If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have “Missing Movements”?

[Same Trick51]

1. Foot sweep - in Maifu Quan road 1 and Maifu Quan road 2,
2. Front cut - in Tan Tui road #4.


,

How then comes it you can’t see the leg skill in taiji form ? It’s kind of long fist related

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

How then comes it you can’t see the leg skill in taiji form ? It’s kind of long fist related

In one short sentence, you have said everything that I have tried to say in all my posts.

The disagreement between OP and I is:

- OP believes power generation is the only grammar.
- I believe power generation is only part of the grammar, combat principle/straight are also the grammar.

Examples that I give for combat principle/strategy are:

1. 跪 bend your knee back, or
2. 盘 swing your leg side way, or
3. 抽 pull your lower leg back, or
4. 过 use outside crescent kick to escape,

1,2,3,4 are used for dealing with different directions of leg attack. Unless you train all 4 different principles, you can't deal with all different direction leg attacks.

If my leg skill is a strong root, your 4 leg skills might not pass me in any case, and get you in trouble for trying…

 

[QuantumKitty]

What does Gung fu mean to you? Maybe you misunderstand me, skilled hard work is just that. That’s two hard working people. The hard working person you are today, and the one you aspire to be tomorrow. This is what makes a skilled practitioner, whether they be dishwasher or martial artist.

That's true. Gongfu does refer to skill achieve through time and hard work.

However, I hope it's obvious that being skilled at one thing does not equate to being skilled at something else, which may not be what you were implying.

For instance, being skilled at mopping the floor is not a legit vehicle to learn Taijiquan, nor is it a useful replacement for the form or the traditional curriculum that has been passed down for hundreds of years.

Had that been the case, there would have been no need for tradition. The whole point of tradition is to stand on the shoulders of giants. So... tossing that giant out the window is not exactly a good starting point.

Part of the issue with the conversation in the thread has also been a lack of definition on what "Internal" even means. Lack of consensus in definitions is a huge root cause of disagreements on this subject.

Personally, my bias (as it relates to my lineage) use the term "Internal" most frequently when it comes to a higher ratio of body-core to limb connection.

For example, if you think of a shitty Wing Chun punch, it's very localized, just arm power. That... is what my social circle would call "External".

By this definition, "External" does not mean "brute force". It just means... the ratio heavily favors the extremities of the body.

And "Internal" relates to a lot of connection that more heavily favors the torso: Dantian, Kua, Chest, Spine, Ribs, etc...

However, when I say that an art should be both Internal and External, by this definition (and I am not saying this is the one and only definition), all I really mean is if you have a good body core engine... the extremities shouldn't be limp and floppy. A lot of "External" Chinese martial arts have a lot of fancy, cool hand shapes. Their hands are very hard; they're weapons.

And that is a side I think a lot of Taiji has lost: leg foundation, structure, frame, "hand gongfu", hardness, etc... Although... I don't think they have much of the torso stuff (Shen Fa/Body Method) either.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

If my leg skill is a strong root, your 4 leg skills might not pass me in any case, and get you in trouble for trying…

These types of tactics talk is just blather. The plan should be to train often and be in good shape.

 

[Wing Woo Gar41]

That's true. Gongfu does refer to skill achieve through time and hard work.

However, I hope it's obvious that being skilled at one thing does not equate to being skilled at something else, which may not be what you were implying.

For instance, being skilled at mopping the floor is not a legit vehicle to learn Taijiquan, nor is it a useful replacement for the form or the traditional curriculum that has been passed down for hundreds of years.

Had that been the case, there would have been no need for tradition. The whole point of tradition is to stand on the shoulders of giants. So... tossing that giant out the window is not exactly a good starting point.

Part of the issue with the conversation in the thread has also been a lack of definition on what "Internal" even means. Lack of consensus in definitions is a huge root cause of disagreements on this subject.

Personally, my bias (as it relates to my lineage) use the term "Internal" most frequently when it comes to a higher ratio of body-core to limb connection.

For example, if you think of a shitty Wing Chun punch, it's very localized, just arm power. That... is what my social circle would call "External".

By this definition, "External" does not mean "brute force". It just means... the ratio heavily favors the extremities of the body.

And "Internal" relates to a lot of connection that more heavily favors the torso: Dantian, Kua, Chest, Spine, Ribs, etc...

However, when I say that an art should be both Internal and External, by this definition (and I am not saying this is the one and only definition), all I really mean is if you have a good body core engine... the extremities shouldn't be limp and floppy. A lot of "External" Chinese martial arts have a lot of fancy, cool hand shapes. Their hands are very hard; they're weapons.

And that is a side I think a lot of Taiji has lost: leg foundation, structure, frame, "hand gongfu", hardness, etc...

I don’t think we are in any disagreement here.

 

[Same Trick51]

As long as people keep saying "internal" is superior to external, this argument will continue for another 1000 years.

Has that been claimed in the thread ?

 

[QuantumKitty]

“If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have ‘Missing Movements’?”

The thread isn’t about replacing technique with philosophy.
It’s about how internal development changes expression — and why not every application is spelled out literally in the choreography of a form, nor does every outward expression necessarily reflect the internal principles that make it functional.

Just as a grammar book doesn’t list every possible sentence,
that doesn’t mean the language is “missing sentences.”

Taiji was originally taught — and still is by some teachers — through single movements to establish the “grammar” of the art.
Only later are those elements combined into “syntax” so one can truly converse.

A Taiji form teaches method, structure, and internal organization.
It has never been an exhaustive list of techniques.

"why not every application is spelled out literally in the choreography of a form"

Part of it is that applications are shown by the teacher. If they show it, it becomes obvious.

The other part is that if a martial application is a "sentence", then the form is a lexicon for applications.

So I agree that the form isn't trying to list every "sentence", but someone who is really good can formulate their own sentences by mixing and matching different words (Jin) from the form.

And ultimately, not all forms are equal. Two forms don't necessarily contain the same "Jin".

The lexicon is not the same. There can be different toolboxes.

There is a lot of nuance to differences of "expression" that internal development does not address.

An example of a little nuance (that might seem trivial) is that a lot of Yang style likes to stick out their thumbs which, from the perspective of my lineage, is a vulnerability in Tuishou because the thumb can be caught. Thus, our own hands have the thumbs not stuck out.

There are lots and lots of tiny little details like that that... doesn't fall under the topic of "missing movement" but rather differences in details that have practical consequences.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

How then comes it you can’t see the leg skill in taiji form ? It’s kind of long fist related

There are about 20 different leg skills. To have 1 or 2 only meet 5% or 10% leg skill requirement.

At 1.13, you can see "foot sweep" in the form. Can you find any Taiji form that also have "foot sweep"?

At 0.43 and 0.47, you can see "front cut - hand push forward, leg kick back" in the form. Can you find any Taiji form that also have "front cut"?

 

[Same Trick51]

That is true; this is part of a trick involving ruining the push as well.

But it's also a combination with the root. It's multiple ways to deal with a push done together.

But if you take someone with no root attempting this trick, it won't work too well.

And if a mere trick can negate a push so easily, that only furthers the argument of why pushing shouldn't be an art's "signature move".

The situation is clearly staged for the sake of showing the trick

 

[QuantumKitty]

The situation is clearly staged for the sake of showing the trick

Actually, this is objectively false.

That gif is actually part of a longer video where the two people just met each other. The cameraman thought each of them were good, so he was curious what would happen if they went against each other. Don't worry, that exchange wasn't just him pushing the other like that. That was among the few brief instances where that happened.

Neither side had any obligation to make the other side look good. It ended up being very one-sided.

Like... it would be against the teacher/judge's interest to be.... humiliated by some random nobody right before the tournament even started.

 

[Marsha Larts]

For instance, being skilled at mopping the floor is not a legit vehicle to learn Taijiquan, nor is it a useful replacement for the form or the traditional curriculum that has been passed down for hundreds of years.

Replacing which form? 24? 37? 108?

tjq (the boxing method) can't be learned from practicing form - even if you practiced for 30 years. It aint like the 'traditional curriculum' is any kind of guarantee that someone will have the chuan.

Mopping - ward-off, roll back, press and push - pull-down, elbow, shoulder and split - advance, retreat, look left, gaze right, central equilibrium

Different types of mops, different ways to clean and fight with them.

The study groups I mentioned weren't pretending to replace taiji with anything. The interest that some have in taiji's presence outside of formal, 'traditional' iterations guides awareness of taiji as a living, civil art beyond the obsession some have with so-called 'combat' - until it's time to lay some mop on a fool.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

Has that been claimed in the thread ?

Whenever someone mentions the term "internal", I just feel like to address the "combat reality".

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

If my leg skill is a strong root, your 4 leg skills might not pass me in any case, and get you in trouble for trying…

Those 4 legs skills are used to escape your leg skill attack which has nothing to do with your strong rooting.

MA is like to find the right key to open the right lock. There exists no master key that can open all locks.

1. 跪 bend your knee back:

3. 抽 pull your lower leg back:

 

[QuantumKitty]

Replacing which form? 24? 37? 108?

tjq (the boxing method) can't be learned from practicing form - even if you practiced for 30 years. It aint like the 'traditional curriculum' is any kind of guarantee that someone will have the chuan.

Mopping - ward-off, roll back, press and push - pull-down, elbow, shoulder and split - advance, retreat, look left, gaze right, central equilibrium

Different types of mops, different ways to clean and fight with them.

The study groups I mentioned weren't pretending to replace taiji with anything. The interest taiji's presence outside of formal, 'traditional' iterations guides awareness of taiji as a living, civil art beyond the obsession some have with so-called 'combat' - until it's time to lay some mop on a fool.

That's kind of true.

Not all forms are equal. Many forms are inherently shallow due to loss of details.

And even if the form had depths, merely practicing the form is not how one becomes good martially.

However..., the form is not the end-all-be-all to "traditional curriculum".

Tuishou and Sanshou are also traditional aspects of Taijiquan, and it requires a teacher to bridge the form to those paradigms.

Anyone who think Tuishou is only a beginner-level sensitivity training tool doesn't know traditional Tuishou methods.

There is still a need for a teacher to showcase usages, not for memorization but for exposing students to a lot of "data".

However, a lot of applications shown online tends to lack technical details.

Ultimately, not everyone is fortunate enough to have a teacher that:

1. Teaches a form that has depth and details
2. Teaches how to bridge the form with Tuishou and Sanshou
3. Teaches the nuances and technical details on how to make things work.
4. Coaches two students in sparring and pointing out missed opportunities and mistakes.

 

[Same Trick51]

An example of a little nuance (that might seem trivial) is that a lot of Yang style likes to stick out their thumbs which, from the perspective of my lineage, is a vulnerability in Tuishou because the thumb can be caught. Thus, our own hands have the thumbs not stuck out.

There are lots and lots of tiny little details like that that... doesn't fall under the topic of "missing movement" but rather differences in details that have practical consequences.

Your style keep thumbs in because the risk of them getting grabbed in the game of tuishou??

 

[Same Trick51]

Actually, this is objectively false.

That gif is actually part of a longer video where the two people just met each other. The cameraman thought each of them were good, so he was curious what would happen if they went against each other. Don't worry, that exchange wasn't just him pushing the other like that. That was among the few brief instances where that happened.

Neither side had any obligation to make the other side look good. It ended up being very one-sided.

Like... it would be against the teacher/judge's interest to be.... humiliated by some random nobody right before the tournament even started.

It’s clearly not a free exchange, it’s staged, as in “you push me like this specific way and try to unbalance me”

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

"why not every application is spelled out literally in the choreography of a form"

It's easier to collect all the words in a dictionary. It's much harder to arrange all your words to have sequential meaning.

I have tried to find any MA form that the 1st move set up the 2nd move, the 2nd move set up the 3rd move, ... So far, I haven't found any MA form that was created this way yet. I tried to create one form like this. I didn't complete my task.

Here is one 24 moves form that I tried to create many years ago. After the 24th move that I pick my opponent off the ground, the form stops there.

I do think to create such form can be a challenge on your MA knowledge. It can be a good test for your combat understanding.

1. 扣 Knee seizing (KOU) N - You grab your opponent's right leading leg.
2. 踢Forward kick (TI) N - Your opponent steps back, you sweep his left leg.
3. 合Inner hook (HE) N - Your opponent steps back again, you hook his right leg.
4. 挽 Send forward (WAN) S - ...
5. 崩Cracking (BENG) N
6. 管 Control (GUAN) N
7. 刀Inner sickle (DAO) N
8. 揣Overhead (CHUAI)) S
9. 撞Trunk hitting (ZHUANG) N
10. 靠Advance squeeze (KAO) W
11. 切Front cut (QIE) N
12. 挑Hooking kick (TIAO) S
13. 掛Inner heel sweep (GUA) S
14. 蹩Block (BIE) – N
15. 纏Twist (CHAN), S
16. 摟 Outer Hook (LOU) S
17. 搵Waist Lift (WEN), N
18. 掰 Split (BAI) S
19. 撿Foot picking (JIAN) N
20. 彈Spring (TAN) W N
21. 掏Inner knee seizing (TAO) S
22. 裏Back inner hook (LI) E
23. 捆 Tie (KUN) W
24. 抱 Embrace (BAO) E

 

[Xue Sheng99]

Can you find any Taiji form that also have "foot sweep"?

You mean OTHER than the examples I have posted here ad nausium to your similar statements

 

[QuantumKitty]

Your style keep thumbs in because the risk of them getting grabbed in the game of tuishou??

Yeah, but just so we're clear, I'm not talking about thumb tucked into the palm.

Old-school Taijiquan does not have "rules" in usage (Legal vs Illegal). Who says a martial art isn't allowed to grab fingers - the very thing banned in combat sports? There are Qinna methods that involves manipulating the opponent's thumb. At the right situation, you can grab the thumb like a joystick and control it in a certain way relative to their own structure, and the rest of the opponent collapses.

Vulnerability to Qinna is not the only reason though. In my line, the hands often have a piercing/raking energy to them. Who says a martial art isn't allowed to rake with their fingers? Remember how I said a lot of Chinese martial arts have fancy hand shapes? Although this particular shape isn't fancy, it has stuff like raking and piercing energy with the fingers, practiced all over the place in the form, so having the thumb oriented like the rest of the fingers help with that.

The thing with Tuishou is that traditionally, we should be cognizant of other contexts. There are many things that, while allowed in a competition ruleset, is vulnerable to striking, headbutting, etc... Once you impose rules, people are no longer cognizant of what they're vulnerable to anymore.

 

[QuantumKitty]

It’s clearly not a free exchange, it’s staged, as in “you push me like this specific way and try to unbalance me”

I can see why you think that.

But I think you're being misled by the fact that I took a short snippet out of context. That isn't what the entire exchange looked like. It wasn't just a dude pushing like that for 10 minutes straight.

I'm actually the guy on the right doing the "trick", and I did think to myself: "Huh... I'm not used to being pushed at my armpits..."

I sure as hell did not tell him to hold my armpits to push me. I'm more used to being pushed at the chest.

But Tuishou competitors generally fall under two "styles":

1. The Charge like a bull style - just ram in and push. So the two-hand push is VERY normal for them to do. For many, that is their bread and butter.
2. Hand-Chaser - just aimlessly chasing the opponent's hands.

Contrary to the gif, my opponent was actually a "hand-chaser". He mostly played at the forearms...

And since I can punish both "styles", that is why that the tournament looked like a joke to me. Competitors generally fall under one of those two "styles".

Most Tuishou practitioners are very easy to troll.