If Internal Skill Is Internal, How Can a Form Have “Missing Movements”?

[windwalker099106]

I can see why you think that.

But I think you're being misled by the fact that I took a short snippet out of context. That isn't what the entire exchange looked like. It wasn't just a dude pushing like that for 10 minutes straight.

I'm actually the guy on the right doing the "trick", and I did think to myself: "Huh... I'm not used to being pushed at my armpits..."

I sure as hell did not tell him to hold my armpits to push me. I'm more used to being pushed at the chest.

But Tuishou competitors generally fall under two "styles":

1. The Charge like a bull style - just ram in and push. So the two-hand push is VERY normal for them to do. For many, that is their bread and butter.
2. Hand-Chaser - just aimlessly chasing the opponent's hands.

Contrary to the gif, my opponent was actually a "hand-chaser". He mostly played at the forearms...

Thanks for posting some of your work.

You mentioned the exchange lasted around 10 minutes, yet only a few seconds were posted. Makes me curious — what was happening during the rest of it? Ten minutes is a long time in that format.

The gif shows what. looks to be a compliant two-hand push, not someone actually giving you the style of resistance you say you were punishing.

Why some may have commented on this, having after viewing...

And since I can punish both "styles", that is why that the tournament looked like a joke to me. Competitors generally fall under one of those two "styles".

Don’t know about “punishing” — not really my approach with the people I train with.
I prefer working with those who compete offline. A good way to test my work in the taiji world, it lets them feel a different outlook and method.

In Taiwan they train very hard for their events. Some of them found what I do interesting, but they also realized it would mean reworking a lot of their training, most stick with what they already know. That’s understandable — competition their focus. , switching methods not easy.

And yes, people who question the competitive formats sometimes change their views after they understand those formats aren’t actually based on Taiji principles.

Henry Wang a good example of this

His competitive drive and dedication led him to compete regularly in t’ai chi push hands tournaments in Taiwan. By age 25, he had won first place in several national championships and continued winning international competitions for several years.

The Problem with Winning
Despite his tournament success, Master Wang grew increasingly frustrated. A few years after reaching the peak of competitive achievement, he willingly stepped away from competition.

Driven by a deeper quest to discover the meaning of the taiji classics and their promise of “4 ounces to move a thousand pounds”. Each victory proved he was missing something—brute strength shouldn’t be required if the classics were right.

The Turning Point
Meeting Grandmaster Huang of Malaysia changed everything.

For the first time, Master Wang witnessed true internal power—soft, effortless, devastatingly effective. Under Huang’s guidance, he began the difficult process of abandoning his strength-based approach."

 

[Marsha Larts]

The gif shows what. looks to be a compliant two-hand push, not someone actually giving you the style of resistance you say you were punishing.

Why some may have commented on this, having after viewing...

Size and weight disparity is pretty drastic. Lifting both elbows while the other traps his hands. It's a gimme

 

[windwalker099106]

Size and weight disparity is pretty drastic. Lifting both elbows while the other traps his hands. It's a gimme

Which actually shows one of the key differences between internal and external approaches.
If both people use external mechanics, then size, weight, and strength can become the deciding factors — especially when skill levels are similar. When the “engine” is the same, a big physical disparity is not something skill can easily overcome if at all.


Internal method doesn’t erase size or weight, but it changes how force is organized.
That’s why traditional lines emphasized timing, structure, alignment, sticking, borrowing, and redirection — tools meant to narrow physical gaps at close range. They’re not magic, but they reduce the advantage of raw mass or strength.

When two people who actually train internal method meet, the exchange often looks almost “boring” from the outside. There’s very little big movement — most of the work is structural and pressure-based. From an external lens it looks like nothing is happening, even though everything is happening inside the touch.

 

[QuantumKitty]

I wonder if my puffy jacket made me look thicker than I actually am. Without the jacket, I think (my torso at least) appears thinner than my opponent. I also wonder if I misheard him or something, but I recall him telling me he was 250 lbs., but he doesn't look it. And I am lighter than that, but I am taller than him.

I think our weights are flipped where a lot of my weight are in my legs, and a lot of his weight is in his torso. I am bottom-heavy, and he's top-heavy.

This exchange is very much at a play level where he can do whatever the hell he wants.

If you could see his facial expression, he has like a thinking/confused face.

My lineage traces to Chen Yu:

And you will probably see the similarities in approaches here at the beginning.

I never instructed my opponent to do anything. He could do whatever he wanted. This situation just presented itself to me. I didn't plan on this.

But Yang style loves their pushes..., so I have a lot of experience using this against them.

Controlling the elbow is very typical in what I learn, and I don't think I've met any Yang style (so far) that even tried to place their hand on my elbow. In my experience, the ones I've met seem very uninterested in joints. So although Marsha calls this a "gimme", I am just wondering: "Huh... why don't they do this too? It works quite well." Everything they do is a "gimme".

Most of what happened in the exchange is not what you see here. I used a different trick to troll him at the forearm contact points.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

Feel free to post the post that mentioned this on this thread .

Which actually shows one of the key differences between internal and external approaches.
If both people use external mechanics, then size, weight, and strength can become the deciding factors — especially when skill levels are similar. When the “engine” is the same, a big physical disparity is not something skill can easily overcome if at all.

Internal method doesn’t erase size or weight, but it changes how force is organized.
That’s why traditional lines emphasized timing, structure, alignment, sticking, borrowing, and redirection — tools meant to narrow physical gaps at close range. They’re not magic, but they reduce the advantage of raw mass or strength.

This is one good example that you show "internal" is superior to external. When you say "raw mass or strength", you are not friendly to external.

Timing, structure, alignment, sticking, borrowing, and redirection are all heavily used in wrestling. The only different is in wrestling, you give and then you take. In Taiji PH, you don't give as much.

The general CMA guideline such as "It's better to be on the top than to be on the bottom. It's better to stay inside than to stay outside" should apply to both Taiji PH and wrestling.

You try to say there is a big difference between "internal" and external. I try to say there is not much difference at all.

 

[windwalker099106]

This is one good example that you show "internal" is superior to external.

Timing, structure, alignment, sticking, borrowing, and redirection are heavily used in wrestling. The only different is in wrestling, you give and then take. In Taiji PH, you don't give as much.

An explanation of differences
Describing how internal organizes force isn’t the same as claiming it’s “better.”
Nor an example of superiority —

It’s different. For some people that difference feels useful or gives them an advantage, the same way any art has its own specialty. Otherwise there’d be no reason to train it.

MMA has done a lot to move past style labels and focus on individual functional ability — which is great for those interested in combative sports. But the point in this thread is that different training engines create different kinds of development, and those differences lead to different strategies. That isn’t “better or worse,” just different paths.

If someone wants to turn that into a superiority argument, that’s their projection, not what I wrote.

 

[Marsha Larts]

You try to say there is a big difference between "internal" and external. I try to say there is not much difference at all.

One example you were given of the differences between internal and external is the 2 different methods of generating power in Yang's taiji and Wu/Hao's taiji respectively, and how they each differ from one another, but both differ from your method of generating power via "compress and release".

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

One example you were given of the differences between internal and external is the 2 different methods of generating power in Yang's taiji and Wu/Hao's taiji respectively, and how they each differ from one another, but both differ from your method of generating power via "compress and release".

Compress and release are physical science. It has nothing to do with "internal" or external. Even "internal" still need to follow this physical rule.

Simple example is "back leg bend -> back leg straight".

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

I am envisioning two separate flowing streams - one of "external" water and the other "internal" water. When they join together to form a river (combat) you cannot scoop a bucket of water from it and say which stream that water came from - they cannot be differentiated. Is this close to your meaning?

You assume the "internal" water exist. I believe the "internal" water doesn't exist. From combat point of view, I believe there is a right way of doing thing and there is a wrong way of doing thing. I don't believe there is an "internal" way of doing thing and there is an external way of doing thing. This is why I always put quote around the term "internal" because I don't believe it even exist from the combat point of view (I'm not talking about spiritual and mental aspects here).

A non-MA scholar who invented the term "internal" 356 years ago so people can argue about it for the past 356 years and also for the next 1000 years.

The term "neijia" refers to the internal martial arts of China, which emphasize spiritual and mental aspects rather than physical strength. The distinction between internal and external martial arts was first articulated in 1669 by Huang Zongxi in his epitaph for Wang Zhengnan.

 

[windwalker099106]

You assume the "internal" water exist. I believe the "internal" water doesn't exist. From combat point of view, I believe there is a right way of doing thing and there is a wrong way of doing thing. I don't believe there is an "internal" way of doing thing and there is an external way of doing thing. This is why I always put quote around the term "internal" because I don't believe it even exist from the combat point of view (I'm not talking about spiritual and mental aspects here).

You’re assuming the term creates the method.
The method existed long before the label.

Internal and external were used in martial, medical, and Daoist texts well before Huang Zongxi’s poem. Different engines of development produced different expressions — that’s all the distinction refers to.

You may not believe in the category, the training methods and results exist with or without the label.
They produce demonstrable results whether someone accepts them, has felt them, or can do them or not.

Not the topic of the thread.

The question is:

“If internal skill is internal, how can a form have ‘missing movements’?”

That question only makes sense if one acknowledges internal skill in the first place.
If someone rejects the premise entirely, then it’s a rhetorical exercise for them, and there’s no real discussion to be had.

 

[isshinryuronin]

This is why I always put quote around the term "internal" because I don't believe it even exist from the combat point of view (I'm not talking about spiritual and mental aspects here).

This accurately describes my thinking as well. There is no internal combat - it's kinetic (external). Whatever "internal" qualities exist are transmuted into the physical execution, no longer existing on its own. As I've said several times in the past, I don't talk much about internal/external, hard/soft - it's all just fighting.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

“If internal skill is internal, how can a form have ‘missing movements’?”

That question only makes sense if one acknowledges internal skill in the first place.
If someone rejects the premise entirely, then it’s a rhetorical exercise for them, and there’s no real discussion to be had.

But you can't talk about "internal" without talking about combat. "Internal" still have to meet all "combat" requirement. The "missing movements" can be different if you include "combat".

What's "combat"? Combat is to solve problems that your opponent gives to you (not the problems that you are interested to solve).

But the point in this thread is that different training engines create different kinds of development, and those differences lead to different strategies.

Here you let "training engines" to dominate later development and strategies used. But if you let "combat (problem solving)" to dominate your future development and strategies, you will get different result.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Compress and release are physical science. It has nothing to do with "internal" or external. Even "internal" still need to follow this physical rule.

You don't believe the human body can generate power via release - compress?

 

[Wing Woo Gar40]

"why not every application is spelled out literally in the choreography of a form"

Part of it is that applications are shown by the teacher. If they show it, it becomes obvious.

The other part is that if a martial application is a "sentence", then the form is a lexicon for applications.

So I agree that the form isn't trying to list every "sentence", but someone who is really good can formulate their own sentences by mixing and matching different words (Jin) from the form.

And ultimately, not all forms are equal. Two forms don't necessarily contain the same "Jin".

The lexicon is not the same. There can be different toolboxes.

There is a lot of nuance to differences of "expression" that internal development does not address.

An example of a little nuance (that might seem trivial) is that a lot of Yang style likes to stick out their thumbs which, from the perspective of my lineage, is a vulnerability in Tuishou because the thumb can be caught. Thus, our own hands have the thumbs not stuck out.

There are lots and lots of tiny little details like that that... doesn't fall under the topic of "missing movement" but rather differences in details that have practical consequences.

Though my tai chi is yang, it is somewhat nuanced. I do indeed keep the thumb during the form, but I am in no way inclined to do that in gung fu practice, nor would I in application or fighting.

 

[Wing Woo Gar40]

Replacing which form? 24? 37? 108?

tjq (the boxing method) can't be learned from practicing form - even if you practiced for 30 years. It aint like the 'traditional curriculum' is any kind of guarantee that someone will have the chuan.

Mopping - ward-off, roll back, press and push - pull-down, elbow, shoulder and split - advance, retreat, look left, gaze right, central equilibrium

Different types of mops, different ways to clean and fight with them.

The study groups I mentioned weren't pretending to replace taiji with anything. The interest that some have in taiji's presence outside of formal, 'traditional' iterations guides awareness of taiji as a living, civil art beyond the obsession some have with so-called 'combat' - until it's time to lay some mop on a fool.

Well said. Same with the dishwasher.

 

[Wing Woo Gar40]

Those 4 legs skills are used to escape your leg skill attack which has nothing to do with your strong rooting.

MA is like to find the right key to open the right lock. There exists no master key that can open all locks.

1. 跪 bend your knee back:

3. 抽 pull your lower leg back:

My root will be my attack when I take your space I will own it with each step, It has everything to do with my rooting. Once I take your space, I will hit you with that root.

Do you see how foolish this argument is? How futile? Ridiculously pointless?

We may as well play a strategy board game to settle the matter, it would be far more entertaining.

 

[Wing Woo Gar40]

Whenever someone mentions the term "internal", I just feel like to address the "combat reality".

You mean, expound on your personal biases. Which is fine, this is a forum after all.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

You don't believe the human body can generate power via release - compress?

IMO, compress is a MUST. Power needs to be generated from:

Back leg bending (compress) -> back leg straight (release).

The power go through back leg heel -> back leg knee -> hip -> spine -> shoulder -> elbow -> hand

Most of the power generation problem is caused by this sequence is broken, such as before your power has reached from your back leg knee to your hip, your arm already starts to move. When you do that, you only punch with your arm and you are not punching with your whole body.

 

[Kung Fu Wang106]

My root will be my attack when I take your space I will own it with each step, It has everything to do with my rooting. Once I take your space, I will hit you with that root.

Do you see how foolish this argument is? How futile? Ridiculously pointless?

We may as well play a strategy board game to settle the matter, it would be far more entertaining.

Sorry! I still don't know what you are talking about here. If you hit me with your rooting then I will need different key (different from those 4 keys) to open your lock. Different problem requires different solution.

 

[Marsha Larts]

IMO, compress is a MUST. Power needs to be generated from:

Back leg bending (compress) -> back leg straight (release).

The power go through back leg heel -> back leg knee -> hip -> spine -> shoulder -> elbow -> hand

Most of the power generation problem is caused by this sequence is broken, such as before your power has reached from your back leg knee to your hip, your arm already starts to move. When you do that, you only punch with your arm and you are not punching with your whole body.

We've already been over this earlier in this thread: Unlock Your Kua : Why Bone Structure Limits Your Range of Motion

Release -> compress is as plain as day in the video I posted.

Enjoy the roundabout. I'm taking the next exit.