How do you view tae kwon do?

[DArnold]

I'm sorry, but these hardly qualify as TKD only techniques. Most TKD schools are **** because they lack those very techniques. And if they were done well it would just end up being Karate, unless they cross trained in something else.
And I consider my life quite the opposite of sheltered, thank you.

Juniors who are insecure in what they do usually have a better time on sites like http://www.bullshido.com

I would suggest that if you have something constructive to add it would be nice, otherwise I would suggest that others ignore this drabble as it is a waste of time.

Weeds flourish where it takes cultivation and work to produce a flower of beauty.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Weeds flourish where it takes cultivation and work to produce a flower of beauty.

Very true. If only Maarteen understood this. Some of his views show he doesn't.

And (for the record) my Sensei (before Cuong Nhu) did Tae Kwon Do. One of my training partners is a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. One of the upper ranks at my school is a fifth dan in Tae Kwon Do. And let my assure you, they consistetly whoop my butt!

 

[exile]

How do you view tae kwon do? Do you view it as a sport, or a martial art? Can it be both? Are some schools only for sport (not a bad thing, in my opinion)?

Being more focused on sporting aspect of it, to me, isn't a bad thing. That's kind of where I want the thread to stay at, please. There are no wrong opinions or thoughts.

OK... just to have the OP staring down at me as I respond, to keep from going off on tangents. :wink1:

It's clear that TKD is viewed as a sport by millions of people. You don't get into the Olympics unless that's the case. That's not my vision of, or interest in TKD, though.

I see TKD as a martial art, battle-tested, literally. The TKD that Tae Hi Nam and Gen. Choi devised on the basis of their Shotokan training (in Japan with Funakoshi and in Korea under Lee Wan Kuk respectively) was, so far as I know, the only TMA ever taught to a whole military cadre as a national military combative technique, and it proved itself spectacularly in the two horrific modern wars in which the RoK was a belligerant. Those Kwan era techniques are still part of the bedrock technical core of TKD. Anyone with a time machine who doubted the combat effectiveness of TKD would be very ill-advised to return to the 1950s and 60s to try conclusions on the matter with members of the Tiger commando units of those two wars, or with the RoK 11th Division Marines, IMO.

I see TKD as Korean karate, an elaboration in the Korean context of the vision of a hard, linear art incorporating certain kinds of locks, pins and controlling moves to expedite linear finishing strike to vulnerable points on assailant's bodies that Bushi Matsumura and Anko Itosu contributed to the MAs of Asia. Trained for street (or battlefield) use, with emphasis on the close quarter range, it's devastating—and it has a public track record in the Korean and Vietnamese contexts that should compel respect from anyone who knows even a little about those two conflicts. That same art is still there, completely independent of sport competition, if that's how practitioners have the will to train it...

 

[Flying Crane]

And TKD is not the exception these days, just a glaring example of what MA have been watered down to. Wushu is exactly the same. I came to China to study CMA to get away from useless TKD only to find that it was the same. Imagine how pissed off I am.

While you may have a valid point in seeing a general trend in some cases, it is very myopic to apply this judgement to an art as a whole, or all schools that give instruction in that art. There are certainly good instructors in any art, that teach quality material and hold the students to a high standard. The reverse is also true, that there are schools in any art that are teaching watered-down material with low standards. But don't make blanket statements, 'cause it just ain't true.

I don't know why you would feel the need to flee your home and go to China in search of quality Chinese martial arts. I can certainly understand that as a foreigner, you might not get access to the better instructors in a place like that, and without someone to make introductions it could be a downright mistake to go there. You are probably seen as a tourist, and the tourists get Modern Wushu/Performance Art. Without some kind of connection, you may not ever get the good stuff. While I don't know where you are originally from, I can certainly attest to the quality of instruction available in the US in places like San Francisco. There are no "magic kingdoms" in the martial arts, where the best of the best are to be found. Good stuff is found everywhere, but sometimes you need to look under a few rocks before you find them.

While my sifu has always been very open with me and willing to teach what he knows, I am also aware that I made a real breakthru with him after about 4 years. It took him a while to have complete trust in me, in my intentions and dedication to training, before he was willing to really open the door in subtle ways he hadn't before, and I hadn't even realized it before. This stuff isn't just handed out to any schmoe who walks in the door and sticks a wad of cash under the sifu's nose. It takes more than that...

 

[MaartenSFS]

Talking about multiple attackers...

It was quite uncalled for to break it off as a thread and put it in the TKD sympathisers forum. And out of context as well. I tried to end it before it got out of hand, but it was all of you that continued. Infractions and negative rep points are not the most important things in my life. That's the hole that my training fills. If it cannot be tolerated that one have an opinion that does not conform to the norm, then there is no place for me here.

 

[Flying Crane]

Talking about multiple attackers...

It was quite uncalled for to break it off as a thread and put it in the TKD sympathisers forum. And out of context as well. I tried to end it before it got out of hand, but it was all of you that continued. Infractions and negative rep points are not the most important things in my life. That's the hole that my training fills. If it cannot be tolerated that one have an opinion that does not conform to the norm, then there is no place for me here.

Most people here have some pretty strong opinions, and people often find themselves in disagreement. Thats called "discussion", and disagreement is part of discussion. You made some strong statements that people chose to dispute. There is a place for you here as long as your discussions, including disagreements, remain respectful. And that's a two-way street for those who choose to respond as well.

 

[terryl965]

Talking about multiple attackers...

It was quite uncalled for to break it off as a thread and put it in the TKD sympathisers forum. And out of context as well. I tried to end it before it got out of hand, but it was all of you that continued. Infractions and negative rep points are not the most important things in my life. That's the hole that my training fills. If it cannot be tolerated that one have an opinion that does not conform to the norm, then there is no place for me here.

MaartenSFS what did you expect to happen when you call it waterdown and not effective and TKD homosexual, I for one find it annoying and somebody that truely has no ideal what TKD is and when it is above the norm. I for one also see you as an assit here on MT and hope you stick around remember the is alway heat coming from the kitchen and if you do not like the heat then stay in the living room.

 

[exile]

Talking about multiple attackers...
It was quite uncalled for to break it off as a thread and put it in the TKD sympathisers forum.

But no, actually. Since the OP in the earlier thread was about the possibility of handling multiple attackers, and the best means of doing so, it was exactly the right thing to do to split off a subthread which had gone off the original topic and was now focusing on properties of the martial art TKD, and relocate that subthread in the TKD forum. If (i) you'd made parallel comments about the ineffectiveness of karate, based on the fact that karate, like TKD, has a significant martial sport aspect where people train for tournament competition, not the street or battle field, and (ii) people had challenged you on that point in a way parallel to the way you were challenged about TKD, then it would have been entirely appropriate to relocate that element of the thread (which would have been just as off-topic as this one was) to the karate forum. Or if had been Silat, to the FMA forum. Or if Northern Mantis, then to the northern systems forum. Or.... What would have been inappropriate would have been allowing this discussion to derail the central issues raised in the OP: is a defense against multiple attackers possible, and if so, what form does it take?

And out of context as well.

On the contrary: it was the original off-topic subthread which was out of context. You were raising questions about the overall effectiveness of a particular MA. You didn't even bother to link your attack on that MA to the issue of multiple attacks; it was a wholesale condemnation of the effectiveness of TKD on the street, which you made in the virtual presence of quite a few people who are in a position to show that your comments are unfounded. `Multiple attack'? The point is, if you're going to tell a bunch of people who adepts in a particular MA that their art is ineffective, you'd better have your facts right. Because given the amount of time they've spent studying, practicing and using it, they know much more than you do about it. Surely that's not surprising?

I tried to end it before it got out of hand, but it was all of you that continued.

Well, you said a number of things about TKD that people who actually know something about TKD are in a position to refute from any number of points of view, on the basis of their extensive training in that art. Are you saying that in an open discussion forum the proper thing for them to do would be to keep their mouths shut and not challenge negative statements from someone whose knowledge and understanding of their art is far less than their own? Why on earth would you expect them to give up their right to respond to you? You showed no particular restraint in challenging their art; why should they be silent in the face of your statements? Do you
actually expect people to accept that kind of double standard??

Infractions and negative rep points are not the most important things in my life.

No, of course not. They merely register others' perceptions of your behavior, and the degree to which that behavior violates norms of civility and the conventions of posting behavior that you agreed to in joining the board. If those considerations are unimportant to you, then clearly infraction records and negative rep are equally unimportant.

That's the hole that my training fills. If it cannot be tolerated that one have an opinion that does not conform to the norm, then there is no place for me here.

I'm not sure what `it' is intended to refer to here, but what people are having a hard time tolerating is just what I referred to: an evident lack of civility in the way you discuss things. There is no place for homophobic statements, for deliberate rudeness to other members, for personal attacks. We have plenty of heated discussions on MT without infraction points or neg rep being fired around. It's all in how it's done....

 

[CuongNhuka]

As usual Exile, you have posted a great deal of depth on the topic. Unlike usual, I would have expected that you would analised his comments on Tae Kwon Do.

 

[exile]

I would have expected that you would analised his comments on Tae Kwon Do.

Thanks for the kind comment, CN; as for discussing the point at issue... I did post something a few messages earlier, and it states as well as I can why I think that the remarks about TKD that triggered this whole discussion are way off base. But the fact is, I'm not sure there's enough common ground—even about how a discussion should be carried on—to revisit those remarks and critique them in greater detail. It takes two to tango... we might do better just to overlook the comments in question, for which there's clearly very little sympathy from anyone else, and press on with the discussion from a more constructive angle. After a while, you just wind up with a bad headache when it goes on like this for too long:

 

[Brother John]

How do you view tae kwon do? Do you view it as a sport, or a martial art? Can it be both? Are some schools only for sport (not a bad thing, in my opinion)?

Being more focused on sporting aspect of it, to me, isn't a bad thing. That's kind of where I want the thread to stay at, please. There are no wrong opinions or thoughts.

As a reinterpretation of Japanese Karate-Do, and progressively more and more sport focused.

Your Brother
John

 

[MaartenSFS]

But no, actually. Since the OP in the earlier thread was about the possibility of handling multiple attackers, and the best means of doing so, it was exactly the right thing to do to split off a subthread which had gone off the original topic and was now focusing on properties of the martial art TKD, and relocate that subthread in the TKD forum. If (i) you'd made parallel comments about the ineffectiveness of karate, based on the fact that karate, like TKD, has a significant martial sport aspect where people train for tournament competition, not the street or battle field, and (ii) people had challenged you on that point in a way parallel to the way you were challenged about TKD, then it would have been entirely appropriate to relocate that element of the thread (which would have been just as off-topic as this one was) to the karate forum. Or if had been Silat, to the FMA forum. Or if Northern Mantis, then to the northern systems forum. Or.... What would have been inappropriate would have been allowing this discussion to derail the central issues raised in the OP: is a defense against multiple attackers possible, and if so, what form does it take?




On the contrary: it was the original off-topic subthread which was out of context. You were raising questions about the overall effectiveness of a particular MA. You didn't even bother to link your attack on that MA to the issue of multiple attacks; it was a wholesale condemnation of the effectiveness of TKD on the street, which you made in the virtual presence of quite a few people who are in a position to show that your comments are unfounded. `Multiple attack'? The point is, if you're going to tell a bunch of people who adepts in a particular MA that their art is ineffective, you'd better have your facts right. Because given the amount of time they've spent studying, practicing and using it, they know much more than you do about it. Surely that's not surprising?




Well, you said a number of things about TKD that people who actually know something about TKD are in a position to refute from any number of points of view, on the basis of their extensive training in that art. Are you saying that in an open discussion forum the proper thing for them to do would be to keep their mouths shut and not challenge negative statements from someone whose knowledge and understanding of their art is far less than their own? Why on earth would you expect them to give up their right to respond to you? You showed no particular restraint in challenging their art; why should they be silent in the face of your statements? Do you
actually expect people to accept that kind of double standard??



No, of course not. They merely register others' perceptions of your behavior, and the degree to which that behavior violates norms of civility and the conventions of posting behavior that you agreed to in joining the board. If those considerations are unimportant to you, then clearly infraction records and negative rep are equally unimportant.



I'm not sure what `it' is intended to refer to here, but what people are having a hard time tolerating is just what I referred to: an evident lack of civility in the way you discuss things. There is no place for homophobic statements, for deliberate rudeness to other members, for personal attacks. We have plenty of heated discussions on MT without infraction points or neg rep being fired around. It's all in how it's done....

Without responding to each and every point made here, let me give it a go... (This post being the only one worth responding to)

The way that I communicate is always strong and saying that "TKD = homosexual tag" is not a homophobic statement, but a humourous gesture. So what if I have a vulgar voice? It's the theories that I discuss that should be addressed, not disecting my every phrase. Go back and read some of my earlier contributive posts.

And saying that I have little experience in TKD is as much more of an insult to me than calling me some generic name. Because this is certainly not the case. I believe that 99% of MA taught today are ineffective. I have been around the world, visiting schools and training what I can, been in hostile situations, et cetera. I know, at least for myself, what works and what doesn't, what is rubbish, what is gold... Gold in the MA is rare. In every country.

And an MA community that discourages questioning everything and putting it all to the test is just aiding the demise of real MA. Soon we can do nothing but pick up a rifle and join the ranks of the armed forces or go to the 8 Mile after 18:00 if we want to learn how to fight. And whoever talked about Bullshido... They are just as hypocritical. Everyone is following some trend/cult. Where are the people that just want to perfect the art of war, ranks, lineages, world titles aside?

And unless these "adepts" you speak of have perfected their techniques through "battlefield experience", I hardly consider them as such. Just more arseholes on the internet, which is what we all are, after all. The reason I singled out TKD and Wushu is because I have extensive experience with both. And, yes, I have been to both WTF and ITF tournaments. China has also been overrun by TKD in all its ****tastic glory. Excuse me for making it personal and curse those that say that I am not experienced if I disagree with them. I stand by my opinion, accept any challenge that comes, and firmly believe that TKD and Wushu are useless in a multiple attacker scenario because, were it to be successfully used, it would no longer be TKD in my book. And I never said Karate was so good. I scoff at most empty hand MA. Just because swimming, climbing, and gymnastics could aid one in a fight does not make them MA.

Go ahead, flood me with negative rep points, Exile me from this forum.. I will never surrender my logic to the mass that is the ignorant majority.

 

[MaartenSFS]

As a reinterpretation of Japanese Karate-Do, and progressively more and more sport focused.

Your Brother
John

Amen.

 

[tntma12]

Without responding to each and every point made here, let me give it a go... (This post being the only one worth responding to)

The way that I communicate is always strong and saying that "TKD = homosexual tag" is not a homophobic statement, but a humourous gesture. So what if I have a vulgar voice? It's the theories that I discuss that should be addressed, not disecting my every phrase. Go back and read some of my earlier contributive posts.

And saying that I have little experience in TKD is as much more of an insult to me than calling me some generic name. Because this is certainly not the case. I believe that 99% of MA taught today are ineffective. I have been around the world, visiting schools and training what I can, been in hostile situations, et cetera. I know, at least for myself, what works and what doesn't, what is rubbish, what is gold... Gold in the MA is rare. In every country.

And an MA community that discourages questioning everything and putting it all to the test is just aiding the demise of real MA. Soon we can do nothing but pick up a rifle and join the ranks of the armed forces or go to the 8 Mile after 18:00 if we want to learn how to fight. And whoever talked about Bullshido... They are just as hypocritical. Everyone is following some trend/cult. Where are the people that just want to perfect the art of war, ranks, lineages, world titles aside?

And unless these "adepts" you speak of have perfected their techniques through "battlefield experience", I hardly consider them as such. Just more arseholes on the internet, which is what we all are, after all. The reason I singled out TKD and Wushu is because I have extensive experience with both. And, yes, I have been to both WTF and ITF tournaments. China has also been overrun by TKD in all its ****tastic glory. Excuse me for making it personal and curse those that say that I am not experienced if I disagree with them. I stand by my opinion, accept any challenge that comes, and firmly believe that TKD and Wushu are useless in a multiple attacker scenario because, were it to be successfully used, it would no longer be TKD in my book. And I never said Karate was so good. I scoff at most empty hand MA. Just because swimming, climbing, and gymnastics could aid one in a fight does not make them MA.

Go ahead, flood me with negative rep points, Exile me from this forum.. I will never surrender my logic to the mass that is the ignorant majority.

In my experience, I have seen both watered down versions of TKD as well as TKD schools that offer great, effective, all around training. But this is true for many different arts. Its one thing to say that there are many useless trainers out there, giving ma a bad name, but to say that 99% of MA taught today are ineffective, wow, thats going just a little far. This would make me question the training you have seen or studied if this is your opinion on the martial arts in general today.

 

[Adept]

Go ahead, flood me with negative rep points, Exile me from this forum.. I will never surrender my logic to the mass that is the ignorant majority.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

You will not be missed, Maarten.

 

[Catalyst]

I won't reply to Maarten's comments since I see he's been Banned.

The only thing I'll say is:

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

You will not be missed, Maarten.

Amen

 

[CuongNhuka]

I won't reply to Maarten's comments since I see he's been Banned.

The only thing I'll say is:


Amen

I second that Amen.

 

[Tez3]

I thought you might like to see what a TKD champion can do.Please scroll down to the fight list and stop at UFC38 and the KO in 10 seconds! I was there and it was beautiful. Also note that 50% of Marks wins were by KOs.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=3599

 

[CuongNhuka]

What are his other 50%? TKO, submission, ref stopage?

 

[Tez3]

What are his other 50%? TKO, submission, ref stopage?

I can't remember lol! scroll down on the sherdog site it says there. He's also a really nice guy!