If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have “Missing Movements”?

[isshinryuronin]

pure karateka, which is a purely external art.

I disagree, having recognized the internal component in my post. I just see it not being as separated from the external as in CMA.

Many people do not believe in parthenogenesis

I am a believer, having minored in zoology I know it is not rare in some species of insects and a few fish and amphibians. I was not aware it also occurred among reptilians as well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

It’s odd that you don’t care or believe in it yet you always come into these discussions to ask the same questions that you apparently already know the answers to…

Because nobody ever wants to give a straight forward and honest answer on this question. I believe the more that we can talk about this subject, the more chance that we can bring "internal" back to the combat reality (from push to kick/punch/lock/throw).

If we can just bring 1 Taiji person to have interest to train kick/punch/lock/throw, we may help the Taiji system back to combat reality big time.

For external to challenge "internal" is always the CMA tradition. When GM Han Ching-Tang (韓慶堂) was in Central Guoshu Institute, he challenged Yang Chengfu (杨澄甫) and was stopped by the head of that Institute Zhang Zhijiang (张之江). GM Han wanted to know how Yang Chengfu might deal with his fast punches and kicks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

a pure karateka, which is a purely external art.

All MA systems should address body unification. A MA system that frozen the body and only move the arms is very rare. IMO, as long as the issue of body unification is addressed, the internal training is there.

It's so funny that I learn how to punch by putting arms behind my back was from my long fist system and not from my Taiji, XingYi, or Bagua system.

 

[QuantumKitty]

Because nobody ever wants to give a straight forward and honest answer on this question. I believe the more that we can talk about this subject, the more chance that we can bring "internal" back to the combat reality.

If we can just bring 1 Taiji person to have interest to train kick/punch/lock/throw, we may help the Taiji system back to combat reality big time.

For external to challenge "internal" is always the CMA tradition. When GM Han Ching-Tang (韓慶堂) was in Central Guoshu Institute, he challenged Yang Chengfu (杨澄甫) and was stopped by the head of that Institute Zhang Zhijiang (张之江). GM Han wanted to know how Yang Chengfu might deal with his fast punches and kicks.

The funny thing about the community of Taijiquan is when they go:

1. "Internal" is superior to "External".
2. Taijiquan needs an "External" martial art for it to work. Taijiquan is the best "Complementary" martial art because it's Internal... but lacks External.

Oh, the irony...

The brag about their superiority, but when it comes to actual usage, they come begging to the very ones they feel superior to for help.

One person on the Taijiquan subreddit told me that Taijiquan is the BEST martial art when it comes to "strategy", but the worst when it comes to striking and throwing.

And I'm just confused. How can a single person believe both of those things at the same time? This just feels like a huge cognitive dissonance. They believe they have the best martial art.... if only they had something practical to piggyback on to "apply those Taiji principles".

Personally, I don't agree with any of that. My view of Taijiquan (if we're being loyal to the actual name "Taiji") should be an art that have "Internal + External" Skill. Discussions on "Internal" often leads to an admission that they don't have "External".

 

[Xue Sheng99]

All i have to say, is if trained properly over time, internal goes to external, and external goes to internal, and they end up in the same place…. If trained properly

 

[Xue Sheng99]

One person on the Taijiquan subreddit told me that Taijiquan is the BEST martial art when it comes to "strategy", but the worst when it comes to striking and throwing.

Oh, and one thing here, just a comment about the striking and throwing. I don’t think that person has the slightest idea if what they are talking about. Taijiquan is loaded with shuaijiao, and has multiple strikes… and qunna too. As for the best…. IMO that depends on the practitioner of the specific style, not the style itself

 

[QuantumKitty]

Oh, and one thing here, just a comment about the striking and throwing. I don’t think that person has the slightest idea if what they are talking about. Taijiquan is loaded with shuaijiao, and has multiple strikes… and qunna too. As for the best…. IMO that depends on the practitioner of the specific style, not the style itself

I agree with you.

But when that is brought up, the most common response I find in the Taijiquan community is:

"Oh! Qinna is no big deal. We don't need Qinna. It's not important." or "Qinna is unrealistic to use in fighting."

"Oh! We don't need leg sweeps. The art doesn't need leg sweeps."

I 100% agree with you, but... the response to what you said is usually: "Oh! *nervous laugh* We don't need those things that we don't have."

"Hey look! Isn't it funny how all our of martial arts are the same thing *cough* if you ignore every single thing that we deemed "not important". "

Of course all martial arts are the same... if we just ignore all the differences.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

All MA systems should address body unification. A MA system that frozen the body and only move the arms is very rare. IMO, as long as the issue of body unification is addressed, the internal training is there.

It's so funny that I learn how to punch by putting arms behind my back was from my long fist system and not from my Taiji, XingYi, or Bagua system.

Nobody said anything about freezing the body. I did not mean any disrespect, nor did I disparage anyone or any art. I have respect for karate just as I do for Hung Gar, but they are external. You have all these systems, I wonder how you don’t see the differences? I have a ton of respect for you and your opinions, please don’t mistake me. I similarly respect @isshinryuronin and his training and opinion.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

Because nobody ever wants to give a straight forward and honest answer on this question. I believe the more that we can talk about this subject, the more chance that we can bring "internal" back to the combat reality (from push to kick/punch/lock/throw).

If we can just bring 1 Taiji person to have interest to train kick/punch/lock/throw, we may help the Taiji system back to combat reality big time.

For external to challenge "internal" is always the CMA tradition. When GM Han Ching-Tang (韓慶堂) was in Central Guoshu Institute, he challenged Yang Chengfu (杨澄甫) and was stopped by the head of that Institute Zhang Zhijiang (张之江). GM Han wanted to know how Yang Chengfu might deal with his fast punches and kicks.

My Sigung had nothing nice to say about YCF. He trained with him as a young man. I train both hard and soft and always have. For many years I assumed everyone in CMA trained that way. I get your point. The way I see it, if I can dominate the fight punching and kicking I will do that, if I can dominate the fight by using your momentum and tension to control you, then I will do that.. If neither thing works, I may stab, bludgeon, or shoot, all depending on a million variables. I have to believe that you have so much experience over so many decades that you have, to some degree, normalized the internal aspects of your practice.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

Oh, and one thing here, just a comment about the striking and throwing. I don’t think that person has the slightest idea if what they are talking about. Taijiquan is loaded with shuaijiao, and has multiple strikes… and qunna too. As for the best…. IMO that depends on the practitioner of the specific style, not the style itself

100%!

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

I agree with you.

But when that is brought up, the most common response I find in the Taijiquan community is:

"Oh! Qinna is no big deal. We don't need Qinna. It's not important." or "Qinna is unrealistic to use in fighting."

"Oh! We don't need leg sweeps. The art doesn't need leg sweeps."

I 100% agree with you, but... the response to what you said is usually: "Oh! *nervous laugh* We don't need those things that we don't have."

"Hey look! Isn't it funny how all our of martial arts are the same thing *cough* if you ignore every single thing that we deemed "not important". "

Of course all martial arts are the same... if we just ignore all the differences.

100%!

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

Nobody said anything about freezing the body.

You didn't say that. I said that.

You may still remember the "Enter the Dragon" movie that people trained on the island by standing in horse stance and only punch the arms. That's what I mean "frozen the body and only punch with the arms". IMO, that's the opposite of "body unification".

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

You didn't say that. I said that.

You may still remember the "Enter the Dragon" movie that people trained punches by standing in horse stance. That's what I mean "frozen the body and or punch with the arms". IMO, that's the opposite of "body unification".

Have done both for different reason. Good to know the differences. To freeze the body can teach you not to reach, how to keep body still for structure, and improve your proprioception as a beginner. Not useful for advanced practice, but still has a purpose in instruction. I like to teach why and not just how. This way my student teaches me also.

 

[windwalker099106]

If we can just bring 1 Taiji person to have interest to train kick/punch/lock/throw, we may help the Taiji system back to combat reality big time.

You’re shifting the discussion to a different topic.

The thread isn’t about whether Taiji includes striking or grappling, and it isn’t about proving anything through kick/punch/lock/throw.

The question raised is about training method – how internal development changes expression, and how that relates to the idea of “missing movements” in a form.

“kick/punch/lock/throw,” covers pretty much every category of technique.
The video below shows the full range of applications you’re asking about, already present in the art
nothing is “missing” from the list — just not the subject of this discussion.:

"April 27th, 2007. 2-28 Peace Park Taipei, Taiwan. Our master is Jeng Shean Chih (Zheng Xian Qi). His master is Huang Sheng Shyan.The applications in this video were performed on me by my senior classmate, Huang Jeng Bin.His website is About – Master Richard Huang

 

[isshinryuronin]

I learn how to punch by putting arms behind my back

Excellent! .

 

[Xue Sheng99]

I agree with you.

But when that is brought up, the most common response I find in the Taijiquan community is:

"Oh! Qinna is no big deal. We don't need Qinna. It's not important." or "Qinna is unrealistic to use in fighting."

"Oh! We don't need leg sweeps. The art doesn't need leg sweeps."

I 100% agree with you, but... the response to what you said is usually: "Oh! *nervous laugh* We don't need those things that we don't have."

"Hey look! Isn't it funny how all our of martial arts are the same thing *cough* if you ignore every single thing that we deemed "not important". "

Of course all martial arts are the same... if we just ignore all the differences.

Been involved with taijiquan for over 30 years… and…. Sadly…you are right. I’ve heard it all. Even got the egotistical response of superiority on more than one occasion.

Had a guy I was working with on a two person form, and he was absolutely awful. Re was sloppy and uncommitted in every form. I told him what he should be doing, because the way he was doing this would get him hurt in application or a fight. He stopped, look at me in shock at my audacity, and said, rather arrogantly, “I don’t DO martial arts, I DO taijiquan” and stormed off

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

You’re shifting the discussion to a different topic.

I didn't shift the discussion.

In post 7, I said:

When you train Taiji "採 pull to the right" and "挒 pull to the left", you will feel that something is missing there. What's the missing part? The missing part is the leg skill. When you pull your opponent to your right, if you use your right foot to block his leading leg knee, you can take him down effortless. Why that kind of leg skill doesn't exist in the original Taiji form? I can only say it might be taken out by some "Taiji for health" people in our previous generation, or the generation before that.

I believe the subject for this thread is "How can a form have missing movements?" I said the "leg skill" for "採 pull to the right" and "挒 pull to the left" is missing in the Taiji form.

You then respond me with a video. In your video, the leg skill is still missing. The person applied "挒 pull to the left" without using any leg skill (0.20 - 0.22 and 1.12 - 1.14).

Your video just further prove that not only leg skill is missing in the Taiji form, Leg skill is also missing in the Taiji application.

The leg skill is missing in the Taiji form. This is a fact. No "internal" training can fix that missing training issue.

 

[windwalker099106]

The leg skill is missing in the Taiji form. This is a fact. No "internal" training can fix that missing training issue.

No, it’s not a fact.

Many Taiji lines teach leg methods — sweeps, reaps, jams, traps, thigh bumps, and so on. They simply aren’t spelled out directly in the form, the same way most CMA forms don’t list every throw, lock, or counter found in their systems.

The only “fact” here is that Taiji doesn’t include the specific leg method you want to see.
That’s a preference, not evidence of something missing.

Your long-standing bias against Taiji is well known across many threads. Sometimes the points are interesting, in this case it adds nothing to the actual topic and only pulls the discussion off track.

If that’s what you want to focus on, it would be better to start your own thread.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

No, it’s not a fact.

Many Taiji lines teach leg methods — sweeps, reaps, jams, traps, thigh bumps, and so on.

I try to stay in your thread subject. Your thread talks about missing movements in form, not missing movements in training.

Your long-standing bias against Taiji is well known across many threads.

When I say that

- long fist form has no ground skill.
- Chinese wrestling form has no kick and punch.

I'm sure my long fist teacher and my Chinese wrestling teacher will both say, "I agree with you."

Why should I treat "Taiji form has no leg skill" differently?

 

[QuantumKitty]

I didn't shift the discussion.

In post 7, I said:

When you train Taiji "採 pull to the right" and "挒 pull to the left", you will feel that something is missing there. What's the missing part? The missing part is the leg skill. When you pull your opponent to your right, if you use your right foot to block his leading leg knee, you can take him down effortless. Why that kind of leg skill doesn't exist in the original Taiji form? I can only say it might be taken out by some "Taiji for health" people in our previous generation, or the generation before that.

I said the "leg skill" for "採 pull to the right" and "挒 pull to the left" is missing in the Taiji form. You then respond me with a video. In your video, the leg skill is still missing. The person applied "採 pull to the right" and "挒 pull to the left" without using any leg skill (0.20 - 0.22 and 1.12 - 1.14).

Your video just further prove that not only leg skill is missing in the Taiji form, Leg skill is also missing in the Taiji application.

The leg skill is missing in the Taiji form. This is a fact. No "internal" training can fix that missing training issue.

When you mentioned Chang Dongsheng saying "Yang has no legs", that is something a Taijiquan teacher said as well, but the meaning is probably different than what you and Chang Dongsheng meant.

What the Taijiquan teacher largely meant (as it pertains to Taijiquan) is lack of "root".

For example, here is an example of a 38 year Yang disciple on the left pushing a 5 year Chen practitioner on the right.

We can say the guy on the left is lacking, but that does go to show how a few decades under a famous school doesn't mean much.

Replace the the guy on the right with the green-shirt guy in the application video, and he'd be jumping back.

I'm sure you have your own thoughts on how to deal with pushes, but from a Taijiquan perspective, a lot of pushes in demonstrations (not all of them) can just be easily negated with strong leg foundation/root + a little something else.