How to handle the parents

[Daniel Sullivan]

True but we should clear up one technical point. A Black Belt under 15 years of age is a Poom holder. Not a Dan. It does transfer over but technically thats a true point to make.

Only if they are Kukkiwon. Other orgs handle youth ranks differently.

The only thing that kiddie black belts have to do with this discussion is that it attracts more kids and thus more parents, and thus more difficult parents due to the law of averages.

Otherwise, I do not care about whether or not schools put black pieces of cloth on children. I have voiced my opinion about youth BB's on the youth BB thread.

Daniel

 

[jks9199]

Attention all users:

Please return to the original topic.

jks9199
Sr. Moderator

 

[Twin Fist]

*sigh*

FINE

uh, wut was it again?



KIDDING!

 

[tshadowchaser]

en a parent or small clique of parents need to be babysat because they cannot behave themselves, the school staff is not to blame; they are busy doing what they are supposed to be doing: teaching class. Parents who need to be in some kind of adult daycare are not the responsibility of the dojo staff.

I must disagree
anyone interfering with class is the responsibility of all instructors
If a parent /brother/sister or anyone constantly interfers with class then they should be given the option of stopping their activity, not comeing to class, or takeing their child someone else.
If your only concern is makeing money you do not need to be a martial arts instructor.
If your interested in teaching then teach for for the majority and for the benifit of the students and get rid of the people causeing trouble with in the school

 

[TKD_Father]

I must disagree
anyone interfering with class is the responsibility of all instructors
If a parent /brother/sister or anyone constantly interfers with class then they should be given the option of stopping their activity, not comeing to class, or takeing their child someone else.
If your only concern is makeing money you do not need to be a martial arts instructor.
If your interested in teaching then teach for for the majority and for the benifit of the students and get rid of the people causeing trouble with in the school

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When a parent or small clique of parents need to be babysat because they cannot behave themselves, the school staff is not to blame; they are busy doing what they are supposed to be doing: teaching class. Parents who need to be in some kind of adult daycare are not the responsibility of the dojo staff.

I must disagree
anyone interfering with class is the responsibility of all instructors
If a parent /brother/sister or anyone constantly interfers with class then they should be given the option of stopping their activity, not comeing to class, or takeing their child someone else.
If your only concern is makeing money you do not need to be a martial arts instructor.
If your interested in teaching then teach for for the majority and for the benifit of the students and get rid of the people causeing trouble with in the school

You seem to have taken my comment out of context.

My whole point was that, as you just said in your post,

"If a parent /brother/sister or anyone constantly interfers with class then they should be given the option of stopping their activity, not comeing to class, or takeing their child someone else."

Here is my post in its entirety.

It always looks harsh when it is in black and white print. And it is harsh for a child when the parent, who is supposed to be setting an example, is behaving in a childish manner which ultimately causes the child to suffer.

Generally, things like this go on for a goodly amount of time before coming to a head. Consider that an instructor spends the bulk of his or her time teaching. Interraction with the parents occurs only between classes and at the end of the day when classes are done, at which point, the staff is ready to go home.

When a parent or small clique of parents need to be babysat because they cannot behave themselves, the school staff is not to blame; they are busy doing what they are supposed to be doing: teaching class. Parents who need to be in some kind of adult daycare are not the responsibility of the dojo staff.

And as a parent, I cannot stand parents who behave that way. They take the instructor's time and attention away from the class, which is what I am paying for for my own kids, be it martial arts or a soccor clinic.

Unruly parents are a fact of nearly all school age sports programs, be it soccor, football, or karate class. Terry has what I consider a very large school, so it does not surprise me that he has a clique of them to deal with. Such parents often ruin things for their kids. Like dads who go charging onto the field to actually grab a kid on the other team. Or get into fistfights with other dads because they cannot control their tempers. There are certainly mom equivallents, who try to micromanage every move that an instructor makes because they have the answer to everything, never mind that mom has no background to do so.

And yes, it is harsh because the child suffers for a parent's immature behavior.

My post was a response to TKDfather who felt that Terry's response "seemed harsh". I essentially said that the staff has every right to eject troublemakers. You say that you disagree, yet you then say the same thing.

Nowhere did I say that the staff has no responsibility to address the issue, which is what you seem to be implying (perhsps that is not, but that is what you seem to be saying). TKDfather made a comment to the effect that the situation has gone too far if it gets to a point that a student and parent are being kicked out. That is what I was addressing.

Baby sitting the parents is not the responsibility of the staff. If the parents cannot behave themselves, then it needs to be addressed, and if the parents will not behave then they can go elsewhere.

And what on earth does this...

If your only concern is makeing money you do not need to be a martial arts instructor.

have to do with what I said in my post?

Nowhere in my post did I bring up profitablitly or making money in any fashion. My comment would apply equally to a non profit school or even a school that does not charge.

Even in a commercial school, the instructional staff is not highly paid. Most likely, aside from the owner, they are volunteers. Their reason for being there is to teach a martial art, not to play babysitter to immature adults who misbehave in the waiting room. If the adults cannot behave, then they either need to find another school or leave the building for the duration of the class. That is the point I was making.

If I am misreading your post (certainly a possibility), I apologize. If so, however, please clarify.

Daniel

 

[TKD_Father]

During the evolution of this topic it has come to light that Terry gave this woman every opportunity to comply with his Dojang rules, and she chose to continue to be a bad influence to the other parents.

It is a harsh action to dismiss a child. And prior to Terry's comments regarding what actually transpired, all I had to go on were the comments here which were that some parents moved some shades and a child was asked to never return based on his mother's actions.

Now it's been explained what levels Terry went through with this woman, and I'm in complete agreement that terminating her son's schooling would be the the last resort. It's unfortunate that she forced this decision. I still maintain that a situation shouldn't ever get to this level.

I don't envy Terry's position at all. I'm sure it's something that will stay with him for a long while.

tshadowchaser - I'm in agreement with you that it's the responsibility of the school's owner, instructors, secretary and staff to control the environment of the facility. If there's an unruly parent watching a class it's pretty easy to discreetly pull that parent aside and let them know their actions aren't in the best interest of her child's schooling.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

During the evolution of this topic it has come to light that Terry gave this woman every opportunity to comply with his Dojang rules, and she chose to continue to be a bad influence to the other parents.

This is usually the case when people are finally asked to leave. No instructor takes the removal of a student lightly. If the school is a means of income for the instructor, then that is another factor that makes student ejections a delicate matter, particularly in the current economic climb.

It is a harsh action to dismiss a child. And prior to Terry's comments regarding what actually transpired, all I had to go on were the comments here which were that some parents moved some shades and a child was asked to never return based on his mother's actions.

Now it's been explained what levels Terry went through with this woman, and I'm in complete agreement that terminating her son's schooling would be the the last resort. It's unfortunate that she forced this decision.

I don't envy Terry's position at all. I'm sure it's something that will stay with him for a long while.

tshadowchaser - I'm in agreement with you that it's the responsibility of the school's owner, instructors, secretary and staff to control the environment of the facility. If there's an unruly parent watching a class it's pretty easy to discreetly pull that parent aside and let them know their actions aren't in the best interest of her child's schooling.

Yes, it is the responsibility of the staff to control the environment of the facility. Most issues with parents in the waiting room are simple misunderstandings that are solved with the helping hand of the staff.

But the controling of the environment is not the primary job of the staff. Which is why a continually troublesome parent or student can justifiably be ejected.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

I had a father who kept trying to undermine me so I brought him onto the mat to use him as uke and choked him out, it kept the other parents quiet for quite a while but then I'm just a thug rofl!
We are a club and on Crown property so through both my job and being an instructor I'm in charge and I can actually order the parents off site if I wish, can even arrest them lol! I don't really have any 'bad' parents at the moment though.
I think Terry did all the right things, acted properly and shouldn't worry.

 

[granfire]

I had a father who kept trying to undermine me so I brought him onto the mat to use him as uke and choked him out, it kept the other parents quiet for quite a while but then I'm just a thug rofl!
We are a club and on Crown property so through both my job and being an instructor I'm in charge and I can actually order the parents off site if I wish, can even arrest them lol! I don't really have any 'bad' parents at the moment though.
I think Terry did all the right things, acted properly and shouldn't worry.

AAAHHHH, dream like working conditions! I know over here some Little League Umpires would love to have that kind of power!

 

[Tez3]

AAAHHHH, dream like working conditions! I know over here some Little League Umpires would love to have that kind of power!

LOL! Classes usually run okay but occasionally I get a father in who thinks a woman teaching fighting can't be right so has to question everything I do, in the adult class I've had the same type refuse to spar with me. The only solution frankly is show them I can hurt them, they're squaddies they understand that. Usually though as I said they are fine, sometimes the parents do talk a little loudly so all I have to do is look at them, ( I was taught 'the look' when in training in the RAF lol) once I had to raise my voice and tell them to be quiet ( military people will know that 'voice' lol) it's not shouting though.
Next spring though is going to be hard, just about all our adults and most of the kids dads are off to Ghan. For the kids that's when they start playing up,mums get short tempered and we all have to work harder to try to keep things on an even keel. When the men come back, for a while things are actually worse as everyone tries to settle back into 'normal' life.

 

[elder999]

Interesting way of dealing with customers...

I'm weighing in on this kind of late, but I don't have "customers."

I don't think those words should go together: martial arts instruction and customers.

I rarely accept kids as students, but when I have (mostly so my own kids would have "peers" to interact with and ukes that were more realistic, or they were the kids of adults who were already students, and a few other special exceptions over the years) I've laways had a thorough discussion of rules and expectations with the parents-I even have a printout that goes with the contract.

None of my contracts are for more than 2 ranks, or six months, whichever comes last, and I have promoted students at the end of a contract-kids and adults-and told them that they'd have to find instruction elsewhere, because we were through. I've suspended teens for being rude, and I kicked one mom out of the barn and told her to wait in the car until she could control herself (constantly talking and "coaching" her kids).

This lady didn't meet the expectations of the relationship: if you call it a customer-provider relationship, I think it diminishes what it's supposed to be, and if you allow that kind of thinking, I think it diminshes what a teacher is supposed to be.

That's just me, though-I have a job, and don't have to drum up business-though I might go slightly more commercial as part of my retirement, I'll still be particular about who I allow as a student-never mind who I allow to just "hang around."

Coffee? Meals?? Really? I must be getting old: my mom was sometimes the queen of hoverers, and she'd never have done what that woman did in Oyama Shihan's dojo, and she wasn't afraid of anyone-she just knew when to leave well enough alone, and that her comfort wasn't a priority in that place. In fact, most of the time, she wasn't even around.......

 

[Tez3]

I'm weighing in on this kind of late, but I don't have "customers."

I don't think those words should go together: martial arts instruction and customers.

I rarely accept kids as students, but when I have (mostly so my own kids would have "peers" to interact with and ukes that were more realistic, or they were the kids of adults who were already students, and a few other special exceptions over the years) I've laways had a thorough discussion of rules and expectations with the parents-I even have a printout that goes with the contract.

None of my contracts are for more than 2 ranks, or six months, whichever comes last, and I have promoted students-kids and adults-and told them that they'd have to find instruction elsewhere, because we were through. I've suspended teens for being rude, and I kicked one mom out of the barn and told her to wait in the car until she could control herself (constantly talking and "coaching" her kids).

This lady didn't meet the expectations of the relationship: if you call it a customer-provider relationship, I think it diminishes what it's supposed to be, and if you allow that kind of thinking, I think it diminshes what a teacher is supposed to be.

That's just me, though-I have a job, and don't have to drum up business-though I might go slightly more commercial as part of my retirement, I'll still be particular about who I allow as a student-never mind who I allow to just "hang around."

Coffee? Meals?? Really? I must be getting old: my mom was sometimes the queen of hoverers, and she'd never have done what that woman did in Oyama Shihan's dojo, and she wasn't afraid of anyone-she just knew when to leave well enough alone, and that her comfort wasn't a priority in that place. In fact, most of the time, she wasn't even around.......

Having read this I have to agree, I don't see the people who come into our club as 'customers' and the very reason we teach children is because we are a community and have a relationship with all who come in the door. I doubt I would teach children if I were an instructor anywhere else.
Our teens are in the adults MMA session so tend not to be rude lol!

I put coffee on when we have a grading, we try to make it a special occasion, we don't have many gradings so it's a big thing and if I've come off a night shift I need the coffee!
We have a Christmas party though for the kids again because of the circumstances we live in, it gets everyone together for a bit of fun and relaxation at the end of the year.
Even if we were commercial and we had 'customers' we still have the right to not admit or throw out anyone we didn't want (English law so don't start quoting other laws at me)

As this is the internet (no really?) the temptation to jump in and condemn people is so, well, tempting, and TKD Father you seem to jump in with both feet immediately without waiting to see what's actually transpired. It's too easy to judge sat at the computer and say well I wouldn't have done that or it shouldn't have got that far, remember we weren't there, didn't hear the tone of voice used or see the body language, hadn't had a relationship with the people concerned to make a proper judgement call. I teach children but don't do the belt factory thing, no one will ever get a blackbelt under 16 from us, over 16 they may get a junior one but possibly not. I won't take any blackbelt seriously who's under the age of at least 20 odd and trained for quite a few years. To me whatever a blackbelt choses to do ie points sparring, Olympic sparring etc is fine but they must if necessary be able to fight full contact and full on to save life. I agree with all the things about not fighting if you can, de-escalation etc but push comes to shove a blackbelt must be able to fight. These children with blackbelts can't, it's a simple as that so no blackbelts for them.
Took me nine years to get my belt and I'll likely be a 1st Dan forever, childrens BB devalue the work I put in and others like me. A martial arts school/club even when run commercially is a unque entity, the relationship between instructor and student is something I haven't found anywhere else not even in other sports. Terry is a fine example of the instructor who cares very much about his students, wants the best for them all and will be uncompromising of his high standards, we need people like this in our world. Even the expelled student should learn something, that there are people who keep their word and won't back down from doing the right thing just because someone throws a hissy fit. We need more people with Terry's standards not less.

 

[elder999]

Took me nine years to get my belt and I'll likely be a 1st Dan forever, childrens BB devalue the work I put in and others like me. .

QFT.

Started training when I was 8, started training formally when I was 11. Got my first dan at 16, and, while not the only one, or the youngest, I was somewhat anomalous back in 1976, as I should have been...........separate issue, though.....

 

[Tez3]

I'm all for children training not just in martial arts but sports too. The other concern I have is that these days children are expected to grow up fast and don't spend time as children anymore enjoying playing, having no responsibilities ( don't they come quick enough as it is?) learning and generally being children. Having a BB means responsibilites and being a certain standard, should we inflict this on young children? Isn't it rather cruel to not let them stay lower grades for a while, having fun exploring thier martial arts, working stuff out for themselves? Why burden them with a blackbelt, in my mind it's not a reward for children, it's for the parents. When our kids spar they don't actually care who wins or loses, winning is a momentary pleasure and losing a momentary sorrow, they enjoy the physical exuberance of sparring, thats how it should be for children. They should learn the discipline and dedication needed to be a good martial artist almost by osmosis. Learning from the seniors how to behave and then behaving correctly because they know it's the right thing to do and because they want to! I know it doesn't always happen that way, it's a misery if you have to keep on at a child but oh the joy when they behave correctly because they know that's what they should do.
Many things are better for waiting and are more enjoyable done when ones an adult, grading for blackbelt is one of those things. It's said the sign of a mature adult is when one can wait for something pleasurable, sounds about the right time to grade for black though I wouldn't say the grading itself was a pleasure. However afterwards the sheer relief, pleasure and sense of achievement I think can only be grasped by an adult. The door that opens with a blackbelt should be scary, exhilarating and be approached with a sense of wonder. It should also be marked 'For Adults Only'
Elder, we have one 16 year old who could if he'd studied TMA be a very good BB, he's mature, can teach well (adults too) and is a well respected member of our MMA fight team so I don't rule out 16 year olds at all. We'll lose him soon though, he's trying for an apprenticeship in the RAF as an avionics engineer, that'll please his dad who's in the Scots Guards lol!

 

[TKD_Father]

As this is the internet (no really?) the temptation to jump in and condemn people is so, well, tempting, and TKD Father you seem to jump in with both feet immediately without waiting to see what's actually transpired.

Which is the nature of posting in forums. Someone makes comments, someone else responds to those comments. Everything that I've said in this thread are a direct result of the original poster's (Terry's) comments.

I won't take any blackbelt seriously who's under the age of at least 20...

Took me nine years to get my belt and I'll likely be a 1st Dan forever, childrens BB devalue the work I put in and others like me.

Well good for you. That thread is locked. This thread is about dealing with parents, not about the age of black belts. Nice to see that you stuck with it.

I don't have "customers."

You can refer to parents however you'd like. I use the term customers because providing a product or service to someone, well that makes them a consumer or customer.

separate issue, though.....

Why yes, yes it is.

Missed your last post Tez3, but looks like more off topic stuff. I believe the moderation here frowns on trying to continue locked posts by derailing an existing topic.

 

[Tez3]

Which is the nature of posting in forums. Someone makes comments, someone else responds to those comments. Everything that I've said in this thread are a direct result of the original poster's (Terry's) comments.


Well good for you. That thread is locked. This thread is about dealing with parents, not about the age of black belts. Nice to see that you stuck with it.


You can refer to parents however you'd like. I use the term customers because providing a product or service to someone, well that makes them a consumer or customer.


Why yes, yes it is.

Missed your last post Tez3, but looks like more off topic stuff. I believe the moderation here frowns on trying to continue locked posts by derailing an existing topic.

Woohoo told off!

Not in the least off topic but a post of how to deal with parents and children, I haven't read the thread that is locked as I've been away, only came back last night so please don't start attributing things to me that you can't hold up and please don't lecture me, it's really not appreciated.
Responding to topics is usually done in a polite manner not a hectoring one, hector me and I will not appreciate it.

Just looked at the locked thread...you think I'm going to read all those pages when I've got unpacking, washing etc to do you are joking! Perhaps you're manner is joking though I only have this thread to see your posts which are very judgemental, why are you so bothered about the age of blackbelts? Guess I must have missed something!

 

[TKD_Father]

Woohoo told off!

Not in the least off topic but a post of how to deal with parents and children, I haven't read the thread that is locked as I've been away, only came back last night so please don't start attributing things to me that you can't hold up and please don't lecture me, it's really not appreciated.
Responding to topics is usually done in a polite manner not a hectoring one, hector me and I will not appreciate it.

But before you told me

TKD Father you seem to jump in with both feet immediately without waiting to see what's actually transpired.

So your responding without "waiting to see what's actually transpired"?

Responding to topics is usually done in a polite manner not a hectoring one, hector me and I will not appreciate it.

I learned a word today! I don't think my reply concerning you has been either b) to treat with insolence; bully; torment:, c) to act in a blustering, domineering way , and certainly not a) he eldest son of Priam and husband of Andromache. I'm sorry you feel that way, it's not my intent at all.

The topic concerns "Parents in the Dojang" and not whether or not children should have black belts.

 

[Tez3]

But before you told me


So your responding without "waiting to see what's actually transpired"?


I learned a word today! I don't think my reply concerning you has been either b) to treat with insolence; bully; torment:, c) to act in a blustering, domineering way , and certainly not a) he eldest son of Priam and husband of Andromache. I'm sorry you feel that way, it's not my intent at all.

The topic concerns "Parents in the Dojang" and not whether or not children should have black belts.

Stick with me mucker and you will learn lots of new words lol! I have a very wide vocabulary........
Haven't the foggiest what you are talking about when you say I'm jumping in without waiting to see what transpired, I was just commenting on your post on this thread not any other. Just thought you seemed keen to criticise Terry on here about his actions which to me seemed fine and even if I didn't think it was, it's not for me to say it shouldn't have gone that far. You were putting my comments **** about face there.

I don't have customers, we have students. We don't provide a service we teach and fight.

Priam's son was Hector, proper noun with a capital H.

 

[MJS]

2 Mod warnings and a nudge, both of which seem to have been missed.

Folks,

Between this thread and the other, which is now reopened, the forum mods have dealt with a number of reported posts. That being said....

If you want to talk about how to deal with parents who cause disruption in your school, do it here. If you want to talk about kids and rank, do it in the other thread. I am requesting that all members follow the forum rules. If you can't post without taking a shot at someone else, then refrain from posting, until you can do so within the scope of the rules.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin