinch or takedown? when you say 'we' are you referring to you the jow ga collective? Even if someone who trains jow ga can effectively thwart a competent takedown attempt, doesn't mean you can do it.

When I say we, I'm referring to what is taught in most Jow Ga schools (but mainly in the one I go to) and the fact that many of our forms has techniques that specifically addresses attacks that involve grabbing. I've use my techniques every time I spar against someone do defend against them from grabbing me or at least having a grab that lasts long enough for them to pull me in. As far as the success that other Jow Ga students have with preventing the take down, that's something that I can't control. Each fighter is going to be different and have different success rates from 0% - 100%

I'm not saying that Jow Ga is the best Anti Grappling style ever. I'm just saying that we train hard with it mainly because there is a lot in our style that addresses the takedowns. These techniques are everywhere in our forms and I can't think of one form that doesn't have it. According to the story that the sifus hand down, the founder of the style didn't like people grabbing him.

In a real life self-defense situation. I would have no problem with attacking the groin or digging my fingers into the eyes of my attacker if that allows me to get off the ground. Biting is fair game as well. If I can grab and break a finger then that's find too. Whatever it takes to be free of the grab.

 

[Steve]

So. Then. Just the mythology of your style. Like when bjj guys say they can compete in Mma without cross training.
Your position represents just another example of anti grappling at its finest.

I'm sure the wc anti grapplers train hard too. Doesn't mean any if it will work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hanzou]

Sometime it's not that easy to get back up. Many throws can be used to set up "side mount".

Agreed. I often get a chuckle from listening to people who say that their ground training amounts to getting back up once in a blue moon. Meanwhile, a grappler's entire training revolves around keeping you on the ground once they put you there. Their goal is to make sure you never get up again.

Whether that's a Judoka throwing you so hard to the concrete that you're unable to get back up, or a wrestler taking you down and pinning you, or a submission grappler taking you down and snapping your leg, there's a very remote chance that you're going to be able to hop up to continue the fight unless you're properly trained.

 

[Hanzou]

That's great for the ring. Problem is in the real world now your grappling on the ground and may be vulnerable to outside attack from his friends, buddies, or maybe even random guy walking by that wants to kick somebody in the head?

And what if your friends are there to prevent his buddies from jumping in, or preventing you from getting kicked in the head by a random drunk person?

You do also understand that there's quite a few grappling positions that allow you to disengage quickly in case some other jackass decides to jump in right? Ever hear of knee on belly? How about knee on sternum?

In the street I want to use the ground as a weapon to end the fight. I want to slam there face on the concrete. Its still a "take-down" but with a different intent.

So who's likely to win that battle? The grappler or the non-grappler?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've only been taken down once because I understand the limitations of grappling and how to stay within those limitations. I understand what makes grappling works and what is needed to make it work.

I can guarantee that experienced MMA fighters, especially those with a grappling background, understand the limitations of grappling at a much deeper level than you do - yet they still get taken down.

Punching and kicking is different because it only requires that the fist or kick reaches the opponent. It can be done even when in clinches. Grapplers are more limited. They can't wrestle or take you to the ground for the ground game unless they grab you.

Punching and kicking, just like grappling, depends on having the correct range. Too far away and you can't punch, kick, or grapple. Too close in and your punches and kicks lose effectiveness.

One advantage to grappling is that closing the distance in a fight is easier than backpedaling. Even if you have the skill and open space to backpedal, it's very hard to strike effectively while moving backwards. (It can be done, but it's an advanced skill and not reliable.)

In a real life self-defense situation. I would have no problem with attacking the groin or digging my fingers into the eyes of my attacker if that allows me to get off the ground. Biting is fair game as well. If I can grab and break a finger then that's find too. Whatever it takes to be free of the grab.

Well, yeah. Speaking as a grappler, I also would have no problem with attacking the groin or eyes or fingers (or even biting) in a real self-defense situation if the circumstances required it. I've practiced all those things in a grappling context. As useful as those tactics can be, none of them offers any sort of guarantee of neutralizing a grab or a dominant position on the ground.

 

[geezer]

I can guarantee that experienced MMA fighters, especially those with a grappling background, understand the limitations of grappling at a much deeper level than you do - yet they still get taken down.

Tony, don't cloud the issue with the facts. His mind is made up!

Some posters here seem to think that only their art --whatever it is-- has all the answers. There are both a few grapplers and strikers in this group. The rest of us also appreciate what the other arts, at their best, have to offer (as well as loving what we do). You and I are in this latter group. And from what I've seen the evidence supports this perspective.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The type of clinch that's in the video is a NO, NO for us, if we ever found ourselves in that type of clinch then we did something wrong. We understand that it's impossible to get out of every clinch, so we work hard in not getting into one in the first place.

Some throws does not require any "clinch".

When you move one leg behind your opponent's "both" legs, with your upper body rotation, you can take your opponent down without any "clinch".

When you obtains your opponent's leading leg, if you just hook on his back standing leg, he will be down. You don't need "clinch" on this either.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One advantage to grappling is that closing the distance in a fight is easier than backpedaling.

Agree!

When you shoot single leg at your opponent, he may step back, lead you into the emptiness, and kiss the ground. When your opponent comes in and punches you, he is doing the "closing the distance" for you. His leading leg will be exactly where you can reach.

There is a big difference between:

- When you try to grab your opponent's leg, he steps back, vs.
- When your opponent steps in, you grab his leg.

 

[Phobius]

Am I the only one that seems to think of it like this.

If I want to stand up against a fighter that wants to stick me to the ground the only way to expect to get up is by training more than my opponent ever done in a scenario where people keep me down while I try to stand.

Secondly if they train more on keeping me down than I do trying to get up from ground, then my hope is that I have trained longer on sticking to ground than him.

If he is better than me in all those scenarios then I train harder in not following any rules in trying to get my opponent to disengage than he ever has defending against such opponent.

When all that fails well then I train harder than my opponent in taking a beating and hope somehow I can find an opening and get away anyways.

And so on...

The curse of WC, even if we understand that nothing is gained without practise we start trying to practise getting up straight away from ground scenario. Succeeding in doing this we failed the most important lesson. Our opponent needs to first understand and desire to keep us on the ground before we can learn together with them how to best get up.

Training with another WC guy means non are comfortable and therefore the practise becomes irratic and odd. This is when crazy ideas may be born which will work for the trained scenario of two fighters which neither want to stay on ground. Meaning BJJ will laugh against any anti grappling attempts because it is only meant to work when both fight to get up or away before the other.

Same is the curse for other arts as well, even BJJ. Train all day in takedown against opponent that want to fall and you would fail just as bad. Same goes as trying to do takedowns against an opponent that does not know how to fight standing up. A scenario that is easier since most people have some basic albeit somewhat flawed understanding of punching.

 

[Hanzou]

Am I the only one that seems to think of it like this.

If I want to stand up against a fighter that wants to stick me to the ground the only way to expect to get up is by training more than my opponent ever done in a scenario where people keep me down while I try to stand.

Secondly if they train more on keeping me down than I do trying to get up from ground, then my hope is that I have trained longer on sticking to ground than him.

If he is better than me in all those scenarios then I train harder in not following any rules in trying to get my opponent to disengage than he ever has defending against such opponent.

When all that fails well then I train harder than my opponent in taking a beating and hope somehow I can find an opening and get away anyways.

And so on...

The curse of WC, even if we understand that nothing is gained without practise we start trying to practise getting up straight away from ground scenario. Succeeding in doing this we failed the most important lesson. Our opponent needs to first understand and desire to keep us on the ground before we can learn together with them how to best get up.

Training with another WC guy means non are comfortable and therefore the practise becomes irratic and odd. This is when crazy ideas may be born which will work for the trained scenario of two fighters which neither want to stay on ground. Meaning BJJ will laugh against any anti grappling attempts because it is only meant to work when both fight to get up or away before the other.

Same is the curse for other arts as well, even BJJ. Train all day in takedown against opponent that want to fall and you would fail just as bad. Same goes as trying to do takedowns against an opponent that does not know how to fight standing up. A scenario that is easier since most people have some basic albeit somewhat flawed understanding of punching.

The simple reality is that if you're concerned about fighting against an expert grappler, go learn how to grapple. If you're concerned about getting knocked out by a striker, go learn how to strike. If you want to learn how to throw someone to the ground, go learn how to do it. If you want to learn how to fight with weapons, go learn how to fight with weapons.

We don't live in a time of secrets and hidden styles anymore. If your style isn't providing something that you feel that you desperately need, seek it out elsewhere from experts in the field. Making up a bunch of BS and claiming that it can beat the best is dangerous and counterproductive.