Why parents do not belong on the floor

[terryl965]

Yesterday we went to the Texas Hummadang at the Gaylord Texan Hotel, nice hotel great people except for one parent. Theey brought out several divisions at once to the ring that me and my son Zachary was ask to help ref. Mainly because they did not have enough qualify people to do it, being like we are we said yes. Anyway they was stacked up and behind really bad and this one parent was just complaining all day. They let parentrs be at ringside so that was not good we all know this but not my tournament. After a few hours our T.A. said take a five minute break to go to the restroom so he left my son Zachary stayed behind this father comes up and starts in on him weel Zachary said he had no control of bracket and how long it is taking so he gets mad and grabs him and pokes him in the chest, being his father and Zach is only 17 I came ove to explain and this guys starts yelling at me, well you know I am not standing for this and had to put him in his place first for putting his hands on my son and second for being an ***. The head ref of the whole things wants my son to apologies because he says Zach is in the wrong and I am like dumb founded by this because no person should ever put there hands on a ref let alone a minor. Needless to say we left at that point and I get told that if we ever leave a tournament again they will stop us from being a ref, here is the problem they ask us to be a ref because we are both certified we was never suppose to be a ref period, we did them a favor and get told it is ok for a parent to put his hands on my son. Well they can foreget about that and like I trold him and everyone else anybody touches any of my boys or wife I am not a ref but a very pissed of father that will hurt someone and pay my debt to society I will newver let anybody dis-respect my family ever no matter when it is.

Sorry but I couild not understand the head ref taking sides with a parent that should never be on the floor in the first place. Parents belong in the stand with there emotions and head refs should not be thinking about future money but whether or not they will have enough qualifies refs is they take the sides of spectators because of money.

 

[stone_dragone]

The head ref needed kicked in the junk. JMHO.

 

[granfire]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, they basically pulled you from the stands and then complained and said they would not put you to work again? I am assuming you worked for free? (send them a bill! However much you charge coaching or private lessons...I doubt they pay, but sheesh!):sadsong: it's for you, head ref....

 

[msmitht]

Small tourney? This is typical. The tourney officials let your son take the heat while trying to keep the irate parent happy. If it was not so sad I would laugh. Talk to your sa bum nim and have him talk to the official. They can not do anything about your referee status. Sounds like your son is the one who needs an apology.On another note: why did your son leave the ring to talk to this man? Was there no boundry(like caution tape or roping)? As a referee I do not leave the ring nor do I allow anyone who is not competing or officiating into and around my ring. It would be a good lesson to teach your son to be stronger(mentally) in the ring so that next time he can control the situation better.If any adult put their hands on one of my kids or referees they would be out of the event, one way or another

 

[Master Dan]

First let no good deed go unpunished. If this is not your regular circle and tournament to keep your status in competition or offciating after looking around at the uncotrolled floor you should have said no. You put yourself and your kid at risk. Open tournaments, state ect have been getting worse for decades with heckling and interference few years ago I watched a women parent walk right into the middle of a match and argue with the ref.

You are not just a parent but a black belt master ref your first job is to control the situation and difuse the situation which could have escalated into video being posted on Dumb Tube. No matter the reason if you put hands on a spectator or parent in the tournament you create liability for the tournament owner and besides your own personal issues could cause a substantial raise in insurance costs to the point that they will no longer have that tournament again.

As refs the one thing you can control is stop the match or disqualify the person competing based on the behavior of the parent interfering after a warning. Now even after that they come in to attack you take the hit defend your self passively but let it be him that is charged with asault or let it be the police or security that removes the interfering peopleor parents.

I know this may seem like a woosy way but it is not about your ego it is not your tournament or insurance on the line and after all did your kid get injured by a finger poke was his life in danger or that of others no! Being a master means weigh the long term results of your actions your son may have learned a lesson of watching you handle this *** hole like a gentlemen even though he is not and make him look like a fool because you are being respectfull and polite.

The head ref is not sidding with the guy poking your son but upset with your wanting to take your personal male fighting ego to inflame and put the tournament at risk? All of you who have such an investment in chasing the sport ring as if it is all important could do well to go back and re study what is important and what is not?

And by the way you said this was a Hummadang your spelling there is no fighting in a Hunmudang why are people fighting getting in a Hunmadang? I officated at a world Hanmudang and a Korean Master had to be restrained from atacking the ref who would not give first place to his team and he had to be restrained the second day at the awards again? its funny how people regardless of org, religion, or martial art just get plain pissed off if they don't get thier way. Hope you find something more constructive to do with your time and family

 

[d1jinx]

been there, done that. Terry, I would have backed you up all the way out the door. those goons runnning the tournament could finish it on thier own and I promise I WOULD tell them kiss my *** before I ever helped again. Funny how people justify things to thier favor and paint you out as the bad guy when they asked for your help in the first place. I think they do that on purpose. I think as soon as you leave they turn it all out to be your fault so as they dont take the blame. Funny. Happens alot. If I were there, I would have walked out with you. If the head ref and tournament "director/runner/promoter/head cheese" feel the only way to make it right is to sacrifice the help, screw them. I know they try to make things right for everyone, but that is uncalled for.

tell em get bent and dont help again, even if it is the Texas TKD association.

 

[StudentCarl]

How about asking them whether they would prefer you call the police from the tournament floor and file an assault-and-battery-on-a-minor complaint. If the tournament director won't act, you can still push that button. Nobody should have to put up with that crap, and you're right: parents have no place on the competition floor...just asking for exactly this kind of trouble. I've seen it in numerous sports.

 

[granfire]

been there, done that. Terry, I would have backed you up all the way out the door. those goons runnning the tournament could finish it on thier own and I promise I WOULD tell them kiss my *** before I ever helped again. Funny how people justify things to thier favor and paint you out as the bad guy when they asked for your help in the first place. I think they do that on purpose. I think as soon as you leave they turn it all out to be your fault so as they dont take the blame. Funny. Happens alot. If I were there, I would have walked out with you. If the head ref and tournament "director/runner/promoter/head cheese" feel the only way to make it right is to sacrifice the help, screw them. I know they try to make things right for everyone, but that is uncalled for.

tell em get bent and dont help again, even if it is the Texas TKD association.

well, I guess now we know why the tourney is low on refs. ^_^

 

[Cyriacus]

See now, in Poking him, that could be considered a Mild Form of Assault.
Assault can Warrant Harsh Words in your Defense. And if the Other Person Escalates from there, they are only Condemning themself.
And this other Despot wouldnt have much room for future Retaliation in his Future, regardless.

Now, im inclined to Disagree overall - If the Youth SPECIFICALLY wants one of their Parents on their Ringside, then by all means.
But only as a Cornerman or Adviser.
And only if they themself are a Martial Artist in SOMETHING.
Otherwise, they can only serve as a Distraction. Or, on occasion, do things like this.

 

[terryl965]

No they had no boundaries tape or anything parents could stand right next to the mats.

 

[terryl965]

First let no good deed go unpunished. If this is not your regular circle and tournament to keep your status in competition or offciating after looking around at the uncotrolled floor you should have said no. You put yourself and your kid at risk. Open tournaments, state ect have been getting worse for decades with heckling and interference few years ago I watched a women parent walk right into the middle of a match and argue with the ref.

You are not just a parent but a black belt master ref your first job is to control the situation and difuse the situation which could have escalated into video being posted on Dumb Tube. No matter the reason if you put hands on a spectator or parent in the tournament you create liability for the tournament owner and besides your own personal issues could cause a substantial raise in insurance costs to the point that they will no longer have that tournament again.

As refs the one thing you can control is stop the match or disqualify the person competing based on the behavior of the parent interfering after a warning. Now even after that they come in to attack you take the hit defend your self passively but let it be him that is charged with asault or let it be the police or security that removes the interfering peopleor parents.

I know this may seem like a woosy way but it is not about your ego it is not your tournament or insurance on the line and after all did your kid get injured by a finger poke was his life in danger or that of others no! Being a master means weigh the long term results of your actions your son may have learned a lesson of watching you handle this *** hole like a gentlemen even though he is not and make him look like a fool because you are being respectfull and polite.

The head ref is not sidding with the guy poking your son but upset with your wanting to take your personal male fighting ego to inflame and put the tournament at risk? All of you who have such an investment in chasing the sport ring as if it is all important could do well to go back and re study what is important and what is not?

And by the way you said this was a Hummadang your spelling there is no fighting in a Hunmudang why are people fighting getting in a Hunmadang? I officated at a world Hanmudang and a Korean Master had to be restrained from atacking the ref who would not give first place to his team and he had to be restrained the second day at the awards again? its funny how people regardless of org, religion, or martial art just get plain pissed off if they don't get thier way. Hope you find something more constructive to do with your time and family

Master Dan with all due respect you are just wrong on a few things, I am a parent that has a son that has an irate 6'4" 275 pound man poking him when he did nothing to him. My job as a parent is to protect my childern from harm, lets not forget the incodent at USAT when a competitor came back and kicked that kids in the face after he lost. Secone they called it a Hummadong(how ever you wish to spell it) I did not call it that so talk to Texas State who backed the event. The last thing is simple no matter what my job as a father comes first and foremost when my family is involved and if any of you can sit here and tell me you would have thought nothing about it than we grew up in a different manner.

 

[andyjeffries]

]And by the way you said this was a Hummadang your spelling there is no fighting in a Hunmudang why are people fighting getting in a Hunmadang?

I find it funny that you're pointing out an incorrect spelling and still get it wrong ;-)

한마당 = Hanmadang not Hunmadang

Here's the 2009 site - http://www.hanmadang2009.com/

 

[Aiki Lee]

This story reminds me of when I used to teach karate to children, and there was this one mother who kept telling her son "You're doing it wrong! You're doing it wrong! Here let me show you!" She then got out of her chair, walked onto the floor and began teaching. My father and I (the teachers at the time) were so dumbfounded by this it took nearly 30 seconds before we went over to her and said she couldn't be on the floor, teaching with no experience.

Parents man. Sometimes they are a great asset to a school and sometimes they are not.

 

[msmitht]

This story reminds me of when I used to teach karate to children, and there was this one mother who kept telling her son "You're doing it wrong! You're doing it wrong! Here let me show you!" She then got out of her chair, walked onto the floor and began teaching. My father and I (the teachers at the time) were so dumbfounded by this it took nearly 30 seconds before we went over to her and said she couldn't be on the floor, teaching with no experience.Parents man. Sometimes they are a great asset to a school and sometimes they are not.

While I can say that I have had a similar exp I dont think the op was geared towards on the dojo/dojang floor but a tourney floor. Parents don't belong there either but you have got to applaude her enthusiasm.

 

[miguksaram]

First let no good deed go unpunished. If this is not your regular circle and tournament to keep your status in competition or offciating after looking around at the uncotrolled floor you should have said no. You put yourself and your kid at risk. Open tournaments, state ect have been getting worse for decades with heckling and interference few years ago I watched a women parent walk right into the middle of a match and argue with the ref.

You are not just a parent but a black belt master ref your first job is to control the situation and difuse the situation which could have escalated into video being posted on Dumb Tube. No matter the reason if you put hands on a spectator or parent in the tournament you create liability for the tournament owner and besides your own personal issues could cause a substantial raise in insurance costs to the point that they will no longer have that tournament again.

As refs the one thing you can control is stop the match or disqualify the person competing based on the behavior of the parent interfering after a warning. Now even after that they come in to attack you take the hit defend your self passively but let it be him that is charged with asault or let it be the police or security that removes the interfering peopleor parents.

I know this may seem like a woosy way but it is not about your ego it is not your tournament or insurance on the line and after all did your kid get injured by a finger poke was his life in danger or that of others no! Being a master means weigh the long term results of your actions your son may have learned a lesson of watching you handle this *** hole like a gentlemen even though he is not and make him look like a fool because you are being respectfull and polite.

The head ref is not sidding with the guy poking your son but upset with your wanting to take your personal male fighting ego to inflame and put the tournament at risk? All of you who have such an investment in chasing the sport ring as if it is all important could do well to go back and re study what is important and what is not?

And by the way you said this was a Hummadang your spelling there is no fighting in a Hunmudang why are people fighting getting in a Hunmadang? I officated at a world Hanmudang and a Korean Master had to be restrained from atacking the ref who would not give first place to his team and he had to be restrained the second day at the awards again? its funny how people regardless of org, religion, or martial art just get plain pissed off if they don't get thier way. Hope you find something more constructive to do with your time and family

Dan, words escape me, but let me just say that you once again show that you have no clue in what you are talking about here. The ref was mad at him wanting to protect his kid? Seriously? More like the ref was scared to lose a money or have a bad rep because Papa Finger Poker didn't get his way. Lastly don't try to correct people on their spelling when you are not spelling it correctly yourself.

Terry, you are a better person than me. I do not think I can keep a calm composure once someone puts their hands on my kid in a negative way. They may "ban" you from reffing at a state held Hanmadang, but if you are certified you they cannot ban you entirely. I am sure you are upset that you will not get a free lunch because you cannot ref and I'm sure you will miss *** hole parents like that getting in your face because little Johnny or Suzy will have to learn first hand about not winning a shiny piece of plastic, but you did the right thing.

BTW...who was the owner of the tournament and head ref that did all of this to you? PM me with the info. Thanks.

 

[Master Dan]

With all due respect first as a father I am right there with all of you when it comes to your kids being 60 and raising a 6/7 year old whos mother was killed last November if someone even started to aproach to yell or put hands on I know what I would think and do but given that I have lived longer and been at many more tournaments enough to know espeacially with the trend the last 20 years of the degrading attitude of competitors, parents and tournament officials that it would make sense for all of you who have experience to think before becoming involved yourself and especially your kids with officiating and the one guy stating that the head ref was thinking of himself and money that attitude has been prevelent by tournament \GM's and owners for decades I am just pointing out basic MA thought of knowing the lay of the land before you step in it? especially when your children are involved and that meeting anger or agression with agression tends to only escalate the situation which now days can go very badly.

MA should be a process of thinking of the end result costs of actions at the end. You choose to live with a snake and eventually it bites you who is to blame the snake does what a snake does? All of you can justify your emotions as parents but so can the idiot that interferes complains or threatens my point is how can you avoid it in the future. I don't give a crap anymore about cheap trophies medals or suposably titles but very choosy about what tournaments my self or students would be involved in.

Id like to see spectators and all parent participants have to sign a release entering stating what they can and cannot do resulting in disqualification of thier competitors or being removed from the tournament and verbal anouncments at the begining and possibly twice during the event stating no people on the floor and what actions will be taken. I don't take crap center refing if the crowd or parents look like they are going to be a problem I wil tell them before hand any vocal or other wise interference will stop the competition and the offending person's competitor will be disqualified, don't like it go to the head ref's table. Now I already know what the head ref or tournament owner is going to say before hand or I don't ref.

Your point about your job as a parent is to protect your son from a 6'4" 275 pound man poking him in the chest my point is you put your son thier at risk all of you are putting you kids to some degree every day at risk we all do and we try assess what the risk level is every time we say yes. Tournaments competition going to any public event now days has inherent risk due to any nut job out there and you can always take the position of being morally right in not having done no wrong or being right? but you can be dead right? on just the parent side you can't argue with hey thats my kid but you are more than just a parent you are a Master MA person who should thing ahead and weigh the risk or possible outcome before its too late. You could have said no, or made a polite excuse for not refing ect. which would have been less effort which is easier to defend? If more people refuse to participate in refing tournaments will be forced to invest in better training and better rules avoiding issues and better competion or they are going to keep getting worse until people start realy getting hurt and it becomes cost prohibative to hold them anymore? I am wondering if even friend ship tournaments can behave themselves now?

I'd like to see the Head ref's point of view or side of this posted here it would seem odd that he would have so little regard for you and your son to trash you like that for no other reason than money or a bad rap.

If you live in Texas I hope all of you are well and safe given the fires.

 

[Master Dan]

I am not seeing a whole lot people jumping in on this to totally support your side on this like 8 10 pages of the head ref is wrong and especially from peopel who were actually at the tournament who were officials or refs there if this was officially sanctioned by the state association it would seem one of them would want to respond to your alegations of a very badly run tournament? I know we had some low rank idoits at state even video recording and making allegations of improper refing ect. and it was put down rather well publicly and in writting and a good discusion and decisions made on additional training and support for referies was made.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Dan, I'm not really following your argument. Can you reword it a bit?

 

[miguksaram]

With all due respect first as a father I am right there with all of you when it comes to your kids being 60 and raising a 6/7 year old whos mother was killed last November if someone even started to aproach to yell or put hands on I know what I would think and do but given that I have lived longer and been at many more tournaments enough to know espeacially with the trend the last 20 years of the degrading attitude of competitors, parents and tournament officials that it would make sense for all of you who have experience to think before becoming involved yourself and especially your kids with officiating and the one guy stating that the head ref was thinking of himself and money that attitude has been prevelent by tournament \GM's and owners for decades I am just pointing out basic MA thought of knowing the lay of the land before you step in it? especially when your children are involved and that meeting anger or agression with agression tends to only escalate the situation which now days can go very badly.

So Terry was wrong in the first place for even stepping in and trying to help officiate the ring. He was just asking for it? I'm sorry but that I am failing to see the logic in that. He is a certified official who was asked to help keep things moving. Should he just say "no thanks I am not going to deal with a potential unruly parent or competitor"? Yes violence will only beget violence, but to do nothing while someone is strong arming your child is inexcusable. Terry did not get physical with the guy, but he did the right thing in stepping in.

MA should be a process of thinking of the end result costs of actions at the end. You choose to live with a snake and eventually it bites you who is to blame the snake does what a snake does? All of you can justify your emotions as parents but so can the idiot that interferes complains or threatens my point is how can you avoid it in the future. I don't give a crap anymore about cheap trophies medals or suposably titles but very choosy about what tournaments my self or students would be involved in.

Terry and his son both went in to help with the understanding that the competitors, coaches AND parents are respectful people. Are you saying that they should treat them like snakes? The idiot who complains in an aggressive way or physically threatens another person cannot justify his actions in this case, because he is being a parent. No one purposely held up the ring or denied his child a chance to compete. This guy acted because he and his child were being inconvenienced. Where as Terry saw his son in a threatening situation against someone who I will assume was obviously older and bigger. His paternal instincts took over, while at the same time held his martial composure.

How do we avoid it in the future? Perhaps laying down stricter rules which will be adhered to by those who run the tournaments. We have no tolerance rule in our circuit. If this incident would have happened, the child would have been DQ'd because of the actions of the parent and if needed the police would have been contacted to remove the parent if aggression escalated. And yes, we have acted on this rule. I am happy to say it has only happened once. Contrary to popular belief, this type of thing does not decrease a promoter's bottom line.

Id like to see spectators and all parent participants have to sign a release entering stating what they can and cannot do resulting in disqualification of thier competitors or being removed from the tournament and verbal anouncments at the begining and possibly twice during the event stating no people on the floor and what actions will be taken. I don't take crap center refing if the crowd or parents look like they are going to be a problem I wil tell them before hand any vocal or other wise interference will stop the competition and the offending person's competitor will be disqualified, don't like it go to the head ref's table. Now I already know what the head ref or tournament owner is going to say before hand or I don't ref.

As I already mentioned we have a written Zero Tolerance rule in our circuit's book and it is announced at every judges meeting that we hold at every tournament we sanction and it is explained to the parents before the rings begin. The only thing we do not do is have them sign off on anything, but you know what, I like that idea.

I'd like to see the Head ref's point of view or side of this posted here it would seem odd that he would have so little regard for you and your son to trash you like that for no other reason than money or a bad rap.

I would like to see that too.