If we took away the philosophical or spiritual roots of a combat art... Wouldn't it actually end up being BETTER?

Zombocalypse

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I mean look at Judo. Who cares what Dr Kano taught about morality and gentleness? Just use Judo to hurt enemies and to defend yourself. At the end of the day, it is a self-defense system and an Olympic Sport designed for violent confrontations and athletic exhibitions.

I spent a good number of years playing Japanese roleplaying games, and a common theme on those games is this concept of a weaponless fist fighting character who is often labeled as a "monk". But look around you. That's not how it works in reality. Yi Long is the only actual Shaolin monk to ever reach a high level in competitive fighting and even then, he fights just like another violent kickboxer.

For me, the way I see it, my personal philosophy in martial arts is that all apes, humans included, must learn healthy ways to express aggression. In an age of conquest, this would have been appropriate through militaristic adventures. But we don't live in that age anymore. Instead, our heroes in this modern age are hollywood actors and athletes, so we make do with what we have. Instead of rallying our own troops for a literal war, we instead channel those ugly emotions through athletic pursuits. Combat is just another sport for me. There should be nothing spiritual about it. It's just another tool, like how Zen Meditation can help boost your mental faculties even if you are actually a Christian.

Please discuss!
 
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Zombocalypse

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Better for what? Everyone has different goals for martial arts, so that determines what's better. It's why some arts don't have that spiritual access, and others do.

A better tool to destroy enemies. That's putting it mildly. In a sports sense, it's more about which combat system will give you the most wins in sanctioned competitions. Perhaps it is a relic of the past, but back in the days, just like how lifters and bodybuilders preached about their super amazing training systems, martial artists who competed in combat sports represented their schools. American Top Team, Miletich Camp, Shoot fighting, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, you name it. At the end of the day, nobody cares what religion your combat system follows. It's just another sport, and the only thing that matters is the last man standing. The winner.

Martial arts are exactly that. Martial. That's all they are. If someone wanted to pursue spirituality, there are better avenues for that.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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A better tool to destroy enemies. That's putting it mildly. In a sports sense, it's more about which combat system will give you the most wins in sanctioned competitions. Perhaps it is a relic of the past, but back in the days, just like how lifters and bodybuilders preached about their super amazing training systems, martial artists who competed in combat sports represented their schools. American Top Team, Miletich Camp, Shoot fighting, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, you name it. At the end of the day, nobody cares what religion your combat system follows. It's just another sport, and the only thing that matters is the last man standing. The winner.

Martial arts are exactly that. Martial. That's all they are. If someone wanted to pursue spirituality, there are better avenues for that.
Then yes, if your goal is to have a tool to destroy an enemy, and only that, you do not need to worry about the spiritual aspects in some martial arts. You can focus on those systems that do not do it, of which there are many. I'm not exactly sure what you are looking to discuss here.
 

drop bear

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A better tool to destroy enemies. That's putting it mildly. In a sports sense, it's more about which combat system will give you the most wins in sanctioned competitions. Perhaps it is a relic of the past, but back in the days, just like how lifters and bodybuilders preached about their super amazing training systems, martial artists who competed in combat sports represented their schools. American Top Team, Miletich Camp, Shoot fighting, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, you name it. At the end of the day, nobody cares what religion your combat system follows. It's just another sport, and the only thing that matters is the last man standing. The winner.

Martial arts are exactly that. Martial. That's all they are. If someone wanted to pursue spirituality, there are better avenues for that.

What philosophy are you applying?

Because there are philosophies that are quite martial.

Stoicism and Nietzsche are two.

And according to them. That is how you achieve spirituality.
 
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Zombocalypse

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What philosophy are you applying?

Because there are philosophies that are quite martial.

Stoicism and Nietzsche are two.

And according to them. That is how you achieve spirituality.

With how to treat others and my sense of destiny, I'm a Christian. With everything else, I'm an evolutionary psychologist. This includes martial arts.
 

Jared Traveler

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I mean look at Judo. Who cares what Dr Kano taught about morality and gentleness? Just use Judo to hurt enemies and to defend yourself. At the end of the day, it is a self-defense system and an Olympic Sport designed for violent confrontations and athletic exhibitions.

I spent a good number of years playing Japanese roleplaying games, and a common theme on those games is this concept of a weaponless fist fighting character who is often labeled as a "monk". But look around you. That's not how it works in reality. Yi Long is the only actual Shaolin monk to ever reach a high level in competitive fighting and even then, he fights just like another violent kickboxer.

For me, the way I see it, my personal philosophy in martial arts is that all apes, humans included, must learn healthy ways to express aggression. In an age of conquest, this would have been appropriate through militaristic adventures. But we don't live in that age anymore. Instead, our heroes in this modern age are hollywood actors and athletes, so we make do with what we have. Instead of rallying our own troops for a literal war, we instead channel those ugly emotions through athletic pursuits. Combat is just another sport for me. There should be nothing spiritual about it. It's just another tool, like how Zen Meditation can help boost your mental faculties even if you are actually a Christian.

Please discuss!
First off exactly none of my heroes are Hollywood actors!! Real heros are probably closer than you think, you just need to identify them and hopefully they can become your mentors.

You are correct in that roleplay games are not accurate representations of self-defense or martial combat. You are also right in my opinion that Dr. Kano corrupted the martial arts by taking the focus off of combat. However Dr. Kano did make several important contributions to the effective application of force in combat or self-defense. Kano is a double edged figure regarding his contributions to martial arts.

With that said, I agree that the martial arts is not a spiritual path for me. With that said, if you plan on defending yourself efficiently you better deep dive on spiritual and moral beliefs and decision making prior to the event. Moral decision making is critical to effective use of force. A casual approach or focus on morality is a recipe for hesitation or regret when it comes to killing.
 

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Not necessarily so.
  • The "respect the tap" philosophy in grappling makes everyone better as people can train in a safe environment.
  • Among other things, the ethics of judo help ensure that the members of the school don't get arrested and/or killed due to anti-social behaviour.
  • Many schools of traditional combatives have spiritual elements/rituals designed to help adepts cope with PTSD.
  • Sports, including martial arts, have been used for years as a crime prevention tool by transmitting values and skills to young people.
  • The spiritual/philosophical aspects of an art can also underpin the technical aspects. Going in with the idea of muscling your way through -as opposed to a more relaxed and flexible mindset- will make you easy to beat against any half-decent grappler.
You don't have to adopt a new religion or spirituality to practice martial arts, but taking away the philosophical or spiritual roots of an art would not necessarily make it better.
 
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Zombocalypse

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Could you please elaborate?

Okay...

You put a hundred men in a prison... I don't know, maybe they were falsely accused of a crime or maybe they are 100% psychopaths. It doesn't matter. You have a hundred of them in a prison.

One day, the head warden visits them in their lunch. He says, "Alright, you maggots! I'll give you a chance to earn not just your freedom, but also $10,000 and a guaranteed job placement as a roofer or some ****. I am bound by law to fulfill that promise. But under one condition... At the sound of my whistle, you motherfuckers have to go on a royal rumble and kill each other. The last man standing will be the only one to get his freedom. Now get ready."

Well then, the winner of that ordeal will be the one I'll listen to about martial arts. It's the reasoning as to why Krav Maga works. Those Jewish guys had to survive Nazi thugs in their area, and then Krav Maga was born. No spiritual woowoo ****, no bro-science, no fake black belts. It's real martial arts tempered and battle-tested in hostile environments.

Do Siberian tigers and safari lions take seminars on self-defense? No. They fight with instinct. Humans are the same. Fighting and all forms of combat have existed before the dawn of modern MMA. It's in our DNA to fight. We use what nature has given us. Instinct, strength, speed, skill... Whatever. I will always prefer to listen to the advice of a battle-hardened thug than some cozy businessman who overpaid some state-of-the-art Aikido coach from his white collar neighborhood.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Okay...

You put a hundred men in a prison... I don't know, maybe they were falsely accused of a crime or maybe they are 100% psychopaths. It doesn't matter. You have a hundred of them in a prison.

One day, the head warden visits them in their lunch. He says, "Alright, you maggots! I'll give you a chance to earn not just your freedom, but also $10,000 and a guaranteed job placement as a roofer or some ****. I am bound by law to fulfill that promise. But under one condition... At the sound of my whistle, you motherfuckers have to go on a royal rumble and kill each other. The last man standing will be the only one to get his freedom. Now get ready."

Well then, the winner of that ordeal will be the one I'll listen to about martial arts. It's the reasoning as to why Krav Maga works. Those Jewish guys had to survive Nazi thugs in their area, and then Krav Maga was born. No spiritual woowoo ****, no bro-science, no fake black belts. It's real martial arts tempered and battle-tested in hostile environments.

Do Siberian tigers and safari lions take seminars on self-defense? No. They fight with instinct. Humans are the same. Fighting and all forms of combat have existed before the dawn of modern MMA. It's in our DNA to fight. We use what nature has given us. Instinct, strength, speed, skill... Whatever. I will always prefer to listen to the advice of a battle-hardened thug than some cozy businessman who overpaid some state-of-the-art Aikido coach from his white collar neighborhood.
So you mean you're a pseudo-evolutionary psychologist. Got it. Or probably a bit more accurately, you're trying to transplant evolutionary biology to martial arts.
 

Jared Traveler

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Okay...

You put a hundred men in a prison... I don't know, maybe they were falsely accused of a crime or maybe they are 100% psychopaths. It doesn't matter. You have a hundred of them in a prison.

One day, the head warden visits them in their lunch. He says, "Alright, you maggots! I'll give you a chance to earn not just your freedom, but also $10,000 and a guaranteed job placement as a roofer or some ****. I am bound by law to fulfill that promise. But under one condition... At the sound of my whistle, you motherfuckers have to go on a royal rumble and kill each other. The last man standing will be the only one to get his freedom. Now get ready."

Well then, the winner of that ordeal will be the one I'll listen to about martial arts. It's the reasoning as to why Krav Maga works. Those Jewish guys had to survive Nazi thugs in their area, and then Krav Maga was born. No spiritual woowoo ****, no bro-science, no fake black belts. It's real martial arts tempered and battle-tested in hostile environments.

Do Siberian tigers and safari lions take seminars on self-defense? No. They fight with instinct. Humans are the same. Fighting and all forms of combat have existed before the dawn of modern MMA. It's in our DNA to fight. We use what nature has given us. Instinct, strength, speed, skill... Whatever. I will always prefer to listen to the advice of a battle-hardened thug than some cozy businessman who overpaid some state-of-the-art Aikido coach from his white collar neighborhood.
I am sorry but believing Krav Maga is the secret to Israeli battlefield success is like suggesting the 1911 handgun won WWII because American troops carried it. A good friend of mine was IDF intelligence, he thinks the Krav he learned in the military was crap and what is taught outside of the IDF is worse.
 
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Zombocalypse

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So you mean you're a pseudo-evolutionary psychologist. Got it. Or probably a bit more accurately, you're trying to transplant evolutionary biology to martial arts.

My greatest passion in life is philosophy. Even my powerlifting takes a back burner to my development as a philosopher. Pseudo-science, pseudo-martial artist, pseudo-psychologist... Whatever man. As long as I don't get questioned about my philosopher ethos, I'd be at peace.

To argue further, there's nothing wrong with transplanting evolutionary biology to martial arts. Living creatures are the reason martial arts exist in the first place.
 
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Zombocalypse

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I am sorry but believing Krav Maga is the secret to Israeli battlefield success is like suggesting the 1911 handgun won WWII because American troops carried it. A good friend of mine was IDF intelligence, he thinks the Krav he learned in the military was crap and what is taught outside of the IDF is worse.

Sir, I never made the assertion that Krav Maga is the secret to Israeli battlefield success. I'm only talking about Jewish thugs surviving against Nazi thugs.

If you have ten battle-hardened thugs in some street here in Idaho where I live, and they are battle-hardened in the sense that they have been picking on lone nerds their entire lives, they are not good martial artists. Grand scale war has more to do with competent strategy and strength in numbers. I am only talking about individual prowess, and I do think, based on my limited knowledge, that Krav Maga teaches exactly that.

What kind of military officer would run a seminar teaching war strategies? That won't sell and it'll be boring as hell. Not to mention useless.

From what I've read in the past, Muay Thai itself was also created out of that kind of thing. A little kid was constantly beaten up by a grown man in the dark until he was forced to fight despite that ungodly disadvantage. Don't all good martial arts have a violent, alpha-dominated history? Who knows? Maybe I'll make it big in the Olympics, become a Judo master, and invent my own Judo-inspired martial art. The Asian RPG Hulk combat style...
 

punisher73

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I think you have a misunderstanding on the role of religion and martial arts. The vast majority of them don't have anything religious as part of their foundation and it was cultural stuff added later.

For example, in 1908 Itosu wrote, "Karate did not develop from Buddhism or Confucianism. In the past the Shorin-ryu school and the Shorei-ryu school were brought to Okinawa from China . Both of these schools have strong points and I therefore list them below just as they are without embellishment."

Aikido WAS started and founded as a religious martial art. This art is probably the exception and not the norm in regards to the role of religion and martial arts.

To use your example, the winner of the 100-man prison rumble. What kind of guy was he? Moving forward, when you put him back into society how should he act? THIS is why martial arts incorporated philosophy and sometimes religious teachings into their art. They didn't want thugs/bullies using their knowledge in the wrong manner. They wanted to instill and teach an ethical code on WHEN to use your skills.

Here is the big key though. The skills taught didn't change at all. They were the same, so your premise that martial arts would be "better" if there wasn't that religious component is flawed. Martial arts became less effective when the teachers/leaders of those martial art styles decided to change the focus from just combat/fighting into other ways like character development etc.
 
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Zombocalypse

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I think you have a misunderstanding on the role of religion and martial arts. The vast majority of them don't have anything religious as part of their foundation and it was cultural stuff added later.

For example, in 1908 Itosu wrote, "Karate did not develop from Buddhism or Confucianism. In the past the Shorin-ryu school and the Shorei-ryu school were brought to Okinawa from China . Both of these schools have strong points and I therefore list them below just as they are without embellishment."

Aikido WAS started and founded as a religious martial art. This art is probably the exception and not the norm in regards to the role of religion and martial arts.

To use your example, the winner of the 100-man prison rumble. What kind of guy was he? Moving forward, when you put him back into society how should he act? THIS is why martial arts incorporated philosophy and sometimes religious teachings into their art. They didn't want thugs/bullies using their knowledge in the wrong manner. They wanted to instill and teach an ethical code on WHEN to use your skills.

Here is the big key though. The skills taught didn't change at all. They were the same, so your premise that martial arts would be "better" if there wasn't that religious component is flawed. Martial arts became less effective when the teachers/leaders of those martial art styles decided to change the focus from just combat/fighting into other ways like character development etc.

A lot to unpack here but I'll just say this.

Look, I spent my middle school years in a very uptight Catholic school. I also spent my elementary school years in a slightly gang-infested school. I spent high school here in America, full of more normal kids. On all those early pre-college years, there were all sorts of kids who came and went. There were bullies who were good athletes and there were goody-two-shoes who were good athletes. There were bullies who believed in Christ and there were goody-two-shoes who believed in Christ.

If you were an athletic coach who teaches wrestling, would you really care how those kids are? Maybe they're jerks, maybe they're kind. Who the hell cares? Distinct personalities will always surface. As a coach, the only question you should have is whether or not they are law-abiding and civil. You are a wrestling coach, not a moral teacher. You're there to teach these ambitious kids how to wrestle. Who the hell cares what they do with those skills you teach them? It's their life. Screw 'em.

The issue of having ethical codes or the restraint to not be violent is an individual thing. It's not something that politicians or religious leaders can enforce. The idea that martial arts schools are there to teach ancient Chinese moral codes, in my opinion, is ridiculously laughable. Let people be people. You are there to provide a service, not preach about the Gospel.

Look at Judo. It's a gentle art, supposedly, but many high level MMA fighters have effectively used it to destroy their opponents in the octagon.
 

punisher73

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A lot to unpack here but I'll just say this.

Look, I spent my middle school years in a very uptight Catholic school. I also spent my elementary school years in a slightly gang-infested school. I spent high school here in America, full of more normal kids. On all those early pre-college years, there were all sorts of kids who came and went. There were bullies who were good athletes and there were goody-two-shoes who were good athletes. There were bullies who believed in Christ and there were goody-two-shoes who believed in Christ.

If you were an athletic coach who teaches wrestling, would you really care how those kids are? Maybe they're jerks, maybe they're kind. Who the hell cares? Distinct personalities will always surface. As a coach, the only question you should have is whether or not they are law-abiding and civil. You are a wrestling coach, not a moral teacher. You're there to teach these ambitious kids how to wrestle. Who the hell cares what they do with those skills you teach them? It's their life. Screw 'em.

The issue of having ethical codes or the restraint to not be violent is an individual thing. It's not something that politicians or religious leaders can enforce. The idea that martial arts schools are there to teach ancient Chinese moral codes, in my opinion, is ridiculously laughable. Let people be people. You are there to provide a service, not preach about the Gospel.

Look at Judo. It's a gentle art, supposedly, but many high level MMA fighters have effectively used it to destroy their opponents in the octagon.

All true. Now, look at it through the cultural eyes of those arts.

What would happen if as the high school wrestling coach you were criminally responsible if one of your wrestlers got into a fight and hurt someone? If you risked criminal prosecution or losing everything in a civil lawsuit, do you think that you would change your vetting process on who you accepted as a student? Your viewpoint is VERY American and ignores the culture that those arts came from.

The teachers of those arts had a HUGE responsibility for their students and what they did.

Also, you have failed to show that martial arts are less effective if they teach morals/ethics than arts that don't teach them. Also, you have failed to show that all schools teach this as part of their curriculum in a particular art (we can all agree on Aikido as the exception) even if it was taught that way at one time.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I mean look at Judo. Who cares what Dr Kano taught about morality and gentleness? Just use Judo to hurt enemies and to defend yourself. At the end of the day, it is a self-defense system and an Olympic Sport designed for violent confrontations and athletic exhibitions.

I spent a good number of years playing Japanese roleplaying games, and a common theme on those games is this concept of a weaponless fist fighting character who is often labeled as a "monk". But look around you. That's not how it works in reality. Yi Long is the only actual Shaolin monk to ever reach a high level in competitive fighting and even then, he fights just like another violent kickboxer.

For me, the way I see it, my personal philosophy in martial arts is that all apes, humans included, must learn healthy ways to express aggression. In an age of conquest, this would have been appropriate through militaristic adventures. But we don't live in that age anymore. Instead, our heroes in this modern age are hollywood actors and athletes, so we make do with what we have. Instead of rallying our own troops for a literal war, we instead channel those ugly emotions through athletic pursuits. Combat is just another sport for me. There should be nothing spiritual about it. It's just another tool, like how Zen Meditation can help boost your mental faculties even if you are actually a Christian.

Please discuss!
"Better" for what? There are many of us enjoy the philosophical side of it as much as the physical side. It makes for interesting debates and thought experiments. Take that away, and there's less to talk about with my MA buddies.
 

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