If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have “Missing Movements”?

[Marsha Larts]

n/m

 

[QuantumKitty]

Taiji isn't necessarily 'internal'. There are lots of people who practice taiji without a clue about the internal foundation upon which it's based - as has been borne out in numerous online discussions. Practicing form 1000s of times or doing line drills and other busy work doesn't necessarily impart internal method or skill.

Form(s) practice isn't even really required in order to practice internal method. I've had taiji study groups explore internal method in things they do every day that have nothing to do with taiji form, but still contain the 8 Gates and Five Steps - raking, mopping, shoveling snow, pitching hay, sweeping a floor, sawing and planing wood etc...

24, 37, 48, 108, it makes no difference. If the principles and methods are understood, there's no such thing as an incomplete form, as long as the 'form' is also understood.

The irony is that Taijiquan, historically, has a foundation in "External" martial arts.

The "internal" likely came later, layered on top of the "External".

If Taiji is stripped down to nothing more than a set of vague proverbs that is so shallow that raking and mopping can accomplish the same thing, that sounds like a very broken transmission.

Imagine that. A several hundred year old martial art replicated by mopping the floor.

 

[Marsha Larts]

The irony is that Taijiquan, historically, has a foundation in "External" martial arts.

The "internal" likely came later, layered on top of the "External".

If Taiji is stripped down to nothing more than a set of vague proverbs that is so shallow that raking and mopping can accomplish the same thing, that sounds like a very broken transmission.

Imagine that. A several hundred year old martial art replicated by mopping the floor.

No need to be so imaginative as to twist what was said into something that wasn't.

The transmission I got worked just fine. One can practice all kinds of internal method in almost everything they do if they understand it. But those that don't understand it will always offer counter points such as those you posted just there..

 

[QuantumKitty]

No need to be so imaginative as to twist what was said into something that wasn't.

The transmission I got worked just fine. One can practice all kinds of internal method in almost everything they do if they understand it. But those that don't understand it will always offer counter points such as those you posted just there..

Worked just fine... for what exactly? You understood the "principles" to... do what?

 

[Flying Crane]

Here we go sgain… does taijiquan have leg work? Yes, Tung Ying Chieh’s fast form has a, i guess you would call a hook sweep. Wu style repulse monkey is a sweep with a rather hard take down. Diagonal flying is a kind of trip. But not knowing your terminology, i could not tell you if it has all in your list or not. But then there are others, but why list them… wait a few days and you’ll be right back saying the same thing again… and without going further, you already know my opinion of your knowledge of taijiquan…. Have a nice day

Why anyone still thinks that what is contained in the forms is the sum-total of what the method offers, is beyond me. But hey, I’m just an interloper here…

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

The irony is that Taijiquan, historically, has a foundation in "External" martial arts.

The "internal" likely came later, layered on top of the "External".

You are right! Taiji came from long fist. Taiji uses the exact stances as long fist uses such as

- horse stance,
- bow-arrow stance,
- striking tiger stance,
- empty stance,
- twist sitting stance,
- golden rooster stance,
- 7 star stance,

Only monkey stance is not used in Yang Taiji. Not sure it's used by other Taiji systems or not.

Does this guy train "internal", external, or both? It's always easier for discussion with a video.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

The irony is that Taijiquan, historically, has a foundation in "External" martial arts.

The "internal" likely came later, layered on top of the "External".

If Taiji is stripped down to nothing more than a set of vague proverbs that is so shallow that raking and mopping can accomplish the same thing, that sounds like a very broken transmission.

Imagine that. A several hundred year old martial art replicated by mopping the floor.

You can have good gung fu washing dishes, there is no reduction.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

No need to be so imaginative as to twist what was said into something that wasn't.

The transmission I got worked just fine. One can practice all kinds of internal method in almost everything they do if they understand it. But those that don't understand it will always offer counter points such as those you posted just there..

100%

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

Worked just fine... for what exactly? You understood the "principles" to... do what?

Do whatever you like with it. The principles apply.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

You are right! Taiji came from long fist. Taiji uses the exact stances as long fist uses such as

- horse stance,
- bow-arrow stance,
- striking tiger stance,
- empty stance,
- twist sitting stance,
- golden rooster stance,
- 7 star stance,

Only monkey stance is not used in Yang Taiji. Not sure it's used by other Taiji systems or not.

Does this guy train "internal", external, or both? It's always easier for discussion with a video.

Why don’t you tell us what he is doing? It’s your video presentation.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

You are right! Taiji came from long fist. Taiji uses the exact stances as long fist uses such as

- horse stance,
- bow-arrow stance,
- striking tiger stance,
- empty stance,
- twist sitting stance,
- golden rooster stance,
- 7 star stance,

Only monkey stance is not used in Yang Taiji. Not sure it's used by other Taiji systems or not.

Does this guy train "internal", external, or both? It's always easier for discussion with a video.

All those stances are in many different styles. If I do a Mok Gar Kuen and do it slow most people can’t tell if it’s tai chii or gung fu. If I do first section of Yang long form as fast as I can most will see that and think gung fu.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

You are right! Taiji came from long fist. Taiji uses the exact stances as long fist uses such as

- horse stance,
- bow-arrow stance,
- striking tiger stance,
- empty stance,
- twist sitting stance,
- golden rooster stance,
- 7 star stance,

Only monkey stance is not used in Yang Taiji. Not sure it's used by other Taiji systems or not.

Does this guy train "internal", external, or both? It's always easier for discussion with a video.

I don’t think this is very good, whatever it purports to be.

 

[QuantumKitty]

Well, this has been a memorable conversation.

Never did I think there existed a person who believe that being skilled at washing dishes has no reduction to being skilled at a martial art.

At that point, there is a subset of Yang Taiji that isn't a martial art at all. It's really just a philosophy. There's no method.

It's like trying to learn a new language and thinking that all you have to do is memorize the grammar rules.... while knowing no vocabulary. They can learn the grammar rules of the language by heart, and still be unable to speak the language. They have no vocabulary because they think it's too "External".

And the original question of this thread is the equivalent of: "If a language is grammar-oriented, how could it be missing vocabulary?"

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

Why don’t you tell us what he is doing? It’s your video presentation.

It's like a long fist form and doing slow. Most of the moves exist in long fist form.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

And the original question of this thread is the equivalent of: "If a language is grammar-oriented, how could it be missing vocabulary?"

In one short sentence, you have said everything that I have tried to say in all my posts.

The disagreement between OP and I is:

- OP believes power generation is the only grammar.
- I believe power generation is only part of the grammar, combat principle/straight are also the grammar.

Examples that I give for combat principle/strategy are:

1. 跪 bend your knee back, or
2. 盘 swing your leg side way, or
3. 抽 pull your lower leg back, or
4. 过 use outside crescent kick to escape,

1,2,3,4 are used for dealing with different directions of leg attack. Unless you train all 4 different principles, you can't deal with all different direction leg attacks.

Example of 1. 跪 bend your knee back.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

Well, this has been a memorable conversation.

Never did I think there existed a person who believe that being skilled at washing dishes has no reduction to being skilled at a martial art.

At that point, there is a subset of Yang Taiji that isn't a martial art at all. It's really just a philosophy. There's no method.

It's like trying to learn a new language and thinking that all you have to do is memorize the grammar rules.... while knowing no vocabulary. They can learn the grammar rules of the language by heart, and still be unable to speak the language. They have no vocabulary because they think it's too "External".

And the original question of this thread is the equivalent of: "If a language is grammar-oriented, how could it be missing vocabulary?"

What does Gung fu mean to you? Maybe you misunderstand me, skilled hard work is just that. That’s two hard working people. The hard working person you are today, and the one you aspire to be tomorrow. This is what makes a skilled practitioner, whether they be dishwasher or martial artist.

 

[windwalker099106]

And the original question of this thread is the equivalent of: "If a language is grammar-oriented, how could it be missing vocabulary?"

“If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have ‘Missing Movements’?”

The thread isn’t about replacing technique with philosophy.
It’s about how internal development changes expression — and why not every application is spelled out literally in the choreography of a form, nor does every outward expression necessarily reflect the internal principles that make it functional.

Just as a grammar book doesn’t list every possible sentence,
that doesn’t mean the language is “missing sentences.”

Taiji was originally taught — and still is by some teachers — through single movements to establish the “grammar” of the art.
Only later are those elements combined into “syntax” so one can truly converse.

A Taiji form teaches method, structure, and internal organization.
It has never been an exhaustive list of techniques.

 

[Same Trick51]

You think "External" means "brute force"?

By definition, "brute" can mean "absence of reasoning or intelligence".

So surely, you don't think every External martial art is absent of reasoning or intelligence?

It could be, but I hoped you to explain with is the internal and external of taijiquan you pointed out should be there

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

“If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have ‘Missing Movements’?”

The thread isn’t about replacing technique with philosophy.
It’s about how internal development changes expression — and why not every application is spelled out literally in the choreography of a form, nor does every outward expression necessarily reflect the internal principles that make it functional.

Just as a grammar book doesn’t list every possible sentence,
that doesn’t mean the language is “missing sentences.”

Taiji was originally taught — and still is by some teachers — through single movements to establish the “grammar” of the art.
Only later are those elements combined into “syntax” so one can truly converse.

A Taiji form teaches method, structure, and internal organization.
It has never been an exhaustive list of techniques.

This.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

In one short sentence, you have said everything that I have tried to say in all my posts.

The disagreement between OP and I is:

- OP believes power generation is the only grammar.
- I believe power generation is only part of the grammar, combat principle/straight are also the grammar.

Examples that I give for combat principle/strategy are:

1. 跪 bend your knee back, or
2. 盘 swing your leg side way, or
3. 抽 pull your lower leg back, or
4. 过 use outside crescent kick to escape,

1,2,3,4 are used for dealing different direction of leg attack. Unless you train all 4 different principles, you can't deal with all different direction leg attacks.

You prefer symphony, he prefers jazz, there is room for both.