If we took away the philosophical or spiritual roots of a combat art... Wouldn't it actually end up being BETTER?

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Zombocalypse

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And by the way. I think no to the OPs proposal.

In that it is easy to be bad. But it takes courage and dedication to be good.

So if you remove that from martial arts you remove the strength it takes to fight.



Honestly, man, if you're a fan of Stoicism, I love you. Stoic philosophy is awesome.
 
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Ah, never mind. I'm reacting to someone who literally uses troll face as his avatar. :D

Just so you know I'm not a troll. Just some philosopher with extreme views.

Please don't accuse me of it unless you see some clear trolling. People might think similarly, speak up, and then I'm banned. I learned over the years, when hanging out in online forums (reddit excluded), to go out of my way and really express my genuine thoughts instead of misleading people with little words. Misleading people with little, well-timed words is a very effective trolling method, but I'm past that stage. I'm thirty-one, bro.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Because words are supposed to have meaning. The word "martial" has its roots in Latin. Something to do with the god of war, Mars, or something like that. Martial is ultimately about combat. Just because you add "art" to "martial" doesn't permit you to add prayers into your curriculum. Otherwise, just lead a cult. And become one of those weird McDojos that YouTube influencers always make fun of.
Literal word meanings change based on usage, and idiom pushes them often well beyond their original meanings.

Youre now arguing vocabulary, as if it were philosophy.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Yeah. Which is why I said, "law-abiding and civil". Are you seriously gonna reject a kid in your class just because the poor guy can't get along because of Asperger's? Bro, you gotta be clear with the rules. If you say, no racial slurs, you gotta mean no racial slurs. Don't be one of those idiots who establish rules and then makes exceptions on their star pupils. That's pathetic.

You gotta define what "behaving" means. Kids come from different backgrounds. Some like to cuss, some hate it. If you say some weird, vague, ******** rule like, "be kind to one another" and then kick out a student for "cussing" when he's been categorically kind to others and justify the expulsion by him not being kind, what the heck kind of hypocrite coach are you?

Would you listen to a genius scientist on how to lift weights? love no. Hell no. Even if he thinks he knows better than others. He doesn't lift and probably doesn't have friends. For that same reason, no one should give a flying damn about your opinions on what is good or bad behavior.

Are you trying to be a goody-two-shoes Nazi by teaching kids profound life teachings in a martial arts school? That's damn hilarious.

Ultimately, I love fighting, I love Olympic lifting, I love powerlifting, and I love video games. But my truest passion is philosophy. If people ask me some deep, philosophical question, I'd gladly answer it. It's me doing my job. At the same time, I wouldn't be an idiot and dare to teach someone how to throw a punch because I'm not a boxing expert. People should know their damn places.
So, here you basically say there should be moral codes upheld in a training setting. I think we all agree on that, but it seems at odds with some of your previous posts.
 
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Zen is a type of spirituality that can help not only Christians, but martial artists as well. "Mizu no kokoro," (mind/heart like water) refers to having a calm attitude which allows for clearer and truer perception. This, in turn, allows for quicker and more accurate reaction, certainly a plus in MA.

Is spirituality just "another tool" that can be used? A tool is used for a specific purpose, then discarded or put away. Spirituality is something that resides internally and can be used constantly in everyday life. The principles and philosophies of MA can be applied to many endeavors. For this reason, the accomplished Samurai warriors were, according to Musashi, referred to as "strategists," something more than just fighters and to be respected in arenas other than the battlefield.

Okay, my friend, I hate to say this but that literally sounds like a human being giving up his humanity in exchange for an internal demon soul, Capcom Gouki style.

I'll put it this way... We are apes. We may be far smarter than other apes, but we are still apes. Chimps and gorillas are incredibly violent. They can fight well not just due to their strength, but through sheer instinct. Do they meditate?

Hell no.

I refuse to use sorcery to improve my fighting skills. That's immoral.
 
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Literal word meanings change based on usage, and idiom pushes them often well beyond their original meanings.

Youre now arguing vocabulary, as if it were philosophy.

Philosophy is everything. We philosophers even gave birth to science itself. Aristotle was a scientist before science existed. He was called a "natural philosopher".

So really, language and literature themselves are a product of philosophy.

I apologize but I will defend philosophy until my dying breath. It's nothing personal. It's basically like you with your martial art.
 

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Just so you know I'm not a troll. Just some philosopher with extreme views.

Please don't accuse me of it unless you see some clear trolling. People might think similarly, speak up, and then I'm banned. I learned over the years, when hanging out in online forums (reddit excluded), to go out of my way and really express my genuine thoughts instead of misleading people with little words. Misleading people with little, well-timed words is a very effective trolling method, but I'm past that stage. I'm thirty-one, bro.
i dont know if youre a troll or not. But it is a fact that your avatar is literally referred to as troll face.
 

Gerry Seymour

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"Would MA be better without the spiritual aspect?" No. But the martial artist would be worse, lacking the morality and principles that guide him to use his MA responsibly and honorably. Without that, one is left with a savage, dangerous thug. I suppose one can choose what type of fighter he prefers to be. That's one point.

Another is that the philosophy/spirituality of TMA does contribute to the effectiveness of of MA, as you allow in your somewhat contradictory quote below:

Zen is a type of spirituality that can help not only Christians, but martial artists as well. "Mizu no kokoro," (mind/heart like water) refers to having a calm attitude which allows for clearer and truer perception. This, in turn, allows for quicker and more accurate reaction, certainly a plus in MA.

Is spirituality just "another tool" that can be used? A tool is used for a specific purpose, then discarded or put away. Spirituality is something that resides internally and can be used constantly in everyday life. The principles and philosophies of MA can be applied to many endeavors. For this reason, the accomplished Samurai warriors were, according to Musashi, referred to as "strategists," something more than just fighters and to be respected in arenas other than the battlefield.

So, in a traditional sense (as opposed to just sport), is a true "martial artist" simply a fighter, or something more? I think it depends on one's aspirations in regards to MA.
I dont think it necessarily follows that not teaching a moral philosophy in class leads to immoral thuggishness.
 
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i dont know if youre a troll or not. But it is a fact that your avatar is literally referred to as troll face.

I also have a friend in social media who posts pictures of anime girls as his avatar. Does that make him gay?
 

frank raud

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You make it effective by listening to shallow champions without an ounce of spirituality in their bones. If they graduated middle school, they are literate enough to explain combat techniques. These shallow, meat-head, uncouth champions who fought in competitions (Judo or MMA) and crushed their opponents have much richer opinions in combat than some founding father who wants everyone to be kind to others
Aah, I see, so you can't really explain how it would be better without the basic tenets, unless you took the ideas from some meat head (I'm sorry, shallow, meathead, uncouth), and had them show you a more efficient way, thereby following the basic tenet. Makes sense when you explain it that way. Now I wonder, would these shallow meatheads be showing you judo, or a way to fight that may or may not include judo techniques? I'm sure that Zombiepocalypse-jitsu (and it would be a ju, not a do) is awesome, but how much could you crib from judo, while ignoring the basic ideas that it evolved from, and still call it judo?
 

Gerry Seymour

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Philosophy is everything. We philosophers even gave birth to science itself. Aristotle was a scientist before science existed. He was called a "natural philosopher".

So really, language and literature themselves are a product of philosophy.

I apologize but I will defend philosophy until my dying breath. It's nothing personal. It's basically like you with your martial art.
You arent defending philosophy (because it hasnt been attacked). You are all over the place trying to justify an Ill-considered stance you seem to believe is deep. Rather than giving a rational justification for your stance (the philosophical approach), you respond to strawmen, argue semantics of linguistic roots, and attack others.

You sound petulant.
 

frank raud

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Not a recognised moral philosophy?

If your club held no standards. I believe it would become thuggish.
That's where that mutual benefit thing comes in. Even the Dog Brothers, while bashing on each others with sticks and other weapons, express it as "higher consciousness through harder contact"
 

Gerry Seymour

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Not a recognised moral philosophy?

If your club held no standards. I believe it would become thuggish.
If you have no standards, sure thats possible. The OP didnt refer to throwing out the standards, but the teaching of philosophy (essentially). Requiring reasonable behavior will prevent thuggish behavior in class, without needed philosophical teaching.
 

frank raud

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If you have no standards, sure thats possible. The OP didnt refer to throwing out the standards, but the teaching of philosophy (essentially). Requiring reasonable behavior will prevent thuggish behavior in class, without needed philosophical teaching.
In 35+ years in jiu jitsu/ judo, I have never had class time in philosophical teaching. It has always been lead by example. Some of those examples weren't good, but never been lectured on beliefs.
 

frank raud

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I mean look at Judo. Who cares what Dr Kano taught about morality and gentleness? Just use Judo to hurt enemies and to defend yourself. At the end of the day, it is a self-defense system and an Olympic Sport designed for violent confrontations and athletic exhibitions.

I spent a good number of years playing Japanese roleplaying games, and a common theme on those games is this concept of a weaponless fist fighting character who is often labeled as a "monk". But look around you. That's not how it works in reality. Yi Long is the only actual Shaolin monk to ever reach a high level in competitive fighting and even then, he fights just like another violent kickboxer.
Are you suggesting that role playing games are not firmly based in reality?
 

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