If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have “Missing Movements”?

[Kung Fu Wang106]

a lot of pushes in demonstrations (not all of them) can just be easily negated with strong leg foundation/root + a little something else.

If I grab on your arm, when you push me, since our bodies are connected, I will pull you with me. Taiji people don't want to talk about "grab" and "clinch" because both are the best counters for "push".

After you have obtained both grips on your opponent, if your opponent tries to push you, you can "shake" him. "Shaking" is also a good counter for "push".

IMO, "push" has little or no value without adding in the leg skill (this is why I addess the important of leg skill). Even if I have grips on you, if you push me and also hook my leg, you can still take me down with your body on top of me.

If you just stay in the Taiji world, grab/clinch/shake can all be ignored. But if you step out of the Taiji world, you just can't pretend that your opponent won't do that to you.

Bruce Lee once said, "I punch and I don't push". He also tried to bring Taiji back to the combat reality.

 

[QuantumKitty]

If I grab on your arm, when you push me, since our bodies are connected, I will pull you with me. Taiji people don't want to talk about "grab" and "clinch" because both are the best counters for "push".

If you just stay in the Taiji world, both grab and clinch can be ignored. But if you step out of the Taiji world, you just can't pretend that your opponent won't do that to you.

Bruce Lee once said, "I punch and I don't push". He also tried to bring Taiji back to the combat reality.

There is a story about this. Donn Draeger and Robert Smith had a disagreement.

So, Robert Smith encourages Donn to go try Zheng Manqing out.

Donn had said: “Robert is after me to cross hands with Zheng Manqing. What am I supposed to do? Go easy on a fragile old man and enhance his reputation or beat up a fragile old man and damage mine? So Robert said I should check out Huang Sheng Shyan. That he was the man I should go through if I wanted Zheng. So I did”

The author of the writeup, Amdur, asked Donn: “How did you do?”

Donn replies: “The man could push, I’ll give him that. I must have gone twenty feet back . . . but I had a hold of his jacket as I went and I rolled over in a tomoenage and choked him out.”

So, I looked up what tomoenage is:

One of the ironies of many Yang Style demonstrations, including the application video above is that they preach "Stick and Follow", yet most of what they do is "Unstick & Repel".

If a martial art application was akin to a sentence, then much of the applications shown is just a "1-word sentence".

For example, pushing someone away is just a "1-word sentence". There's no continuity there; they immediately placed a period the moment they tried to send the opponent far away.

So on the discussion of "missing movement", a lot of what's talked about are really just "1-word sentences". Like a jab could be a "1 word sentence".

In the Taiji paradigm, I like being grabbed. And in my view, the really skillful Taiji methods are the ones where the opponent ends up right next to you because you sustain physical contact to continue to torment them even when they're on the ground. Pushing someone away is a really low-hanging fruit.

It's amazing how unstable an untrained human is by default. So pushing them far away is not that impressive since humans suck at stability by default.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Pushing someone away is a really low-hanging fruit.

It's also counterproductive if the push puts the opponent out of range. This is a pure defensive move, not advancing the offense. Ideally, one should take the initiative and find a way to attack when in close contact: Knee, elbow, throw or takedown, even a headbutt. A short sharp push/palm-strike can shock the opponent and make enough room to get a good punch in as a 1-2 combo. I find this very effective.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Ever stand on someone's foot and give them a hard shove backward? Don't try it on friends or family.

 

[windwalker099106]

It's also counterproductive if the push puts the opponent out of range. This is a pure defensive move, not advancing the offense. Ideally, one should take the initiative and find a way to attack when in close contact: Knee, elbow, throw or takedown, even a headbutt. A short sharp push/palm-strike can shock the opponent and make enough room to get a good punch in as a 1-2 combo. I find this very effective.

If what you see is just “a push,” it may be worth trying the kind of work shown in the video below.
watch at the slowest speed.....

That’s where you can clearly feel the difference between a movement driven by an external engine and one driven by an internal engine. The effect and the timing are different — the feel is the part most videos can’t really capture.

"Master Lü Baochun demonstrating “bu ding, bu diu” (不頂不丟) — “don’t resist, don’t let go.”

In this kind of training, the mind reacts to what it feels — not to what is visibly being applied to the body.

The release is very short in real use — there’s no time for the opponent to choose a response. What you often see in practice clips is the “long power” version, which allows a partner to feel the quality without getting hurt.

"If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have “Missing Movements”?

 

[windwalker099106]

here is a story about this. Donn Draeger and Robert Smith had a disagreement.

So, Robert Smith encourages Donn to go try Zheng Manqing out.

Donn had said: “Robert is after me to cross hands with Zheng Manqing. What am I supposed to do? Go easy on a fragile old man and enhance his reputation or beat up a fragile old man and damage mine? So Robert said I should check out Huang Sheng Shyan. That he was the man I should go through if I wanted Zheng. So I did”

The author of the writeup, Amdur, asked Donn: “How did you do?”

Donn replies: “The man could push, I’ll give him that. I must have gone twenty feet back . . . but I had a hold of his jacket as I went and I rolled over in a tomoenage and choked him out.”

Interesting story — It doesn’t give much context or explain what the two people understood the exchange to be.

If it were an actual challenge match, there wouldn’t be any “pushing.”
Being pushed is normally part of a demo, where long power is used instead of short issuing.
Without knowing what they agreed to beforehand, it’s hard to interpret the result.


Here’s another story where the context is given:

“They have also been tested by many other groups in the park, as well as by many visitors from different countries. One year, a member of the Gracie family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged, rules were agreed upon, and after three short rounds of freestyle pushing, Gracie went home with dirt on his back.”

In this case, the rules were clear and both sides knew what type of exchange they were entering.
If grappling had been allowed, the outcome might have been different — just as the outcome changes when someone brings judo rules, wrestling rules, MMA rules, or tuishou rules.

Context determines what kind of skill can be expressed.
Without that context, stories don’t really tell us much about the arts involved — only about the rules and expectations of the moment.

 

[Same Trick51]

internal = pure blood.
external = muggle (mud blood)

There is a huge prejudice involved here.

I hope someone can answer my following question and give me a straight and honest answer. Please don't say that "internal" people don't train technique.

I want to develop a good

- hook punch.
- roundhouse kick.
- head lock.
- hip throw.

Can "internal" training help me to do it better? If the answer is

- yes then why boxer, MT guy, wrestler, and Judo guy don't train "internal"?
- no then why should I care about "internal" training?

I would expect Mike Tyson should come to China and trains "internal". It hasn't happed yet. Why?

Many focus on an argument of specific ableness of generating power when argumenting for IMA’s uniqueness, it’s kind of a [mostly non intentional] provocative argument, mostly generating questioning than power.
The argument for “power generation” should be secondary if at all.
The “internal” of the IMA’s[solo exercises] is to refine what’s otherwise refined in sparring - listening(reading)/timing. For skill of such requires specific unbroken mental awareness, thus for example is why TJQ form is one long unbroken flow, the longer the deeper that awareness aim settle.
It’s not first hand about generating power or even techniques but to understand the right time, all the time(not only for martial situations)

Mike Tyson was mentioned in the thread, while in Japan for a title defense Tyson showed interest in Aikido visiting Gozo Shoda’s(famous student of Aikido founder Ueshiba) school, unfortunately a couple of days after he lost his title. As for China, he do have a Chairman Mao tattoo.

 

[Same Trick51]

tMy view of Taijiquan (if we're being loyal to the actual name "Taiji") should be an art that have "Internal + External" Skill.

you mean because of “Taiji” there should be brute force as a part of the art ?

 

[Same Trick51]

When I say that

- long fist form has no ground skill.
- Chinese wrestling form has no kick and punch.

I'm sure my long fist teacher and my Chinese wrestling teacher will both say, "I agree with you."

Why should I treat "Taiji form has no leg skill" differently?

What “leg skill” do longfist form have ?

 

[Same Trick51]

When you mentioned Chang Dongsheng saying "Yang has no legs", that is something a Taijiquan teacher said as well, but the meaning is probably different than what you and Chang Dongsheng meant.

What the Taijiquan teacher largely meant (as it pertains to Taijiquan) is lack of "root".

For example, here is an example of a 38 year Yang disciple on the left pushing a 5 year Chen practitioner on the right.

We can say the guy on the left is lacking, but that does go to show how a few decades under a famous school doesn't mean much.

Replace the the guy on the right with the green-shirt guy in the application video, and he'd be jumping back.

I'm sure you have your own thoughts on how to deal with pushes, but from a Taijiquan perspective, a lot of pushes in demonstrations (not all of them) can just be easily negated with strong leg foundation/root + a little something else.

That’s a trick not really have anything with skill of root to do

 

[QuantumKitty]

you mean because of “Taiji” there should be brute force as a part of the art ?

You think "External" means "brute force"?

By definition, "brute" can mean "absence of reasoning or intelligence".

So surely, you don't think every External martial art is absent of reasoning or intelligence?

 

[QuantumKitty]

That’s a trick not really have anything with skill of root to do

That is true; this is part of a trick involving ruining the push as well.

But it's also a combination with the root. It's multiple ways to deal with a push done together.

But if you take someone with no root attempting this trick, it won't work too well.

And if a mere trick can negate a push so easily, that only furthers the argument of why pushing shouldn't be an art's "signature move".

 

[Xue Sheng99]

That is true; this is part of a trick involving ruining the push as well.

But it's also a combination with the root. It's multiple ways to deal with a push done together.

But if you take someone with no root attempting this trick, it won't work too well.

And if a mere trick can negate a push so easily, that only furthers the argument of why pushing shouldn't be an art's "signature move".

Pushing is not the art’s signature move, at least in my experience. It is a training tool, it has its uses in applications. Add to that some folks see the slow movement and think everything is a push. See the same movement in Wing Chun they call it a palm strike. Taijiquan has several strikes.

Interesting comparison
My Yang Taijiquan shifu, who has only trained Yang Taijiquan, says Wing Chun has more strikes than Taijiquan

My wing chun Sifu, who has trained Hung ga, Wing Chun and Taijiquan says Taijiquan has many more strikes than Wing Chun

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

What “leg skill” do longfist form have ?

1. Foot sweep - in Maifu Quan road 1 and Maifu Quan road 2,
2. Front cut - in Tan Tui road #4.

The number is limited.

Leg skill includes front cut, slant cut, inner hook, outer hook, sickle hook, break, horseback kick, leg lift, leg twist, spring, shin bite, sweep, scoop, sticky lift, knee lift, leg seize, ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

You think "External" means "brute force"?

By definition, "brute" can mean "absence of reasoning or intelligence".

So surely, you don't think every External martial art is absent of reasoning or intelligence?

This remind me that when I jointed in my long fist informal class in high school, there were 2 brothers who also had Taiji training before. When they trained long fist, they refuse to

- punch with straight arm.
- move with full speed.
- sweet in training.

 

[Xue Sheng99]

1. Foot sweep - in Maifu Quan road 1 and Maifu Quan road 2,
2. Front cut - in Tan Tui road #4.

The number is limited.

Leg skill includes front cut, slant cut, inner hook, outer hook, sickle hook, break, horseback kick, leg lift, leg twist, spring, shin bite, sweep, scoop, sticky lift, knee lift, leg seize, ...

Here we go sgain… does taijiquan have leg work? Yes, Tung Ying Chieh’s fast form has a, i guess you would call a hook sweep. Wu style repulse monkey is a sweep with a rather hard take down. Diagonal flying is a kind of trip. But not knowing your terminology, i could not tell you if it has all in your list or not. But then there are others, but why list them… wait a few days and you’ll be right back saying the same thing again… and without going further, you already know my opinion of your knowledge of taijiquan…. Have a nice day

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

Here we go sgain… does taijiquan have leg work? Yes, Tung Ying Chieh’s fast form has a, i guess you would call a hook sweep. Wu style repulse monkey is a sweep with a rather hard take down. Diagonal flying is a kind of trip. But not knowing your terminology, i could not tell you if it has all in your list or not. But then there are others, but why list them… wait a few days and you’ll be right back saying the same thing again… and without going further, you already know my opinion of your knowledge of taijiquan…. Have a nice day

Everybody loves these dead horses… wait was that guy a Photon?

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

Everybody loves these dead horses… wait was that guy a Photon?

As long as people keep saying "internal" is superior to external, this argument will continue for another 1000 years.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Taiji isn't necessarily 'internal'. There are lots of people who practice taiji without a clue about the internal foundation upon which it's based - as has been borne out in numerous online discussions. Practicing form 1000s of times or doing line drills and other busy work doesn't necessarily impart internal method or skill.

Form(s) practice isn't even really required in order to practice internal method. I've had taiji study groups explore internal method in things they do every day that have nothing to do with taiji form, but still contain the 8 Gates and Five Steps - raking, mopping, shoveling snow, pitching hay, sweeping a floor, sawing and planing wood etc...

24, 37, 48, 108, it makes no difference. If the principles and methods are understood, there's no such thing as an incomplete form, as long as the 'form' is also understood.

 

[windwalker099106]

As long as people keep saying "internal" is superior to external, this argument will continue for another 1000 years.

Feel free to post the post that mentioned this on this thread .