Sport vs Street ending the debate forever.

J

J-kid

Guest
New street vs sport update on "scenario" training.


Street vs sport from sharp: I've thought for a long time that the terms "Realistic Scenario Based Training", is the ultimate oxymoron. Both sides know its a scenario, both sides know it will end without death or serious bodily injury, both sides know each other and will see each other again. And even worse, both sides, usually, aren't very skilled in any delivery system or athletic enough to acually be a threat.


Just like an attack in the real world, right????

During a recent private session someone asked me my thoughts on scenario based training. I explained to them my background as a trainer in my agencies academy and SWAT training, using SIMs and other elements as part of their practicals, also what I learned from this on-going experience.

Then, I said, almost word for word, what you said, to make it real I would bring in my buddies from the Irish Ramblers, (a local rugby team), offer to pay them or their bar tab, if they can find a way, anyway, to throw this guy out the window. Now that would be a reality-based scenario. The rest is just really bad acting.


As far as how we see ourselves? No boundaries. I'm simply a fighter. That means I strive to be competitve in any environment. Like Joe said on his thread, I want to be able to hang (beat) boxers, wrestlers, jits guys, stick guys, whatever the event I want to have game.

Naturally that includes dealing with an assault type situation.

As one of my favorite tactical instructors said, "you need to be able to out think them, out talk them and if needed, out fight them, therefore, you must be prepared to out work them". -Dave Wittrock, sniper instructor at The Site.
-Paul Sharp



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The impetus was an incident at a defensive tactics class one of my guy's attended several weeks ago. Some really un-called for comments were made and I've been steaming ever since. I realize that is not the most actualized response but than I never claimed to be the most evolved primate, just trying.
In summary, here is/was the final straw. My friend goes to a D/T class that is one week long. On the first day he walks in and sees a familiar face. He says hi and starts to stretch out and talk about the up-coming presentation. Note that he has been trying to get into this class for about six months, so he is pumped. The familiar face is a guy that trained with us for less than a month, approximately once a week.Turns out this guy is the instructor for the first three days. Instructor has everyone introduce themselves and state any martial arts/training background. My friends turn comes and he says he has been training with the SBG,Il for a little while really likes it blah, blah. As soon as he is done, the instructor pipes up and says "for those of you that don't know, that is a sport centered dojo which is okay but really has no use for what we do and will probably get you hurt really bad in a real fight".Thats cool, everybody can and should have an opinion but really, is that necessary? That is just one of many comments made by this guy over the next three days.
Now for the rest of the story. He came to my gym, never lasted an entire session, puked his guts up within thirty minutes of starting each time. Never lasted more than thirty seconds from the touch of gloves or hand shake until being tapped, dumped or beat on like he stole something. Stated his credentials every time he was there which only made it worse because then the guy's thought he could hang,so why go easy. Never tired of saying, after being subbed, knocked down or otherwise beaten, that in the street he would have bitten or some other dirty tactic.Was completely uncoachable and would respond to any attempt to improve his game with comments like, "yeah but, coach ______ says" or "sifu _____ says that won't work in the streets". So I resorted to saying, hey do what is working for you. Thinking that after a week or two of nothing working he would come around. Not so, his final response was, this is cool but its starting to hurt my street defense so I'm not going to be able to train here any more. Hey, no problem, this isn't for everybody.

Then I start hearing this crap!?!?

So, put that together with every time you surf the web some knob is saying how sport guy's can't fight in the real world, and it finally got under my skin. Also add to that the mis-guided guy that showed up at my gym not once but twice and I've really had enough. Plus some other petty crap that is/was going on and I've now taken the Parliament Funkadelic approach to this and say lets rip the lid off this sucker!

BTW, this individual is certified in several "street" defense systems. So then, why can't he fight? After all, if he did that poorly when there were rules of engagement, what the heck does he think he will be able to do when I'm allowed to play nasty too?

I think that about covers everything. I really am a non-confrontational easy going kind of guy, ask anybody that has met me, knows me or trains with me.

Just in case anybody was wondering.

-Paul "I really do like James Taylor" Sharp
www.straightblastgymillinois.com



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As someone that is part of a group of guy's that are frequently dismissed as simply sport fighters I hope I have something useful to add.
Why the assumption that you can beat us without rules when you can't beat us with rules?

Those rules happen to protect both of us, it would seem that most have forgotten that small yet significant point. Whats keeping me from maiming you for life when I get position and you obviously can't get away? The rules, take those rules away and I'll curb your *** right after I knock/choke you out.

Why the assumption that a combat sports athlete will try to take the fight to the ground?

My last two fights, outside the recent gym incident, were started and finished on my feet. Another gym member also finished a fight this past weekend while standing outside a BK in the downtown area. One cross was all it took. We have had gym members do some real damage in street fights using aspects of their Clinch game. A close friend and gym member dumped his girls ex on his bean right in front of their house.Beautiful Suplex according to those present, the ex had to betaken away by ambulance. A Suplex will leave you seeing stars on a throwing mat, I can't imagine the damage done on concrete. Yes that one went to the ground, but only so the ground could be used as an immoveable object.

Why the assumption that we don't train and carry weapons?

I've completed numerous firearms courses, several members of the gym are MP-5, Handgun, Carbine and Shotgun instructors. We have one member that was a MOUT instructor in the military and another that is one of the few certified to teach Rapid Deployment Tactics. Throw in numerous certs for O/C, stick, less lethal and some other minutia and I think we have a handle on the weapons/tactics thing. We are also installing a lock box so that those that carry on a daily basis have a secure area to place their weapon(s) while training.

Why the assumption that my opponents friends will get involved?

Don't you think my friends, that also happen to be athletes, are just about salivating at the thought of my opponents buddies getting involved? Why should I have all the fun? And just who do you think will have a better handle on using the bottles, chairs and tables that are in the vicinity? I would imagine that an athlete that can Power Clean 375 could probably swing a mean table. In another event at a club in the west side of Chicago one of our guy's used a table to plow two of the clubs bouncers into a wall breaking one bouncers collar bone. Think of the damage he could have done if he only would train realistically.....

To sum it up lets look at it this way. What kind of guy usually does well in sports? Competitive, highly motivated, focused, pain tolerant, highly conditioned, strong and has way too much testosterone.

Now take that guy, and tell him he can bite, eye gouge, pick something up and hit his opponent with it, and you have an animal that most people can not handle. I see it on a regularbasis in my gym and the other SBG's around the country.

-Paul "Diplomat" Sharp



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a simple test of your trapping skills...., go to the Iowa State wrestling room wearing a t-shirt that reads, "I support Title IX" on the front and "I believe wrestling programs should be cut so we can have more women's field hockey" on the back. This should give you a reaslistic view of your ability to hold center line, step on feetor any other chi sao generated trapping skills....
Whats better for JKD? As in "street safe" takedowns, Greco, no doubt about it. I teach a course to LE called "street safe takedown and control". Its Greco with a twist or two. Its safer for several reasons, knees never touch down, arm control (countering any weapons/strikes), head control (countering bites/spit/movement),and you can use your new found training partner as a barrier between you and his friends. For example, say you want to make someone hate life? After the brain trust and friends have decided to actually fight you, rip bt into a front neck crank, now use the pressure from your back/hips/arms to steer him into his friends to effectively keep them off of you. He can't bite you because if he opens his mouth the pressure will break his jaw in an ugly way and if he hits you in the groin you'll acknowledge his futile attempt at a joke by lifting him completely off the ground using his 3rd - 5th vertebrae as a hinge point. Its a beautiful thing and an experience bt will treasure for the rest of his life.

The subtle joys of combat athletics.

-Paul "joyful" Sharp



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After reading an essay by Ken Wilber on the issue of translation and transformation I started to see some parallels in the world of combat sports. If we define the process of translation as the attempt, through force of will, to bring about change and the process of transformation as change brought about by forces outside our will, we can start this issue. Just for ease of usage I refer to any type of martial art, whether its shooting, sticks, knives, whatever, as combat sports.
I see on a regular basis, people turn to the combat sports in hope of transformation. They desperately want to be someone else. Someone stronger, faster, tougher and they see the combat sports as the quickest way between here and the mystical there. Although they are correct in their choice of combat sports as the vehicle, the problem arises when its time to go to work. Most people want to be an athlete, they just don't want to work like an athlete. Rather than put their ego aside and put their time in at the gym they do the next best thing, they attempt to translate themselves into an athlete. Through force of will they try to move themselves closer to the thing they perceive as the ideal. The tattoo's, shaved head and goatee are joined by the latest fight wear, along with a generous helping of the proper fight lingo and our guy is now on his way to being a fighter. The problem arises when its time to quit talking and start working. A person caught in the cycle of translation will have real difficulty getting on the mat or in the ring. In that arena it doesn't matter how you look or talk, only if you can perform. This realization is unsettling to a translational person as they think that they have changed themselves through force of will. They really believe that they are the part since they look the part. Sadly, getting knocked out or tapped out doesn't fit their perception of themselves so putting themselves in that position is counter intuitive. Please understand, this is not a judgment of those that have shaved heads, tattoo's and goatees, or those that wear fight gear as I have many friends that fit that description. The problem lies with the guy's that think that is all they need to get themselves "there". Sadly, the person caught in a translational trap usually won't last long enough for significant change to take place. They will quit training, moving on to the next thing that they think will take them from the self image they now possess to the self image they desire. You can observe the same thing in the so-called street fighting or reality based corner of the combat sport world. Scared people that translate themselves into lethal killing machines by toting around numerous knives, sticks and assorted weapons. The thing that makes these individuals really dangerous? They are still acting out of fear driven behavior. Without any knowledge of the moral and legal ramifications brought about by their actions. The truth is, they will never overcome their fear because they never confront it. Never testing their skills so as to give themselves a realistic view of their abilities. The fear compounds as they know they are untested which leads them to avoid the testing process for fear of losing and the cycle never ends.

The thing I see on a lesser basis, but what really makes it all worth it, is the person that is training for the pure joy of training. They love getting on the mat or in the ring and mixing it up. Testing their limits and pushing the boundaries of their performance. Nothing else matters, not the opinion of others, never keeping track of who tapped who or who schooled who in the ring, winning is a non-issue. All that matters is the joy of effort. Getting in the gym again and again, whether they feel up to it or not. Translation is the first step in this direction. Someone is accosted at a bar, shopping mall, parking lot or decides one day they want to learn how to fight. Into the gym they go, like anyone, they want to fit in so they make the conscious effort to change some things. They learn the lingo, realize long hair is a detriment, understand the need for fitness and maybe start to follow some of the events. So we could say the first step towards transformation is a translational force of will. One desires change and sets about doing it. The divide takes place in the path taken. If the person desiring change finds themselves in the proper environment the transition from translation to transformation is easy and imperceptible. In the right circumstances a person can be pushed to their limits, training harder than they imagined, getting closer to their goals with every training session. This requires an environment void of rituals, pecking orders and other ego based distractions. The translational person must see everyone working hard with no preference shown to anyone. They must see that we are all athletes on the path towards high performance, once in the gym nothing else matters. In an environment where those in translation can see athletes with a training history of 6, 10 or 15 years working hard on a daily basis to perfect the application of the fundamentals against a resisting opponent, allows this person to see that this is a lifetime endeavor, not a quick fix. Once the translational person comes to this realization, transformation begins. Now training is a labor of love based in joy rather than reactive fear. Confidence is built as performance improves and whether they look tough or not is irrelevant because they have been tested and know they can hang. Transformation takes root and grows as they realize their ideal. They can take care of themselves and know it, as a result of honest training they have a realistic view of their abilities. They are transformed, reaching the place that translation could never take them because ego would get in the way, now, free from ego as a result of their training they continue to train and grow transcending conscious effort. There is a reason we refer to training as ego remover. You will be forced to confront your ego, whether you move past the translational phase into a transformational place can only be decided by you. Will you put yourself in the position to be tapped, knocked down and thrown again and again as you work your way towards your goals or will you decide its easier to make a few cosmetic changes and hope the charade successfully covers your fear.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to add on to James point. This past weekend I arrested one half of a domestic battery. As I am taking him into the booking area to turn him over to the jailers he doubles over, falls to his knees and starts bellowing and puking. I asked him what his problem is and he says his stomach hurts. The jailer calls for a rescue and he is taken to the emergency room. The doc asks what happened, I tell him I have no idea, he was choking the life out of his brother when I showed up, all I did was spray him. Doc checks his stomach, looks around and than says his testicles have ascended..., Later his cousin said that during the fight he had hit him in the nads aproximately 30-40 times as hard as he could while he was choking him. Didn't stop him from choking him unconcious.
Another one happened about a year ago, I'm walking up to a father/son domestic when the son steps out onto the porch where dad is sitting on the stoop and hits dad full tilt with a golf club dead on in the throat. Dad does a weird squeal and jumps up, pulls knife and goes after the kid.

What was that acronym about throat-eyes-solar plexus-nads-knees?

Somebody should have told those guy's when you get hit in a pressure point you go down no questions asked....
 
OP
J

J-kid

Guest
The debate about training for the street and training for sport never seems to end. I decided to make an individual link to handle this question since it so commonly arises and to prevent any misunderstandings about my intentions when it comes to ODMA, it's active philosophy or curriculum. The following is my opinion and simply that. Please feel free to contact me if you have anything to add but I hope my point has been made clear by the time you finish reading this page. I don't see what all the fuss is about but here goes…

My definition of what is combative sport and what is fighting is as follows: If both parties agree to fight under specific rules and regulations within a specific time frame, then it's a combative sport. If any one party does not wish to participate and / or is forced to at any given time or place, then it's a fight. The primary difference is what is being fought for and the reason why. One is a job or a sport for money, honor, or prestige, and the other is sheer survival for life, well being and / or liberty. One entails specific rules of engagement; the other's only rule is no rules.

How this influences me and my role running ODMA is as follows: I train for many reasons. Self-defense is not one of them but simply a by product of them all. I believe that one on one hand to hand "fights" of honor only occur in the ring. I am not concerned with what worked in Feudal Japan nor what was honor once upon a time in a more "innocent" America. In my life, I have yet to ever see, read of, or hear of someone being attacked or robbed honorably. (Granted, I have seen a great deal of theft in boxing.) I am 34 years old with a loving family, rent, bills, debts and every working American's dreams to succeed. Responsibility, more so than any martial art could ever dream of, has readily allowed me to walk away from challenges to my ego. Now, do you actually think for a moment that a threat (not a challenge) to me or my loved ones would have anything to do whether or not I trained martial arts?! The will to action at that moment would have nothing to do with any confidence or techniques acquired through the martial arts. None! If I were alone and attacked I would rely on my track and field ability. If I'm with loved ones…the pain tolerance, endurance, power and ferocity given by God at that moment is a force of nature and has nothing to do with civilization's fighting arts. My training? Against being outnumbered or dealing with a weapon? No style will save you, only your wits. It has much more to do with your psychology and your will to survive and protect life than any manufactured technique or style designed supposedly to end it.

The myth of street fighting: They seldom ever occur on a street. Try instead, bars, clubs and places serving alcohol and selling a whole lot of mood and attitude. These ego-based displays of physical prowess usually occur around locations where single people go in numbers to socialize.

Obviously mix sex and drugs together with a large number of singlepeople and those not getting any of the first and too much of the second will be very frustrated. When you visit an establishment where the ultimate goal of most intoxicated patrons by midnight is to fight or fornicate, your chances of feeling the fight or flight response, a boot or bottle to the head, and even getting arrested is a good one. I practically lived and worked in clubs from age 17 through 28. Avoid them and you avoid 99% of the so called street fights.

The reality of assaults: Real fights are actually assaults. They can and do occur everywhere and at any time. In fact, unlike the scenarios above, statistically most assaults occur near or at your home. There are no stances, deflections, blocks or parries against strikes that come in the form of multiple led projectiles. Knife fights are called assassinations in the real world. The only knife ever involved is the one "suddenly" inside you. Movies would have it that every criminal places a gun at your stomach before making a long drawn out sales pitch or presents and twirls a knife in front of you before lunging in like an Olympic fencer. This is not the case at all. Criminals are scared too and seldom get close until they know you are secured, this at times means shot or dead. The knife is felt and not seen as it often comes from a blind side or from someone other than you are dealing with. Muggers and rapists use stun guns and pepper sprays as well as the ladies they attack. Assaults are predatory by nature and if they do not involve weapons, involve larger numbers, or at the least a much larger or stronger assailant than victim. Against these odds once they occur, no hand to hand martial art stands much of a chance and survival is more in the realm of psychological tactics, luck, and your ability gage the best moment to escape.

The grappling arts imply: "most fights end up on the ground…take them there "The striking arts imply: "all fights start standing up…keep them there "The mixed martial arts imply: "any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere"

Coast to Coast Crime Statistics state: 10 out of 10 assaults involve a weapon(s), being outnumbered, being physically outclassed or any combination of the above.

Street technique versus Sport Techniques or "Just add dirt" I can hear it now from all the street fighters... "But Luis, what about eye gauges, hair pulling, biting, ripping, pinching, scrotum striking, yanking and smashing, scratching, spitting, foaming at the mouth, growling, breaking bottles, wearing boots, colon control and crapping at will?" Well, what about all that? If you can't even hit a guy with a 16oz. glove how the hell are you going to eye jab him? If you can't keep a guy from putting you on the ground and proceeding to do his best rendition of River Dance on your cranium, how the hell are you going to just kick him in the balls or bite him? And if you indeed are getting punched, kicked, and out grappled by a superior martial artist and you get the bright idea to bite him, what's to stop him then from doing the same if not worse to you…and from a much better vantage point to boot? (Pun intended.) Bottom line…if you build a foundation on movement (timing and awareness in motion) and the attributes necessary to deliver and apply efficient strikes, controls and finishes, you just need to add the foul or dirty tactics. It doesn't work the other way around."Be like water…then just add dirt."

Luis (El Che) Gutierrez
3-12-2000



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted on PFS Forum by Luis on April 09, 1999 at 23:42:36 in reply tostatement after statement about training the killer instinct:

Though I agree that one must recognize and come to terms with one'sown darker side for both growth and true peace, I can't help but to mention the power of the other side of that equation. I would like to hear your thoughts on that side too. The following should not be takenpersonally unless of coarse it hits a certain cord within you. I'm just a bit touchy when I hear talks about Killer this or Killer that. Though I am always impressed with the level of respect and responsibility on this forum, I have perhaps frequented a few others to many times. So with that stated...
I have experienced rage from within and felt it from the outside as well; that rage and will to power that transcends the mere adrenaline rush of fear and/or anger and seeks to consume, digest, and excrete any threat it aims for. It exists and can be expressed differently depending on the character
and experiences of the person too. Though it's scary enough in the wide eyed, blood flushed face, and white knuckle fury of fully "committed" aggressor it's even much scarier in the calm, methodical, and reptilian manner of a "convinced" adversary. I firmly believe that the more experienced the predator the more "reptilian" and less "monkey" the mind set and expression of violence.

My point though is that how much do you scar the heart to survive the struggles of life? Enough so you can survive anything...but feel nothing? Build up enough armor and you have built a cage. It's a more delicate path than given credit too and one not to be taken lightly. I have seen many people in lines of work that demand a “killer instinct” and have personally seen them become dark themselves. I value the brave heart that can do what is necessary but recognizes the act for what it is and what it can do. If you look at history, some of the greatest warriors were nothing more than poets and farmers pushed too far. It was their gentleness and love of life that once threatened made them monsters in the eyes of their oppressors. Then again throughout history you will also find the greatest killers and conquerors fueled by the cowardice of jealousy, prejudice, and hatred. This KILLER'S instinct...is it simply a tool? Does a man who fights for his people's freedom, his family, his child have the same instincts as the one who fights for power and oppression of others. I would argue no. One's instinct is to preserve, shelter, and nurture and the other's is to control, dominate, and instill fear. Regardless of moral judgements (it's often relative) both can kill but one lives to create and the other to destroy.Who then has a better grasp of a killer's instinct? I would say the serpent is always wiser than the lamb on these matters and that an instinct to kill is not the same as an instinct to preserve.

My money is on the better skilled or armed fighter or warrior and that not only mean physically. My money is on the man who fights for the life of his child or wife and his love of life and not the #@^#^$ ******* who is so scared of it and that he can't see past his own fear, isolation, and bottomless hunger. It really isn’t always what you fight with but what you fight for. So much of the martial arts world is made up of tough talk as if we were living in times where martial arts meant so much to survival. It isn’t.

Kindness, compassion, a lust and a love for life are the true and eternal powers. If threatened to be destroyed, damaged, perverted, or confined they are nature’s best gifts to mankind to endure, escape, survive, and be victorious. You don't need to train a killer or predatory instinct. You already have it. A tiger doesn’t spend any time training to be mean or cruel. If anything, it plays to sharpen it attributes. It plays. When the real time comes, it then does what it really does. A man should therefore be a man. No more and no less. Striving to become anything outside of that is not recognizing what is already contained within.

Only faith and courage allow you the initial freedom to experience growth and liberate you to do so of your own accord. Fear and doubt can only offer you bondage to half truths and deceive you further and further away from the yourself and the truth. You don’t need to become a “killer” to face what kills life. You just need a life to live with all that sustains it. It takes real courage to live, love and enjoy it. All of it. If ever you are attacked and must defend yourself, let your LIVING self be undoubtedly what must be allowed to LIVE and let your attacker(s) be nothing more than what seeks to end. Give no thoughts to what you must do and you will do what must be done.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NHB vs. Street Fighting
Posted by Luis on the Deluxe MA JKD Forum on 1/ 18 /2000 concerning a debate between training the MA for the street vs. what is now being labeled NHB training and the importance of discovering yourself, growing, building ethics, spirituality, etc through MA training in general.

Martial arts in their active expression are physical. End of story. Unless you are talking extra-terrestrials, combat on earth requires movement.

Some then may argue that they have a spiritual side too, a meditative side, an all important psychological side. Guess what? So does every action. Why argue the obvious? If you are in the correct frame of mind, every single activity of a living conscious being is multi-dimensional. If you are “awake”, taking out the garbage is a great experience. Given the correct perspective, you can make break through and learn about yourself anytime doing anything.

I'm not trying to belittle the benefits of list making and organizing but let’s not forget that that’s all they are, just lists, stats, ideas, compartments for our own convenient collecting of stuff. Labels are definitely useful but always limited and time related observations. The world was flat and the center of the universe once and entire physical, mental, and spiritual structures stood on that paradigm. The world was "round” and stood among zillions of others and could have cared less about those “ideas”. Eventually exploration (action) toppled all that and so many new physical, mental, and spiritual structures were modified to fit around that “new idea”. Well the earth wasn’t exactly round as exploration (action) took us out into space and was now composed of various energy fields, polarities, and subtle but very influential interrelated systems. Exactly…blah blah blah! Noise. What is, is always more than what we limit it to be. The idea of athletics and movement being void of spirit is simply a very limited observation. Actually a skewed and relatively new one because the ancients always new otherwise.

Many forums now have mental and psyche forums along with their other divisions of the martial arts. Again, let me remind you, we make these divisions, they do not exist. They are words, sounds, and yes, noise.

In action, alive, and in the moment, hence always, there are no divisions, such thing as mind, body, spirit etc. These are just some of the current symbols or modes of expression. Tools no more no less but just tools and too often unfortunately just the ornaments of rhetoric, semantics, and circular arguments. Thoughts void of action are but mental masturbation, perhaps safe but empty of any fulfilling interaction.

Whether you currently use prereflexive to reflexive, subconscious to conscious, right brain to left brain, or body and mind/ spirit is quite irrelevant to growing and discovering yourself unless that is what you seek. They are just tools.

Life is alive. To spend it planning out how you should live it and how it should be lived is not living it at all. You have no choice…only time with which to delay it or get on with it. Try saying no and or maybe about your breathing. Better to just say yes and improve upon that as best you can with what you have. Yet fear expands and grows with every no or maybe when it comes to confronting life and gradually contracts and dissipates with every yes you make to life.

You must “fight” if you have chosen the art of fighting as your way just as one must paint if one has chosen painting as their way.

I have personally met *******s in every walk and down every path just as I have met kind and generous people there too. My point about all this (STREET versus NHB) / (Fighting People VS Fighting Yourself) is….drum role please…..

Religions, teachers, philosophies, gurus, martial arts, athletics, arts, sciences, drugs, ways and no ways and books won’t make you a better person. They are simply vehicles. Only you can & will. And…only you can or will ever be able to let it be taken from you as well. Stand still is an illusion in life. You are either going forwards or moving backwards. Staying challenged keeps you growing and offers greater possibilities to get you into that great “flow zone” from which you emerge with ever new insights.

You are always more than your own limits dictate. The “high” of training all out comes from the “temporal” loss f ego and self consciousness, the root of all fears. But the loss of self-consciousness does not involve a loss of self and or obviously consciousness, but only a loss of consciousness of the self. Hence, a moment free of your own fears and limited perception of self. Temporarily being able to transcend who we “think” we are is not only very pleasing, it gives us a great chance to expand that concept and idea and if repeated enough, can lead to self-transcendence and the feeling of stretching our boundaries and pushing them forward. This was my experience when training with Matt in the martial arts and one that I have had many times before and continue to do so when doing other activities fully and with all my being.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeet Kune Do "Trapped by Trapping"
Even an impeccably logical argument can lead to a false conclusion. Systems of logic, however sensible, elaborate, and appealing, are all based on a series of assumptions that originate or can be traced back to one statement. If that statement or any assumption built there from is proven to be flawed or false in any shape or manner, then that system of logic has and holds no real world application. Initial statements of reason must therefore be tested and stand the trials of living experimentation and exploration to discover their true worth, place, and function to the living world around it. Furthermore the systems of logic that refuse or deny such testing only serve to function within the inclusive parameters and isolated confines of their own rational limits and pose a greater potential to deceive and mislead that or those trapped within or by them."

Jeet Kune Do has become a form of demonstration, the style of intercepting an idle audience’s attention and blasting it with a myriad of complex movements that dazzle the eye and makes for great theatrics. Initially a living, moving, and developing philosophy founded on the real time application and refining of attributes as they pertain to fighting, it stands today as little more than staged dances dressed in the dramatic facial contortions and grimaces of actors. Taught by instructors who wear their certifications like fashionable awards of merit and value their lineage to a dead man over the progression of their living students, Jeet Kune Do has become a structured vehicle for decoration that entangles motion up with mimicry and values pattern as performance. To get to the very core of this classical mess, one needs only trace JKD back to its now classical origin, Wing Chun and hence…trapping.

Ask yourself, when was the last time you pulled off a successful Wing Chun trap? Anything remotely resembling one? Against whom? Another Wing Chun practitioner? How many assailants can you picture ever assaulting you using a Wing Chun structure or if you compete, how many combative athletes will ever do so in a ring? Have you ever successfully used a Wing Chun trap on an aggressive boxer and /or grappler? To what measure or what type of person are you equating your ability to perform and train with to? The classic or traditional stylist? The drunk frat guy? An emotionally disturbed librarian in a traffic dispute? Instead, how about equating your "martial" ability against a martial athlete? , How about getting a trap off against an actively training and developing fighter who has the conditioning and tactics to really pose a threat to you? Any combative sport athlete that trains with committed aggressive resistance and contact will do. You choose. A boxer, Thai Boxer, Judoka, BJJ player, wrestler, whatever. Hell, grab any conditioned athlete that plays in an aggressive contact sport for that matter. Ask any collegiate football player or hockey player willing to go at it with you with the same intensity they simply play and scrimmage with on a weekly basis and then see how your classically stylized theory holds up.

Against an aggressive resisting opponent, it is difficult enough to keep within a striking range, let alone attempt to conventionally "trap" his limbs.

If you are honest with yourself, the results you discover through this trial by fire session will have a profound effect on your entire training approach and concepts. You will begin to question the thinking patterns and logic behind all your hours spent on working Chi-Sao (sticky hands) and for that matter all those energy drills and box patterns designed to build fighting attributes. What fighting attributes? The many ways to take a beating at the hands of an experienced fighter? Fighting is contact oriented. It’s highly physical, emotionally challenging, and overall psychologically transforming. Success in the martial arts and combative sports, ultimately requires your courage and athleticism and not your sensitivity to patty cake drills with the sugary coatings of kung fu theatre.

Time spent training drills designed by martial sports that actively test their skills, can lead to more efficient strategies and techniques when encountering a fully committed opponent.

Essentially a philosophy of self-discovery and the freeing of oneself from the trappings of one’s own personal and culturally indoctrinated illusions, Jeet Kune Do was once about freeing one’s self from fears and false assumptions. Borrowing very heavily from the views of J. Krishnamurti, Lao Tzu, and Zen philosophy, it set out to revolutionize by example the way most had been looking at the martial arts. Alive and living in both breadth and scope, it was never intended to be categorized, copyrighted, and be put up for sale. Now systematically incorporated by those placing stock in certifications, levels, ranks, terminology and lineage, it stumbles along a static mockery of it’s intended potential and dynamic intent.

This philosophy can only truly exist or be expressed by or in the doing. It exists in living applications not dead demonstrations. Jeet Kune Do’s efficiency is in the living exchange of energy and not the post modern form of two man kata being deceptively labeled energy drills. Those drills have nothing to do with energy as it pertains to fighting. Fighting is alive. Those drills are stagnant and dead. They are trapped within the confines of pre-arranged limitations and standards. There is no room for energy outside of timing and motion. Energy is motion. Limiting and trapping its range and power within some drill ironically enough I guess is a trapping drill after all. You are confining it and if you do so long enough...it will die.

If you in "deed" believe to be training, teaching, and using Jeet Kune Do, don’t you in "deed" owe it to yourself and others around you to discard and reject what is useless? And if you in "deed" claim to represent a martial art that seeks out the truth and stresses originality of expression, should you not in "deed" place your work and faith in creation and not imitation? How do you ever expect to research your own experience and add what is specifically your own if all that you experience is not yours to begin with? Why live a second hand life? It is your own. Why borrow another’s?

Bruce Lee chose to live out and express his philosophy in a very physical manner with very instant feedback as to whether or not it worked. If you wish or have chosen to express your own in a similar vein, I suggest you put away the petty habits of collecting things and let them go. Instead, glove up, hit the mat, and train your attributes specifically for what they are going to be called upon to do. Fight. Bruce Lee is dead. His life’s work lives on only if your work is alive and you follow your own unique path, not his. Put JKD behind you and walk on.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your Field of Training
Taken from a forum discussion on Streetfighting concerning the SBG's credibility and ability to instruct someone in "self-defense."

I don't think you will get Matt or Burton to talk about "street" confrontations and such as I think they would agree with me that the point is mute and certainly nothing worth publicly sharing. What you will find is that among the SBG Instructors and Coaches is a background in various other systems including JKDC. We have all trained with drills and methods we learned to let go of. Not because they were a starting point and such, but because we found other methods to be more efficient for us, those we were working with, and for the jobs or sports we were training for.

You see, among the SBG instructors and coaches what you will find is that some are Cops, some grew up or live in neighborhoods that would make the worst in America seem like Disney Land, others have worked as bodyguards, bouncers, doormen etc. Yes, they have their experiences with the ugly and very real but prefer to talk, live for, and stress the good times. Their initial reason to get into the "martial arts" was indeed to improve their ability to fight and better their odds in life and/ or on the job. They already had backgrounds in sports or boxing, wrestling, Judo etc and wanted to see what else was out there in the world of the "fighting" arts. Combative sports emphasis just naturally developed further from trial and error training in the MA and attempting to implement them on the job and in the field. That's it. We all returned to our roots in athletics be they combative or not because they involve movement, stability, breath and a living pulse against anothers.

Yes, yes, yes, you have to alter certain things in the field or job. I know you know as well as any of us about all the variables that can exist in the "street" and the specific medical and legal liabilities and factors that exist for Peace Officers and security jobs. But the things you alter are not the athleticism or vehicles of the training but the mind set and most importantly the intent behind the force and will you bring to the fight. Ask what for and you get the specific why and how of it. But whether it's the athlete who trains for fun, to compete and win, the LEOs who must intercede, stabilize, and resolve, soldiers who must kill, complete the mission, and stay alive, or the man, woman, or child who wants fitness and fun, the field of play be it still, calm, clear, clouded, frenzied, heated, or frozen, is always the water.

Also.

Stating how our friends and gym members have survived or use the material we train effectively in the field or on the job is also pointless in that every single MA has the same testimonials in one way or another. Among cops, accountants, women and even children and against punks, hood rats, bad asses, drunken misaligned assaults, weapon or no weapon, we all have testimonials of success using our methods from the TKD schools to the Tactical Combatives guys. The point is and the emphasis should be more on personal efficiency and improving the odds of our training partners to do such things as defend themselves, do their jobs and most importantly to me...grow as people.

Much like the SBG instructors and coaches, are training partners and gym members also know, understand, and keep firearms. They train for many different reasons and are of many different ages but MA today involves guns, law suits, and will often involve loss of life or money, "win or lose", weapon or none.

I learn to learn from everyone but as to what I keep, use, and what I impart, well that continues to always return to what works and can be

trained under pressure and what involves keeping the body and mind clean, strong and sound.

As far as "everything working perfectly according to your preparation".

Nothing will perform perfectly according to your preparation but in perfecting your preparation you must perform. In other words, performance and preparation must strive to be one and the same.

Train swimming in the water. Dry land swimming is useless. And yes, training for synchronized swimming is super hard, will allow you to navigate in water and be graceful as a fish in a bowl but it won't win a sprint or endurance race or even keep you in one. If God forbid you have a boating accident, it will increase your chances of survival but not as much as the guy who swims daily in the ocean for speed and endurance, in stillness and in motion. Sport may call for more training in endurance and "street" for more of sprinting but it's all there in you building the attributes, delivery systems, and tactics athletically.for the short run and hopefully for the long haul.

Best of fortune,

-Luis
 
OP
J

J-kid

Guest
Why are forms not 'Alive'?

Believe it or not, there are still a few people out there that feel 'form', kata, or djuru training have some place for an athlete interested in performance. Why this belief still persists is a mystery, but lets see if we can lay the dead patterns to rest.
The main reason people falsely believe forms have some sort of value is usually listed as "muscle memory". The idea that a move repeated enough times, becomes smoother, or more accessible during an altercation. Repeating a move over and over again in the air will do absolutely nothing for your reflexes or so called 'muscle memory'. In fact, repeating a move or series of moves over and over again in the same pattern and sequence will actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly.
First, there is no TIMING, without a resisting opponent in front of you. Since there is no timing to be had, your reflexes, or response time against a resisting opponent, will not change, increase, or be helped in the least.
Second, there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be no benefit to your strength, body mechanics, or conditioning. In fact, your body mechanics may become altered in correctly due to the fact that you are not making impact against anything, but merely striking 'air'.
Thirdly, even when shadowboxing (another comparison morticians like to make when making zombies), you never want to repeat the same series of movements to many times in a row! This is a basic rule all boxing coaches are very familiar with. Go to the well to many times and your opponent becomes 'wise' to your arsenal. An example would be a boxer whom always hooked off the jab. After the second attempt he becomes predictable, and easy to set up for a counter attack or knockout. This is why it's important to make sure your athletes shadowbox fluidly. Watch them to insure that they are NOT repeating the same sequence of movements, in the same order, over and over again.
One basic difference that can be seen between a JKD Concepts Instructor, and a performance orientated Coach, is the difference in patterns. JKD Concepts Instructors, and indeed most 'traditional' Martial Artists, are consistently looking to learn, memorize, and repeat more and more patterns. A performance orientated Coach is always looking to break patterns, and movements that are repeated in the same order. A Coach should instead be watching his athlete to insure that when shadowboxing, working the heavybag, or any other piece of equipment, that athlete is not always repeating the same route of movements or combinations. This makes a fighter robotic, stiff, predictable, and creates bad habits. There really is no justification for maintaining the antiquated bad methodology of 'form' training.

What about solo training?

That's a good question and one I get asked allot. If you are blessed to have enough extra time after working your stand up, clinch and ground games against resisting opponents, then you should be concentrating on conditioning. Endurance training, resistance exercises, and stretching would all rank high on the list. Even reading a book would be a much better use of your time the memorizing and repeating a dead pattern. If you are grossly overweight then you should be working that endurance training daily. If you lack a good muscular physique, then you should be weight training correctly in order to avoid injury.There is always plenty for us to be working on!

Throw all the patterns and forms away. Stay fluid, and stay 'ALIVE'.

-Matt (Mono Loco) Thornton


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Tired Debate

I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary.

Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once and it sucks!).

You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system" and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite, a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane, or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions, and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke, etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have that delivery system.

Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game. Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc, that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves.

Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling, and Greco. My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground.Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". Thats faulty logic and poor assumptions.In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated.

Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still never be much of a fighter. Thats the problem with the JKD Concepts paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that? Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain thats involved in earning that strong base.

I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back, reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience. But, they do not go away with Instructorscertificates.

In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think thats fine. But thats not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.

Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily. Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand. A purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and gouges eyes but doesnt have the base in that 'delivery system'. If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal full potential, you MUST have that base.

Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor. They part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am very wary of people who talk about cutting arteries, and stabbing people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/ tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger.

This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like awarness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper spray,etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports, and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring to them.

-Matt (Mono Loco) Thornton


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hey Matt, is this guy any good?

"Hey Matt, is Sifu such and such any good? Hey Matt, what do you think of Guru whatshisname."

I get these questions often. Many of my e-mails every week seem to begin like this. 99% of the time I think these e-mail are sincere, and they are asking me because they feel I will be honest with them. However, most of the time I wind up giving them the same answer. If I have never seen that person spar, wrestle, or train in an Alive way, or any of his people spar, wrestle, or train Alive. . .then my answer is, "I honestly don't know? Go check them out."

This brings to mind a recent post where someone asked if another Wing Chun Instructor was any 'good' at stand up fighting.

When Rory (aka:Cheeky) responded with this statement:

"I have only seen him doing wingchun trapping and such. I have never seen him throw any rounds"

It seemed to be ignored, but it was an honest, and very smart statement. If you want to know if someone is "good" at fighting, or teaching some element of fighting then you must:

A) Watch them spar, or pull off their movement against a resisting opponent. or
B) Watch the "Instructors" students spar, or pull off their movement against a resisting opponent.

There is really no other way. Since as Rory say's he has "never seen him throw any rounds", or presumably seen his students "throw any rounds". There is really no way to tell if they are any good.

Anyone can 'look good', even 'look crisp' hitting focus mitts. Or demonstrating one and two step sparring, etc. It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with whether or not they can actually fight, or know how to teach anyone else how to fight. All it means is. . .they know what they think it should 'look like'.

Think of BJJ. Anyone who has seen a UFC, or watched one instructional video, knows what the mount position is. They could probably "demonstrate the mount position". If they are alert, and glib, they may even be able to DEMONSTRATE an armbar, or other 'move' from there. If you just LOOKED at them DEMONSTRATE mount, and then just LOOKED at a black belt BJJ player DEMONSTRATE mount, you may not be able to distinguish the difference at all. Especially if you are fairly new to the ground, (first few Years).

However, if you where on bottom, and attempting to escape mount position, you would know in a heartbeat which one knew what he was talking about. The novice gets bucked off, or winds up in guard easily, and the black belt drinks his coffee from mount while you struggle on the bottom to escape in futility. (or in Luis's case.. drinking a big soda, in Sharp's Case smoking his crack pipe, and in Adam's case, staring at a centerfold of Vin Diesel)

I think this point is fairly clear. As a truism, it is also clear that stand up fighting, and fighting in the clinch is absolutely no different.

Many people can 'DEMONSTRATE' a neck tie, but when a real Muay Thai clinch fighter throws one on you then you know. Many people can now 'demonstrate' an underhook. However, I ASSURE YOU when Couture gets that position on you, (and dammit he will), you will have a new found religion when it comes to the clinch.

One of the major flaws with non-alive training is that the very clear and distinct differences between novice, and expert, become wiped away.

This is in part why so many Instructors seek to cling to dead pattern's, memorized drills, and one and two step demonstrations. Without them, where would they be in terms of real fighting skill??

How do you know if you are a world class Silat person? How do you know if you are an 'expert' at 'WC' hand trapping?

Is it surviving some street fights? Is it in the pursuit of the holy grail of many JKD Concepts Instructors. . ."good form". . .which becomes defined as knowing more variations, and switches in Pok Sau Cycle then the next guy. Or looking 'crisp' on focus mitts.

How do YOU know?

Imagine saying this:

"See that guy with the Black Belt over there. I watched his solo form in the back. . .and then he taught this footlock technique. He is one of the greatest Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys alive today!"

Without ever having wrestled with this above stated Instructor, or watched him wrestle against another resisting opponent. It would be absurd! Obviously, to tell if someone is better then you, an Instructor, or expert at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, all you have to do is roll with them, or watch them roll against someone else. no choreographed demonstration of his deadly BJJ moves. no well performed memorized dance, kata, djuru (you pick the word) no 'lineage' would ever be an acceptable substitute in BJJ. Why? Because BJJ is an Alive, performance orientated Art form. Rorian could be your father, but if you have not put your time in on the mat, you would never be considered a BJJ expert.

I know how we define an Instructor and Coach. We define it based on PERFORMANCE executed under Alive circumstances. Your own, and that of those you are coaching.

I KNOW Chico has great stand up because I've seen him spar, and sparred with him. I have watched him knock more then a few people out. I know he can Coach well because all his people also have great stand up. That's not subject to debate. I can clearly say in good conscience that he is GOOD. Same goes for the other SBG Instructors. Same goes for Rigan Machado. I have rolled with Rigan, and obviously his students. The fact that he is an expert at BJJ, that he is GOOD, is again not subject to debate.

But, what about those that don't train Alive? A wing chun guy, Silat guy, etc. Are they good? I can't say.

Without Aliveness. . .how can you possibly define good?

-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com

"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides



"Well Known Guy:......the difference between sport fighting and combat
is a myth.......if your fighting arsenal doesn't resemble UFC/MMA matches
a little bit. Then it is not functional!".

I am not sure who this person is talking about, but that is certainly not something I said, and if it's an attempt at paraphrasing then it's a very poor one.

Do we address these other issues of self defense?

Answer, yes, when I teach I usually refer to it as the ABC's of self protection, and there are several articles about this subject on our website at www.straightblastgym.com

Do tactics and circumstances change between "sports" environments, and self defense, or law enforcement?

Of course they do.

However, the basic conditioning of your body, and the prime skill developed in the root delievery systems, and the training method (Aliveness) remains a constant.

To see how these delivery systems are used in areas such as Law Enforcement I would suggest checking our ISR program at www.isrmatrix.org

Luis and Paul will be releasing an ISR for civilians tape series next Year that details these skills for civivilians self defense as well.

Do I emphasize the "street" aspects of what we do all the time?

That depends completley on who I am speaking to, and with. When teaching LE, or Military, they have specific needs. When teaching civilian self defense, they also have specific needs. When teaching athletes looking to compete, they too have specific needs. Etc.

I have written a great deal on the subjects of awareness, paranoi, and the anger and sadness that many exibit who find themselves drawn to guns, knives, and violence. This is not a critic of all RBSD systems, or "people". Rather, it is a commentary on 'one' type of person that often finds themselves drawn into such things for unhealthy reasons. The reality of such people is self evident for anyone uderstanding the point being made. For those 'types' of people, a little athletic training can go a long way towards continued peace and well being.

So yes, we have extensive curriculum for RBSD, Law Enforcement people. For bladed self defense we use the STAB program. Another one of SBGi Coaches, Jerry Wetzel, has also developed the 'red zone' program, which is also highly functional, and follows a similiar paradigm.

Yes, we will be releasing various projects in the near future on the subject, and anyone who is a Police Officer can now purchase the ISRmatrix tapes at www.isrmatrix.org

And no, we are not an MMA Gym. Less then 2% of our students are interested in fighting MMA. Most are here for self defense, health, fun, and friendship.

The fact that we do also works within the environment of fully resisting opponents is a nice side effect of functional delivery systems.

Regards specific questions, a little research on our website goes along way. But I am also available for questions via e-mail at [email protected]

Enjoy the day
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com
 
OP
J

J-kid

Guest
Hi Mr. Thornton,
I apologize for not getting back to sooner. You had asked some of the ways your video series had helped my DT program. You donated a series of your first videos to my department.

Before everything was taught in a very low level manner. We would line the students up and they would perform the wrist takedown or the keylock hold etc, etc.

My academy even mandates that I teach a 7 step kata which consists of a down block middle block, its taken froma old karate style.

I have complained for years but it hasn't changed. Recently I was given the job of doing inter department training. This program was all mine, so I used my boxing headgear, some gloves and some pads, and demonstrated basic slipping from boxing, to avoid the karate style blocks, and taught everyone the importance of keeping thier hands up.

I then used your methods of " in three's " by showing the wrist holds that we are mandated to use. For example instead of the old way where the technique was done over and over, I had one guy resist so the other officer would have to switch or flow into another hold or takedown. I't still stoneage but I am dealing with guys who are overweight or have just the basic academy training.

I then demonstrated the takedown that I used on a domestic call that I learned from your series.

I then did a escape technique from a ground position that goes into a handcuffing position.

I then showed the importance of the clinch, this really impressed them. I related to the officers that in order to arrest someone we have to be close, so learn to clinch.

I didn't mean to go on and on, but the series you sent have really changed my thought process.I was going through a bad divorce and I remember I was watching the videos where you are talking about being a warrior or a beggar. I have applied that in my personal life and on the job, it may sound goofy but it made a big difference.

Once my financial situation gets better I will be ordering some of the new series. They are getting great reviews.

Thanks for everything.
Rob D
 
OP
J

J-kid

Guest
Hey Matt,
it amazes me that there is still a sport vs. street debate at all. To me, without a solid foundation in NHB/Vale tudo, a person would be hard pressed to perform under the pressures of a real `self-defense' situation. As a person who has evolved from traditional styles, to Jkd concepts, to`Functional JKD', I quickly found out how difficult it was to apply much ofwhat I had learned in Alive situations. One example that really stands out in my mind, is when I was working `street jkd' against various attacks, showing possibilities with headbutts, knees, and elbows, etc. to my training group. When we first started working it, we spent alot of time getting the `technique' of it, working with a certain amount of cooperation as we drilled our elbows to the head, etc. Well, over time, we started working with more resistance, and had the `attacker' in a helmet, so we could really hit. Suddenly, with a little resistance, and more aliveness, I found out that I couldn't connect with any of my elbow strikes! I had pulled my punches for so long, that my muscle memory seemed to have screwed up my distance and timing. Couple that with an opponent that doesn't want to be hit by your elbows, and its a whole new situation. In essence, we had to re-learn all that we had trained before. If we had spent more time developing our NHB foundation and sparring, we wouldn't have had that problem with distance, timing, etc. To me, self-defense is simply as your Straight blast guys always put it: just add dirt. The way I approach it in coaching might be to simply point out where the `street' version might be applied. For example, during clinch drills, showing where and how the eye gouge might be useful. But again, its within the context of developing a good clinch game. The same thing with biting. We train alot of jujitsu. Occasionally we'll work the strategy of biting an opponent `within' the jujitsu game. But we have to have a jujitsu game first. On top of that type of training, I work a bit of scenario training into it. Working against a guy that just charges at you ballistically, swinging wildly, etc. Or the guy that just slams you up against the wall and proceeds to try and punch through your skull, etc. Again, without the NHB training, ones ability to deal with these situations will be severely lacking. But I also think that it helps to work some scenario based training to learn how one's strategy might change from situation to situation. Some tactics and tools might be more appropriate depending on the environment, etc. But once again I have to stress that without the sparring and knowledge of the ranges, etc. that comes from a good foundation in NHB, all of the strategy, tactics, etc. will fall short. Anyway, I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but I just wanted to add my voice to the debate and to say thanks again for the `awakening' that you and your gym have brought to the world of martial arts.
Peace,
Michael Agee

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello.
I'll try to be brief...I spent over nine years in prison for robbery and assault with a firearm, and had many years prior to that living a life of crime (my life is totally different now, but that's another story). I have seen more true violence than most, for sure more than most "self-defense experts", and I'll say this: the vast majority of what they teach is ********. When I got out of prison, as part of an overall regimen of self-development, I started taking martial arts classes. I had had no formal training in this area, but had lots of experience in attacking people. I initially took aikido, but quickly dropped out, for I found it to be, for my needs, useless--it's a beautiful form of dance, not much more. Next, I found a JKD school. Only the "advanced" students could fight, the reason being that they had to train muscle memory; yet, I observed that when they sparred, none of them did trapping, chi sau type movements, et cetera. So I left. Now I train at a NH gym, boxing, jiu jitsu, wrestling, and I love it.

Anyway--I can say from experience that self defense is a dead end street; if I am going to attack someone (which I won't, but we're talking theory), they are going to have NO CHANCE to defend themselves adequately. I will control the situation from start to finish, and no amount of weapon disarming drills will help. I think that schools that teach such run the potential of bringing harm to their students--if someone actually believes he can take a knife away from a blood-thirsty meth addict or a cold calculating ex-convict they are sadly mistaken; much less the incredible fallacy of trying to take away a firearm (not that any good criminal would allow a victim into disarming range). For a "streetfight", one on one, nothing can prepare one like live training--as you well know. I know I'm not saying anything revolutionary, but I wanted to validate, from my perspective, your message about aliveness.

Thank you for all your work in trying to educate the martial arts community.

Peace,
Bret



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just finished reading a lot of and skimming the rest of the discussion on sport vs street. I write not because I'm an expert who has anything to add to what has been said, but rather because I am the furthest thing from an expert, and I am most likely the kind of person who finds himself caught up in the debate and anxiously perplexed by it.
I am no fighting expert and do not compete. What I am is an undersized guy who through much of his life has found himself the target of blathering bullies in need of an easy victory. In consequence, I took up boxing and wrestling because, as opposed to the traditional Eastern martial arts, they get right to the point and, even in solo training guises, emphasize maximum effectiveness. Of course, boxing and wrestling are also more culturally immediate (every American male my age grew up watching Mike Tyson, and every high school has a wrestling program) than the Eastern arts, and the training feels more true-to-life. I say all this not as a way to privilege boxing and wrestling over any other unarmed combat form, but simply to explain how I got into self protection skills and from what orientation I come.
My very limited training in boxing in wrestling, perhaps because it was very limited, taught me important lessons:
(1) For someone who does not devote a major portion of his life to developing his mind and body into a unified fighting tool, there's nothing more important than learning the basics, learning the basics, and learning the basics. A perpetual novice will be much better served in a real-world assault situation with a well-grooved ability to perform a single-leg take down and a classic 1-2 combination than he will be working to perfect something like a spinning hook kick or a supplex.
(2) Related to number one, no technique--no matter how sophisticated and beautiful--is worth a damn if you can't perform it under combat situations. For someone who doesn't live and breathe fighting, it's better to focus on the techniques that you'll remember to use and use well when it counts. Those of us who are not expert fighters have to stick with what's simple.
(3) Related to number two, the most important "skill," and probably the hardest to teach and learn, is channeling your nervous reaction to a combat situation into an actual self-protection technique instead of just freezing up and taking a beating.
(4) Related to number three, learning to properly respond to an onslaught, if it can be taught, comes easiest when it's tested and practiced over and over again in simulations that resemble as closely as possible situations you're likely to encounter in a real-life situation. The brain, especially the part of the brain most of us have to rely upon when under attack, works based on cues and neuro-muscular memory: stimulus and response. Throw a playful punch at a trained boxer's shoulder and watch him move immediately to his base and raise his hands a little before he realizes you're just horsing around. Affectionately clasp a wrestler around the back of the head, and watch him move his feet back and move his hands to your elbows before it dawns on him you just want a hug. That's the kind of thing that gets imprinted as a result of practice, practice, practice. It's the kind of tool you most want to have when it's for real.
These four lessons have provided me the opportunity to learn other lessons in real-life situations:
(1) The most effective "street" technique is one that you remember to apply, that you apply with neuro-skeletal-muscular efficiency, and that hits the target.
(2) Related to number two, eye-gouges, knees to the groin, stomping on the instep, elbowing the sternum, punching the throat, etc, are no more effective than fancy flying kicks (universally maligned by "sport" and "street" experts) if you throw them at the wrong moment, meaning, if you have thrown them when the opportunity is not there or when throwing them compromises you defensively.
(3) Related to number three, key to effectiveness in real-combat situations is recognizing an opening and applying the correct technique, all under extreme stress. This has taught me that, as a hack wrestler and boxer who has nonetheless spent plenty of time practicing even at my crude skill level, I am still in a better position to use eye-gouges, knees to the groin, etc, than someone who hasn't undergone similar training, because I've had imprinted effective reactions to stress situations and the ability to recognize openings and exploit them. In other words, "street" tricks are more useful to me than they would be to someone completely untutored and completely unfamiliar with the kinds of combat situations my boxing and wrestling practice simulated. This is where, in my amateur opinion, martial arts dojos and "street" defense seminars miss the boat: the technique is worthless if you don't instinctively apply it and apply it in accordance with the situation, and that ability comes with continuous practice.
You will, I hope, notice that the culminating points in both these rubrics (number four in the first, number three in the second) establishes a simple principle: "sport," even if it's not intended to be anything other than sport (like wrestling and boxing, which, as most of us experience it, is not taught to have a "street" application) builds by far the most important foundations for what it takes to survive the typical bar-room assault. This would seem an important point to make in the "sport" versus "street" debate.
Lastly, most of the folks who represent one gym/school or another in this debate, whether they call themselves street or sport, are really tough guys who could quickly, brutally, almost clinically disassemble most blowhards who cause trouble at the pool-hall. I hope both sides will remember that, while they may be talking to each other, a lot of us ordinary, wimpy guys who only want to be able to have a night out without fearing for our lives are the ones listening most closely, and none of us is as tough as any of you. The discussion we most need will make it clear how much of the debate actually applies to us and what we ought to be focusing on the meantime.
(1) What I think the "street" side attempts to emphasize that is useful to dopes like me is that techniques should be simple, easy to remember and apply, and immediately effective.
(2) What I think the "sport" side wants to say that we mortals ought to listen to is that practice, practice, practice in as-close-to-reality-as-possible combat simulations will condition our response to assault such that we can survive it (I would think there's a basic point about aerobic and anaerobic conditioning to be found in the sport perspective as well).
In my admittedly sub-novice opinion, any school or gym which forgets either of those two points is getting into a pissing match while leaving a lot of us out in the cold, without the mental and physical tools we need to make it out of the pub when things turn nasty.
Thanks so much for the work you do. It may sometimes seem like your message is not getting out to the common people, but I can assure you that a lot of us are listening.
Sincerely,
-Max Simmons
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 9, 2004
Messages
2,228
Reaction score
113
Location
Dana Point, CA
Nice rant. Glad to see I'm not the only one taking Karma hits for having an opinion that doesn't smile on trads.

BTW, loved the part about the suplex. What's the name of the Russian Olympic Wrestler who broke a couple necks dropping people on their heads a few years back? One of my favorite quotes: "I train very hard. It is very unpleasent."

Rant on...Rant on..
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
Interesting posts! I think that one thing that alot of people, especially the ones, who are, just a little closed minded to the rest of the world, seem to forget that just because someone is doing MMA, does NOT mean that they cant fight on the street. Just because they fight in a cage where you cant eye gouge, bit, hit the groin, etc, does NOT mean that they cant do it on the street. Look at sparring in your traditional arts. There are MANY things you CANT do there either. Funny how the people who talk so much crap about MMA forget that the sparring that they do has even MORE rules than a MMA fight ever will. Does that mean that a traditional student cant apply what they know on the street???

Mike
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 20, 2003
Messages
1,045
Reaction score
39
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Wow...I couldn't agree more!

Unfortunately, those who need to read this the most are too busy practicing kata, reading their system-founder's biography, discussing where to focus the middle-knuckle strike in their pre-arranged technique, or arguing about who is the rightful heir to their dead founder's soke-ship.
 
OP
S

Shiatsu

Guest
You need to put this in the kenpo section :ultracool
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
Old Fat Kenpoka said:
Wow...I couldn't agree more!

Hey!! Thats my line!! LOL! Just kidding my friend!!

Unfortunately, those who need to read this the most are too busy practicing kata, reading their system-founder's biography, discussing where to focus the middle-knuckle strike in their pre-arranged technique, or arguing about who is the rightful heir to their dead founder's soke-ship.

Ok, ok, ok....I'll say it this time.....I agree!!! :boing2:

Mike
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 9, 2004
Messages
2,228
Reaction score
113
Location
Dana Point, CA
How friggin' cool is this thread. Of course Doc C will say it's all encompassed in HIS kenpo, even if missing in ours (or, certainly, the need for it). But I would love to see the wolves howl on this one.

BTW, just ribbing you doc...After more then 20 posts, I think we're all a bit predictable in our views. I just poked myself in the ribs in another thread, so decided to take a pot shot at you...neither a traditionalist, nor a reformist, but some wizened, ambiiguous, middle-ground thing.

Namaste!

Dr. Dave
 
OP
S

Shiatsu

Guest
Old Fat Kenpoka said:
Shiatsu: I think it's your turn to PM a moderator for this!



Why PM a mod, everyone can handle it. Sigung Bishop will most likely agree, and Doc Chapel will agree as well. But some others will have a coniption. To bad Clyde is gone.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
Old Fat Kenpoka said:
Well...if you wan't to get Clyde involved...you could cut and paste the whole thing onto the KenpoNet...

Yeah, that is an option, but then you'll have people like Kirk getting on your a** about posting things that are not Kenpo! I've posted things on KN and have had to listen to him cry over and over. Is it really worth hearing it again?? IMO,, NO!

Mike
 
OP
S

Shiatsu

Guest
OK so why shouldn't we post it on the kenpo section here?
 

Latest Discussions

Top