I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,286
Reaction score
3,462
Location
Phoenix, AZ
The striking art is like to make love without the final finish. What kind of satisfaction can you get out of it?

To continue with that analogy, Training striking on a heavy bag, is like making love to one of these:

upload_2015-6-20_11-43-41.png
 

ShotoNoob

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
1,259
Reaction score
72
To continue with that analogy, Training striking on a heavy bag, is like making love to one of these:

View attachment 19342
|
Well now I don't feel so bad about much of the criticisms leveled @ me. Given my total absence of experience where one such as you brings to the table...:eek::eek::eek:
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,770
Reaction score
1,330
Why "anti-throw/takedow" is ignored here? The anti-groundfight is not the same as anti-throw/takedown. Do anti-grappling guys only care about dealing with BJJ guys and don't care much about dealing with wrestlers or Judo guys?

Don't forget, we Bjj guys throw just like the Judo and Wrestler guys. ;)
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,770
Reaction score
1,330
Which can happen.

Ok the theory is your in guard and you have more submissions than the other guy. So the guard is dominant. But with striking the guy in guard does not have to bother with submissions because he can just stack and beat on you. Or lay and pray.

Lay and pray works in the strikers favor from on top. Because if he is not actively defending a sub he can hit. And lots of really hard to defend or capitalise hits like holding the face and just sliding the elbow.

What's the skill level of my opponent in this theory? Am I dealing with a highly skilled grappler, or just some clown in the street?

Thing is, lay and pray and stacking only works on a skilled Bjj player if you're also a highly skilled grappler with an amazing top game and sub defense. Bjj is literally designed to deal with that sort of thing with its guard sweeps and it's various guard chokes and locks. Further, Bjj players should be getting trained to deal with strikes while in guard. I was always trained that way because my academy(ies) were always old school Gracie academies.

The problem is that you're looking at this through the prism of someone who is trained to directly counter a highly skilled guard. The vast majority of people have absolutely no idea how to do that. And those that do are almost always equivalent to purple to black belt Bjj practitioners themselves.

If you need any evidence of this, just view that Krav Maga vid I posted where the guy opens himself up to numerous submissions and sweeps without even realizing it. He has no idea how the guard works at all, yet he made a video on how to stop it.

So yeah, if I'm dealing with a MMA guy who is bigger, stronger, and just as skilled as I am, I'm in a lot of trouble. If I'm dealing with that Krav Maga guy, I'll be just fine.
 
Last edited:

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,056
Reaction score
7,725
What's the skill level of my opponent in this theory? Am I dealing with a highly skilled grappler, or just some clown in the street?

Thing is, lay and pray and stacking only works on a skilled Bjj player if you're also a highly skilled grappler with an amazing top game and sub defense. Bjj is literally designed to deal with that sort of thing with its guard sweeps and it's various guard chokes and locks. Further, Bjj players should be getting trained to deal with strikes while in guard. I was always trained that way because my academy(ies) were always old school Gracie academies.

The problem is that you're looking at this through the prism of someone who is trained to directly counter a highly skilled guard. The vast majority of people have absolutely no idea how to do that. And those that do are almost always equivalent to purple to black belt Bjj practitioners themselves.

If you need any evidence of this, just view that Krav Maga vid I posted where the guy opens himself up to numerous submissions and sweeps without even realizing it. He has no idea how the guard works at all, yet he made a video on how to stop it.

So yeah, if I'm dealing with a MMA guy who is bigger, stronger, and just as skilled as I am, I'm in a lot of trouble. If I'm dealing with that Krav Maga guy, I'll be just fine.

If I can handle the skilled guy. The unskilled guy will handle himself.

But I think I mentioned that for the most part the anti grappler does not have the depth of knowledge that a bjj guy has. He is running very lean on techniques when it comes to ground work. So the skill level is always a lot closer than a dedicated bjjer.
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
755
Why "anti-throw/takedow" is ignored here? The anti-groundfight is not the same as anti-throw/takedown. Do anti-grappling guys only care about dealing with BJJ guys and don't care much about dealing with wrestlers or Judo guys?


It's not ignored. I was taught this aspect some 20 years ago. We were taught to deal with shoulder throws, hip throws, waist clenches.....
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
755
Everything we were taught was based on Wing Tsun principles and body mechanics.To try and explain it in written form would take too long. I will try to find an example.
 

Vajramusti

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
312
Everything we were taught was based on Wing Tsun principles and body mechanics.To try and explain it in written form would take too long. I will try to find an example.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me, good wing chun body dynamics and wing chun principles carries me far. My late good Alaskan Malamute could handle a great dane when standing on two feet and didn't have to become a fish in order to swim
in rivers and lakes.

And honor to Ip man for his legacy on Father's day.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,448
Reaction score
4,199
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
We were taught to deal with shoulder throws, hip throws, waist clenches.....
IMO, the most effective counters are:

1. shoulder throw - "(Zai) helmet removing",
2. hip throw - "撏(Beng) - elbow cracking",
3. waist clenches - "(Mo) - eyebrow wiping".

Here is the "(Zai) helmet removing". In order to do this properly, the line between your feet and the line between your opponent's feet should be in a 90 degree angle.

helmet_remove.jpg


Everything we were taught was based on Wing Tsun principles and body mechanics.To try and explain it in written form would take too long. I will try to find an example.

Since this is an "anti-grappling" thread, it may be interested to discuss the WC solutions for these.
 
Last edited:

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
755
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me, good wing chun body dynamics and wing chun principles carries me far.

I agree. An attack, whether it be striking or grappling of some sort, is simply placing some form of pressure on the body.
If WC teaches anything, it's dealing with pressures placed on the body.
 

Vajramusti

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
312
IMO, the most effective counters are:

1. shoulder throw - "(Zai) helmet removing",
2. hip throw - "撏(Beng) - elbow cracking",
3. waist clenches - "(Mo) - eyebrow wiping".

Here is the "(Zai) helmet removing". In order to do this properly, the line between your feet and the line between your opponent's feet should be in a 90 degree angle.
---------------------------------------------------------
I operate from my wing chun stance and footwork-and don't depend on fixed techniques with fixed names.
Can do 1, 2 or 3 with wing chun dynamics
helmet_remove.jpg




Since this is an "anti-grappling" thread, it may be interested to discuss the WC solutions for these.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,448
Reaction score
4,199
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
For anti-grappling, there is no single master key that can open all locks. You have to "find the right key to open the right lock". Of course you can use hammer to smash on a lock and open it. It may take more force than you really need. With the right key, you can open your lock with very little effort. In other words, the "anti-grappling" will require a set of "special skills" that you need to train no matter what style that you may come from.

For example, when your opponent applies "leg lift (Uchi Mata)" on you, the only best counter is to "ride on". You try to

- borrow your opponent's lifting force,
- jump on his back, and
- use your weight to crash him all the way down onto the ground.

Since this "ride on" skill will require a lot of training (otherwise you won't be able to respond to your opponent's throw on time), there is no "short cut" for "anti-grappling".

leg_lift.jpg
 
Last edited:

Jake104

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
680
Reaction score
244
Location
Gilbert AZ
For anti-grappling, there is no single master key that can open all locks. You have to "find the right key to open the right lock". Of course you can use hammer to smash on a lock and open it. It may take more force than you really need. With the right key, you can open your lock with very little effort. In other words, the "anti-grappling" will require a set of "special skills" that you need to train no matter what style that you may come from.

For example, when your opponent applies "leg lift (Uchi Mata)" on you, the only best counter is to "ride on". You try to

- borrow your opponent's lifting force,
- jump on his back, and
- use your weight to crash him all the way down onto the ground.

Since this "ride on" skill will require a lot of training (otherwise you won't be able to respond to your opponent's throw on time), there is no "short cut" for "anti-grappling".

leg_lift.jpg
Good post! The real skill is learning how to recognize and react before the throw, takedown or choke gets to the point of no return. Obviously it's easier said than done. There are counter techniques that work or it can be as simple as having really good timing and sensitivity. Both go hand and hand and both require quite a bit of training. You ask for the WC point of view? That's mine. Simple.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,056
Reaction score
7,725
Good post! The real skill is learning how to recognize and react before the throw, takedown or choke gets to the point of no return. Obviously it's easier said than done. There are counter techniques that work or it can be as simple as having really good timing and sensitivity. Both go hand and hand and both require quite a bit of training. You ask for the WC point of view? That's mine. Simple.

Somewhere in this thread I did mention ways to give yourself a bit more time.

That is part of the equation. Otherwise you have to always be significantly better than the guy you are fighting. Which is not always possible.
 

Jake104

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
680
Reaction score
244
Location
Gilbert AZ
Somewhere in this thread I did mention ways to give yourself a bit more time.

That is part of the equation. Otherwise you have to always be significantly better than the guy you are fighting. Which is not always possible.
I agree. It's all about being a step or two ahead of the opponent. There are tricks or safeguards to always be.
 
Top