If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have “Missing Movements”?

[everything]

“If internal skill is internal, how can a form have ‘missing movements’?”

Usually in demos we see or have felt, there is some kind of contact point. If it's not a situation of everyone is already in contact (as in some pushing hands), how did two people come into that contact? Presumably someone with "internal" skill still has some movement when meeting some kind of attempted strike, grab, kick, throw. But does that need to be from a catalog of 100s or 1000s of "conventional" "techniques"? It seems yiquan is an "internal" art that moved in the opposite direction. From whatever "movements" were in xingyiquan to relatively few movements. Did xingyiquan people then say yiquan was then "missing" movements? Some of what I've felt, technique seems irrelevant, b/c at that point of contact, there is simply no technique that could conceivably "work". In that sense, it's certainly tempting to say that is "better".

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

We've already been over this earlier in this thread: Unlock Your Kua : Why Bone Structure Limits Your Range of Motion

Release -> compress is as plain as day in the video I posted.

Enjoy the roundabout. I'm taking the next exit.

When you say "release -> compress", are you talking about "body chase hand" method - hand go first and body follow?

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

Did xingyiquan people then say yiquan was then "missing" movements? Some of what I've felt, technique seems irrelevant, b/c at that point of contact, there is simply no technique that could conceivably "work". In that sense, it's certainly tempting to say that is "better".

I do agree that if you can kill your opponent with 1 punch, you don't need anything else.

I just talked to a Baji guy on the phone last night. He said that Baji system doesn't have "foot sweep" because Baji guys believe if they can kill their opponent with their Baji punch, they don't need "foot sweep".

If one thinks he doesn't need certain things, the term "missing" has no meaning for him.

 

[windwalker099106]

It seems yiquan is an "internal" art that moved in the opposite direction. From whatever "movements" were in xingyiquan to relatively few movements. Did xingyiquan people then say yiquan was then "missing" movements? Some of what I've felt, technique seems irrelevant, b/c at that point of contact, there is simply no technique that could conceivably "work". In that sense, it's certainly tempting to say that is "better".

Depth matters more than quantity.
Someone who goes deep into a few movements will always surpass someone who collects many but masters none.

This connects directly to the idea of “missing movements.” Yiquan stripped almost all choreography from Xingyiquan, yet practitioners didn’t feel anything essential was lost — because the method stayed intact. While I don’t practice Yiquan myself, I agree with much of the thinking behind that approach.

All martial arts use the same basic body. What makes a system effective isn’t how many techniques appear in the form, but the principles that organize movement.

Those principles have long been described as “external” or “internal,” referring to different training processes and the different outcomes they produce. Neither is “better,” they don’t lead to the same destination. Early stages may look similar; deeper stages diverge.

A form was never meant to list every possible application — just as a grammar book doesn’t list every possible sentence. Without principle, technique becomes a limited catalog. With internal depth, principles generate the correct response even in situations never shown in choreography.

Some people see forms as catalogs and think something is “missing.”

Others see it differently:

A form isn’t missing movements.
It teaches the internal engine that creates all movements.

 

[QuantumKitty]

When it comes to the obsession with "Principles", there is a problem with this mentality in that it confuses the journey with the destination.

Let's use learning mathematics as an analogy. Imagine a group of advocates claiming that solving practice problems is pointless because there are an infinite number of math problems.

At first, you might think they have a point there. Why would you do something as stupid as going through practice problems when there are an infinite number of different math problems? It would be stupid of you to memorize the solutions to all of them, right?

Yet, in reality, working through these problems is the primary way students improve; by tackling enough case studies, they learn to generalize.

An advocate of “principles” often believes it’s a better use of time to simply recite axioms (the principles), reasoning that if all math solutions are derived from axioms, a deep understanding of them should be sufficient to master the subject of math.

But learning doesn't work that way. In math, you would like to have the skill to work through any kind of problem thrown at you. But the "journey" to do that is to work through lots of concrete examples.

While Taijiquan does not have a codified list of named techniques, math also doesn’t have a codified list of problem sets either. That lack of standardization doesn’t stop math teachers from assigning homework. Many Taijiquan practitioners cannot demonstrate valid applications precisely because they have never been guided through practical examples themselves.

It's like how AI needs "data" before it can learn to generalize and produce its own "data".

You don't just go: "Hey AI! Here are the 'principle's of a cat. Now generate me images of a cat." The AI needs lots of data of cats first.

If being principle-oriented breeds infinite usages, why do we see so few usages? And the mere fact that they are showing the same thing repeatedly across thousands of videos is a bit hypocritical because that is the very criticism they have for a “technique-oriented” approach.

It seems like a viscous feedback loop where the inability to showcase a diverse set of applications from their art = "not understanding the principles"

And then they bash their head at Yang Chengfu's "10 Essential Principles".

And strangely, doing that doesn't work. They still have nothing to show for, and are accused of not understanding the principles enough.

In my opinion, they have it all backwards. They are treating the destination as the "journey".

 

[Flying Crane]

Techniques are expressions of principles. You do need techniques to practice, to understand the principles, which then help you understand how to use the techniques, which then helps you understand how to spontaneously create whatever technique is necessary.

So yes, you need to practice techniques too. But you don’t need to collect every conceivable technique. At some point, you have enough to understand the lessons. More techniques become a burden and a hinderance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

Let's use learning mathematics as an analogy. Imagine a group of advocates claiming that solving practice problems is pointless because there are an infinite number of math problems.

At first, you might think they have a point there. Why would you do something as stupid as going through practice problems when there are an infinite number of different math problems? It would be stupid of you to memorize the solutions to all of them, right?

In math, whether you may want to solve problem in only 1 field (destination 1), or you may want to solve problems in may different fields (destination 2), your path will be different.

Let's use "leg skill" as example. You can use your leg to attack your opponent's 4 sides and 2 doors:

1. right leg from outside,
2. right leg from inside,
3. left leg from inside,
4. left leg from outside,
5. front,
6. back.

So, there are at least 6 categories of techniques. Each category has at least 5 different techniques. So, there are at least 30 different techniques total.

Do you intend to tarin:

1. all technique in all categories (you need to train 30 techniques)?
2. only 1 technique in all categories (you need to train 6 techniques)?
3. all techniques in only 1 category (you need to train 5 technique)?
4. only 1 technique in only 1 category (you need to train 1 technique)?

Whether you may select 1, 2, 3, or 4 (destination), your training path will be different.

 

[Marsha Larts]

When you say "release -> compress", are you talking about "body chase hand" method - hand go first and body follow?

No
One part moves, all parts move
One part stops, all parts stop


release -> compress is kind of like a sneeze that the body learns to 'organize' and express by practicing specific solo exercises similar to the ones I've outlined in various threads here at MT. The work of putting it into the body. Are you interested in any of that?

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

No
One part moves, all parts move
One part stops, all parts stop

release -> compress is kind of like a sneeze that the body learns to 'organize' and express by practicing specific solo exercises similar to the ones I've outlined in various threads here at MT. The work of putting it into the body. Are you interested in any of that?

You are talking about "body unification (6 harmonies) - all body parts move and stop at the same time" instead of "power generation" here. IMO, there are different subjects. For example, I can have perfect "body unification" without generate maximum power.

Could you give a concrete application example to show this?

 

[Marsha Larts]

Do you have any video, or any application example to show this?

Yep

Posted it a while back - A matter of perspective - taijiquan

It shows everything I've been talking about these past few days.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

Yep

Posted it a while back - A matter of perspective - taijiquan

It shows everything I've been talking about these past few days.

It says the video is not available any more.

Again, are you talking about "body unification - 6 harmonies" here? The reason that I ask because I can have perfect "body unification - all body parts move and stop at the same time" without generate much power.

It also depends on whether you try to generate power into 1 direction (for striking), or you try to generate power into multiple directions at the same time (for throwing) such as pull your opponent's arm toward the south direction and spring his leg toward the east direction at the same time. This way, your left hand and your right foot move/stop at the same time.

We may have some confusion here. When we talk about power generation, the striking art and the throwing art are different. You may talk about the throwing art power generation while I'm talking about the striking art power generation.

 

[windwalker099106]

You are talking about "body unification (6 harmonies) - all body parts move and stop at the same time" instead of "power generation" here. IMO, there are different subjects. For example, I can have perfect "body unification" without generate maximum power.

Body unification is not the same as the Six Harmonies.
“Everything moves together” is just external coordination — useful but superficial.

The Six Harmonies (六合) are a classical framework for unifying internal intention, qi, and spirit with external structure. They describe how the internal leads the external, and how power is organized differently in internal methods.

This is directly related to internal power generation.
The Six Harmonies aren’t a separate subject — they are the foundation of how internal arts produce force.

 

[Marsha Larts]

It says the video is not available any more.

Again, are you talking about "body unification - 6 harmonies" here? The reason that I ask because I can have perfect "body unification - all body parts move and stop at the same time" without generate much power.

The sounds that come from the contact on the steel column and the heavy bag indicate plenty of power being generated in the two versions of BKTS shown in the video.

It also depends on whether you try to generate power into 1 direction (for striking), or you try to generate power into multiple directions at the same time (for throwing) such as pull your opponent's arm to the south direction and spring his leg toward the east direction at the same time).

It isn't a matter of trying to do anything other than what's described in my recent posts on this topic.

BKTS can be applied in much the same manner as tai otoshi, among other things. The principles allow for a versatility of applied method without trying to affect any particular technique. I don't believe in techniques.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

the heavy bag ...

If you use heavy bag training as example, I think you are talking about the striking art model. Do you agree with me on the following:

A body is like 3 separate springs. Without training, each spring can be compressed and released separately. With training, all 3 springs can be compressed at the same time, and also can be released at the same time (all body parts move/stop at the same time).

Please notice that these 3 springs can generate 3 different powers (for throw) instead of be combined into 1 power (for strike).

In thread 138 I said:

Back leg bending (compress) -> back leg straight (release).

The power go through back leg heel -> back leg knee -> hip -> spine -> shoulder -> elbow -> hand

Here I'm talking about all 3 springs combine power sequential into 1 point.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

Body unification is not the same as the Six Harmonies.

Let's see if we agree with the striking art power generation in general. Do you agree with the following?

A beginner may have power generation broken problem because his power hasn't reach from his knee to his hip yet, but his hand has already start to move.

By using 6H, his right back knee and his right front elbow start to move at the same time. The problem is, his back leg power hasn't reached from his right back knee to his hip, his right elbow already starts to generate power and send to his right hand.

 

[windwalker099106]

Let's see if we agree with the striking art power generation in general. Do you agree with the following?

A beginner may have power generation broken problem because his power hasn't reach from his knee to his hip yet, but his hand has already start to move.

By using 6H, his right back knee and his right front elbow start to move at the same time. The problem is, his back leg power hasn't reached from his right back knee tohis hip, his right shoulder already starts to generate power and send to his right elbow.

I don’t agree with that framing, you’re describing a sequential kinetic model that has nothing to do with what’s being discussed here. Internal method isn’t based on “power traveling joint by joint,” your example doesn’t apply.

 

[Marsha Larts]

If you use heavy bag training as example, I think you are talking about the striking art model.

No

I'm not talking about the striking art model

Do you agree with me on the following:

A body is like 3 separate springs. Without training, each spring can be compressed and released separately. With training, all 3 springs can be compressed at the same time, and also can be released at the same time (all body parts move/stop at the same time).

Please notice that these 3 springs can generate 3 different powers (for throw) instead of be combined into 1 power (for strike).

In thread 138 I said:

Back leg bending (compress) -> back leg straight (release).

The power go through back leg heel -> back leg knee -> hip -> spine -> shoulder -> elbow -> hand

Here I'm talking about all 3 springs combine power sequential into 1 point.

Not what I was shown or practice in either of the styles of taiji I learned. But if that's a model that works for someone else, more power to them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

I don’t agree with that framing, you’re describing a sequential kinetic model that has nothing to do with what’s being discussed here. Internal method isn’t based on “power traveling joint by joint,” your example doesn’t apply.

Are you saying Taiji "brush knee twist step", your power doesn't generate from your back leg and go all the way and reach to your leading hand?

I don't believe in techniques.

As a Taiji guy, I assume you also train "brush knee twist step".

I'm not talking about the striking art model

How do you generate power for your "brush knee twist step"?

bottom -> up then back -> front

 

[windwalker099106]

Are you saying Taiji "brush knee twist step", your power doesn't generate from your back leg and go all the way and reach to your leading hand?

That model applies to external mechanics, not what we’re discussing.
Internal issuing isn’t sequential.

In my line of Taiji, power doesn’t “travel” joint-by-joint.
It comes from the Six Harmonies — the inside directing the outside — which allows whole-body coordination rather than a kinetic chain.

When the harmonies are coordinated the body acts as conductor, not moving as origination point for force
Originating in mind , focal point directed by intention
It’s simultaneous organization, not step-by-step transfer.

We join and attach so there’s no separation.
Changes in my body create changes in theirs as their structure reacts attempting to stabilize itself — that’s what we call release (放).

It follows the traditional cycle: listen, ask, control, release (听、问、拿、放).

 

[Marsha Larts]

As a Taiji guy, I assume you also train "brush knee twist step".


How do you generate power for your "brush knee twist step"?

bottom -> up then back -> front

BKTS as it's practiced in the form(s) is one of the iterations or versions of Pull-Down. It isn't a technique. It's an 'energetic arrangement' (one of the 8 Gates) that has been put into the body through the foundational work of exploring the idea of Pull-Down.

Notice how the rear hand completes its movement before the lead hand stops in the video you posted. That BKTS has not been put into the body via foundational work - it's 'chasing a look' rather than the idea of Pull-Down as the body might understand it if the body were allowed to learn it before it became a part of that guy's form.

My tried and trued method of imparting the idea of Pull-Down is to hand a trainee a six-foot staff and tell them to push themselves across the floor without moving their feet or letting the staff lose purchase on the floor - kinda like paddling a canoe or poling a pirogue. Ridiculous, right? Now their body understands the idea of Pull-Down. Now they 'do' Pull-Down with the same energetic arrangement they used to keep the end of the staff from slipping out from under their push, except now they're applying every bit of intent they can muster to push themselves across the floor with an imaginary staff while just standing there, checking to make sure they're maintaining the postural principles of tjq, and exploring the way in which their body arranges itself under those conditions. And then they switch sides and discover how their body arranges itself from that 'perspective' because it's almost always different.

Now the Six Harmonies can be understood as the way in which the body is connecting without it being prescribed as some sort of physical directive. It also stirs the dantian quite nicely after a bit of practice.

You can try it yourself, or not. 10 minutes either side with frequent breaks to relax, reset and check to make sure the postural principles are sound.

After Pull-Down has been put into the body it can be a 'punch', slap, throw, casting with a fishing rod, downward oblique cut with a sword or halberd, or any number of actions in which the body can 'apply' Pull-Down. Heck, it can even be practiced in a taiji form as BKTS if you want.