How the Japanese view of the black belt

Hot Lunch

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Well, it seems a lot of people do care! To many, fighting is not the point

Yes because of all these weird new commercial styles ….Bibbledybobbledy Ryu (which split into Biddledydwibbledybobbdy Ryu)
Don't feed the troll.
 

Hyoho

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who cares about a Black belt ... some can´t fight to save their lives :D
in the USA Black belts are ten-a-penny
In general I taught fifty-five everyday in Japan ranging from Nidan to Sandan. Some were never good enough to ever make the top five and get on the team. But they all made valuable contribution to the dojo.
 

Gerry Seymour

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This is why I find it weird to see people brag about how long it takes to get black belt at their school.

If it takes you ten years to learn the basics of your art, either switch schools or get yourself checked out for something.

Either way, not impressive to anyone who actually gets to have an opinion. Students under Motobu Choki usually got the basics of his system down in about 6 months, everything afterwards was practical application.
You're assuming the BB means the same thing everywhere. It doesn't. The entire tone of your post is condescending - including the inappropriate snipe about learning disabilities, which I find very middle-school-ish.

It took me more than 12 years to get my BB. That's not a brag. I went slowly for a number of reasons, but it does usually take about 7 years to BB, even for folks who move fast. Our BB includes instructor training (at minimum a year), and is presumed to be an instructor rank. So it should take longer to get ours than it does to get a BB where it signifies the completion of the basic material.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Wait wait wait, stop.

First it's "people misunderstand the black belt! It's actually about the fundamentals!!"

But now that that view is challenged, suddenly you change it to "standards are different everywhere." 🤔
Where exactly do you see Gerry saying "people misunderstand the black belt! It's actually about the fundamentals!!"?
 

Tony Dismukes

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That's what I see most karatekas say.

Then when you bring up the obvious flaw in that, they think they get to argue or change what they're saying for convenience. They wanna be victims so bad lol.

Not how facts work.
1) Gerry is not a karateka.

2) Accusing someone of "changing they're saying for convenience" because they're saying something different from what you heard someone else say is not how facts work.
 

screamingskull

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In general I taught fifty-five everyday in Japan ranging from Nidan to Sandan. Some were never good enough to ever make the top five and get on the team. But they all made valuable contribution to the dojo.
i do not care about in the dojo ...outside is what is important

I understand what you´re saying though but i never did martial arts for sport or fancy dancing around the mats in a Dojo.
 

Hyoho

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i do not care about in the dojo ...outside is what is important

I understand what you´re saying though but i never did martial arts for sport or fancy dancing around the mats in a Dojo.
I teach sword arts both inside and outside. So why do you do the arts? Please don't say self-defence.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Wait wait wait, stop.

First it's "people misunderstand the black belt! It's actually about the fundamentals!!"

But now that that view is challenged, suddenly you change it to "standards are different everywhere." 🤔
I haven't "changed" anything. Someone else may have made a different argument - I'm presenting mine. Don't get confused.

I'm presenting reality. There are different standards of what BB means. There are, indeed, places where BB represents just having the basic currciullum. A friend in college got to BB in about 18 months in such a program. That'd be somewhere around blue belt (maybe green, if you're fast) in the organization I came up in. The belts meant different things.

It's like saying there's a problem because 1 yen doesn't buy as much as 1 US dollar. They are different standards, but both use the number 1.
 

Gerry Seymour

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1. I don't care because that's what most karatekas say anyway. I've already told you this and you're still typing for some reason. Not sure why.

2. So in other words changing the narrative when the current one gets ruined up the behind is acceptable to you? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
So, to you, all people have the same "narrative", so if two people disagree (so they make different arguemnts), that's "changing the narrative"?

If that's your approach, then you are "changing the narrative" from what I think, because you're saying something different that what I said. See ther problem?
 

Gerry Seymour

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i do not care about in the dojo ...outside is what is important

I understand what you´re saying though but i never did martial arts for sport or fancy dancing around the mats in a Dojo.
The value folks provide inside the training area (the dojo) can include being fantastic training partners. And that affects what you can do elsewhere - either in sport or outside.
 

Dirty Dog

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You are the first martial artist I've seen to treat the black belt as anything other than mastery of the basics.. compared to the dozens of others who don't.
The most common martial art in the world today is Kukkiwon TKD. They, and their thousands of instructors, consider 1st Dan to be a beginner rank, achievable in as little as one year of training.
On the other end of the spectrum are the Gracie schools, MooDukKwan TKD, etc, who consider 1st Dan to be a teaching rank.

If you are unaware of this, I have to wonder if your experience isn't, perhaps, a little limited. What, exactly, is your training and experience?
 

Dirty Dog

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Firstly.. you just supported my point that the vast majority of martial artists see it as completion of the basics. So thanks a lot. I appreciate it.
I did nothing of the sort. I provided examples of systems that consider 1st Dan a beginner rank, and of systems that consider 1st Dan a teaching rank. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. If you let me know what part you don't understand, I will try to simplify that portion of my statement.
Secondly.. uhh.. it doesn't matter. Because I know what I'm talking about, as evidenced by this entire back and forth. 😁
So... none?
 

Tony Dismukes

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You are the first martial artist I've seen to treat the black belt as anything other than mastery of the basics.. compared to the dozens of others who don't.

This isn't a matter of "difference of perspective" or whatever. You were stacked up against the consensus, you fell short, and you're trying to weasel your way out of it.

That's it. 🤷🏻‍♂️
You apparently need to get out more and talk to more martial artists from different styles and organizations. If you do, you will discover that there is no such universal consensus.
 

Dirty Dog

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You're the one who said most common buddy. 🤷🏻‍♂️
I think I may see the problem. You just don't understand the sentence.

Let me try to put it in simple terms for you.
Some arts say black belt is big rank. Some arts say black belt is little rank. Some don't even use belts.
 

Buka

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You apparently need to get out more and talk to more martial artists from different styles and organizations. If you do, you will discover that there is no such universal consensus.
If you can get him to come to the MT members training hookup I swear to God I’ll fly there.
 

Hanshi

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Like Gerry Seymour, it took me 12 years to get shodan and nearly that long for nidan. I've seen 10 year olds with 4th dan black belts! One of my best students took 8 years to reach black belt. Some obviously value shodan more than others.

Who is this "scratch guy" anyway.
 

Bujingodai

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The school makes the difference I think. I do think it should be a big deal it is a benchmark. When you are a kyu and people say it's not a big deal it still is, then when you have dan rank you can easily say it but you are there. Depending on the system they will hand out the dans like candy. 15 levels of it from where I started out and left.
Kyu rank 1st half is elementary school higher ranked kyu high school dan rank is college and university. Bad analogy but that is how I see it
 

Hanshi

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It is a big thing to earn 1st dan in many schools as it was in mine. I consider it (my organizations) as an admission to a select group. It might be comparable to being promoted to partner in a law firm. I was often accused of turning potential students away by emphasizing the time it would take and the hard training required for each and every belt. The most outlandish was a woman who signed up and and complained about the "smell of sweat" in the dojo. Even stranger was that she refused to either dress out or get on the mat by stating flatly that "she was a sight learner and could get it all just by watching the class!

IMHO joining a dojo is much like joining a church. One normally doesn't just join a church so they can sit and watch the festivities. One joins because they commit (if honest) to the message and the spirituality with their heart & soul. I've trained under and have known quite a few world-class and even "famous" martial art sensei and they all were very concerned with the progress of every student and every friend but would not tolerate the sophomoric crowd.
 

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