How do you view tae kwon do?

[IcemanSK]

Hi.

How would "old style" training be different from "sport" training? E.g. would there be a greater emphasis on forms or..?

Where I train, it isn't really a dojang per se, it's more like a club in my school. What we learn is very heavily form-oriented (poomsae/WTF forms), and we only take part in poomsae tournaments (and sweep plenty of the trophies, I gotta admit). Downside is we're much weaker on the sparring side.

I guess based on my experience of TKD I'd consider it to be more of a sport here, but I wanna discover more of its martial art aspect too.

I began training in 1982. The change from "old school" to "sport" seemed to be just turning. I judge this by things like the introduction of foam sparring gear. I trained with a lot of folks who had trained in the 70's. They told stories of sparring full contact wearing a mouth piece & cup as the only protective gear. Chest protectors were rare & head gear was non-existant. These guys bragged about their scars & broken ribs, etc. Forms were also very important to these folks.

I guess the difference could be stated in one word: intensity. Training was very intense all the time. That is my sense of it. I would welcome the thoughts of my seniors on this board who did train in the days before pads for their insights. Their words have more weight on this subject.

 

[Tez3]

I began training in 1982. The change from "old school" to "sport" seemed to be just turning. I judge this by things like the introduction of foam sparring gear. I trained with a lot of folks who had trained in the 70's. They told stories of sparring full contact wearing a mouth piece & cup as the only protective gear. Chest protectors were rare & head gear was non-existant. These guys bragged about their scars & broken ribs, etc. Forms were also very important to these folks.

I guess the difference could be stated in one word: intensity. Training was very intense all the time. That is my sense of it. I would welcome the thoughts of my seniors on this board who did train in the days before pads for their insights. Their words have more weight on this subject.

TKD isn't alone in this, my instructor has been in MA for over thirty years and he talks of fighting full contact karate in the same way as you describe. His first MA was Judo and he teaches us what he calls old style Judo, he says 'modern' Judo has been watered down.
I run what I call a women's martial arts class but the women prefer to call it kick boxing as it's fashionable! They don't want contact, they want the fitness and to boast they do kickboxing to their mates. I take them because I can help their fitness and teach them some self protection techniques plus how to kick and punch properly as opposed to the gym 'boxercise' stuff. I think it's what a lot of people want these days...instant martial arts along with most other things. People can't work towards things anymore, it all has to be now. Who works and saves up for anything now that credit is available everwhere? The same with martial arts, you want a blackbelt? ok I'll make the grading easier! It's not just about dojos making money,though there's plenty of that, if they offered free lessons a lot of people still would want things done easily I think.

Health and Safety along with litigatious nature of people these days means we have to be careful of not letting anyone even break a fingernail!

 

[TjThunder]

As said before I think it can be both as long as the full spectrum of the style is trained. If you train for sport but still keep the traditional aspects then TKD can be both art and sport. It also can vary with the individual. One student may only care about trophies and medals and learning patterns so they can "place" in the next tournament, then in the same school another person may be training because they view TKD as a form of personal expression and study it for it's own intrinsic purposes. TKD is different things to different people.

 

[foot2face]

I studied in a "WTF style" school, but we never competed in any tournaments. I didn't even know what "Olympic Style" was until after I earned my BB. I recall the first time I went to a tournament( as a spectator). I was very excited, based on how my master descried the tournaments he competed in as a young man in S. Korea and how we sparred(a fight between friends) at my school I expected something in the middle of Best Of The Best and Bloodsport, boy was I disappointed.

I view TKD, based on what I was taught, as a very hard, fast and extremely aggressive fighting system. Sadly, I feel my style is dying and being replaced with one that values winning a match over winning a fight(worst of all they don't always know the difference between the two).

 

[jfarnsworth]

It's a martial art but you can tailor it to fit whatever needs you want. A martial art, sport, for fun, fitness whichever.

 

[Last Fearner]

How do you view tae kwon do? Do you view it as a sport, or a martial art? Can it be both?

I think it is misleading to view "Taekwondo" as anything other than a word. What one person says is Taekwondo, another person might say, "No, that's not Taekwondo." Many people are doing all sorts of things and calling it "Taekwondo." To define what Taekwondo is, I think it would vary depending on the source of the definition (Koreans, or non-Koreans; Martial Artists or non-Martial Artists; Taekwondoists or non-Taekwondoists; Combat oriented students; Health and fitness minded; sports focused individuals).

From my perspective, "Taekwondo" is an education. What you apply that education to might vary. The requirements of what you learn, and the focus of specialized skill will vary depending on what you intend to apply that education to. If you are only interested in using the knowledge for improved health, then the training might be weak in other areas. If you are primarily focused on the sport aspect, then you might sacrifice training time for real-life combat.

Although I believe you can do both, and do them both well, in my opinion, doing these specialized training programs is what leads to "watered down" versions of any Martial Art system. That might not be bad for the individual, but could be bad for the Art itself.

If you ask if Taekwondo is a "Martial Art, then you must consider that there is also the additional debate of what a "Martial Art" is. If you believe that the Marital Art is merely training to fight, and to win in combat, then "Taekwondo" only needs to accomplish that task. However, I believe the Martial Art (the way I was taught to interpret it) is a complete education of the mind, body, and spirit. The term "Do" is a unique concept that is rarely understood outside of serious, dedicated students of the Martial Art.

To me, "Do" represents everything the Martial Art is designed to accomplish. It is a way of life, and a philosophy of life for the warrior who possesses the skill to end life with relative ease. The Chinese philosophy of the I-Ching represented in the Yin and Yang symbol is carried over and shared in the Korean "Taegeuk" symbol of Um and Yang. It means, "nothing is left out." A system of training to improve every aspect of your life, and give the student the tools and skills to handle any adversity, and accomplish any goal possible.

If taken to mean the Korean National Martial Art, Taekwondo is, at its core, a Martial Art, but that entails much more than just learning to fight effectively. It can include sport competition, but that should not detract from the core purpose. Without the "Do" Taekwondo is nothing more than "punching and kicking." Nothing more than crude fighting.

The South Korean Government's desire to use the popularity of Taekwondo as a marketing tool is understandable, and should not detract from what it is. The WTF, or any other such organization, is made up of people (mostly Koreans at the top level) who are attempting to market Taekwondo on the international scene. Calling it a "Martial Sport" is a marketing ploy that focuses on one particular aspect. It does not change what Taekwondo is, unless you change what you do, and what you are calling Taekwondo.

For the most part, the Korean Taekwondo Masters know that only a handful of dedicated people will want to study "old school" genuine Taekwondo, but a mass market will be interested in "Martial Sport" and modernized Taekwondo. Thus, it is about economics on the world scale, but be assured that they are still preserving the Best of the nature of Taekwondo (the ROK and every bit of Korea's historical input) as their own curriculum. They are not too concerned if foreigners get that genuine, hard-core training or not, and most non-Asians don't know the difference, or don't seem to care. I am honored, and lucky enough to have been taught the true Korean Taekwondo perspective. I am proud to continue with teaching that tradition, but I do not condemn the co-existence of the Sport aspect since it does not detract from my core training.

That's my personal perspective and opinion.
Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart

 

[terryl965]

What are my views of Tae Kwon Do

Well lets start with the truth:

Tae Kwon Do is the equivalent to Karate Truth or mishap

Tae Kwon Do is century old: truth or mishap

Tae Kwon Do is a Sport only endeavor: truth or mishap

Tae Kwon Do is an effective SD Art: truth or mishap

Tae Kwon Do is a marketing ploy: truth or mishap

Tae Kwon Do is only about the money: truth or mishap.

You see by asking these question one can come to the conclusion it is all and yet it is or could be only one. For me it is a way of life it means so much more than fighting or sport aspect, it is a deeper presence that makes me want to train day in and day out. My Tae Kwon Do has everything my mind, body and soul can handle. My Tae Kwon Do is a meaning in understanding the true essence of oneself. My Tae Kwon Do is what My GM say it is when he says it is. One day that can be some type of groundwork, the next day it is about kicks, the next punches and then on another it is about finding myself all over again. The more I grow in my Tae Kwon Do the less I personally know, but my journey will always be the very best that I can be within that time frame.

I hope that everybody that has ever taken Tae Kwon Do had a feeling once that everything was perfect for only that split second only to find out, we need to train more, for no man can ever be perfect and we all strive everyday or at least I do and for me and my family the journey has only begun for the future is what Tae Kwon Do is.

 

[Karatedrifter7]

TKD is a martial art, and an athletically changelling one at that. I suppose thats where the sports boon came into play? It was also my first martial many many moons ago. Its also one of the preferred martial arts skills, if
you wanna do stunts or MA acting in Hollywood. Thats what I think.

 

[MaartenSFS]

I'm sorry you've not seen truly good TKD - which is extremely combat effective. As far as letting bygones be bygones - IMHO the above was hardly an apology, and while you may not have intended it to be the focus of your post, I can assure you that quite a few people will be focusing on it.

To return to the topic at hand, which is multiple attackers, I won't bother to repeat the truly excellent responses which have already been posted - but I will add, as an addendum to running and taking on opponents 1-on-1 whenever possible, that staying out the middle of the group is generally advisable.

It is I who am sorry. Truly good TKD is just Karate. Now if some Koreans were better at it than Japanese or Okinawans has nothing to do with TKD. And I know about the Koreans in Vietnam and all that.

I am not talking out of my **** here. I studied TKD for years. And TKD is not the exception these days, just a glaring example of what MA have been watered down to. Wushu is exactly the same. I came to China to study CMA to get away from useless TKD only to find that it was the same. Imagine how pissed off I am. Most MAists are dillusional when it comes to how far their techniques can take them. I believe that sports/martial dancing/combat ineffective MA are not MA at all. They are a danger to all that practise them and are oblivious to the fact that, were they to engage with an enemy, these techniques/training methods would fail them when they need them most. This is irresponsible.

In the past it was weapons that were used for self defense. Why should anything have changed since now? Ancient warriors would have used all the weapons in their arsenal down to the last butter knife (You know what I mean =P ), rather than fight unarmed.

Another thought: Assuming that you are alone during the attack: Parkour

 

[CuongNhuka]

It is I who am sorry. Truly good TKD is just Karate. Now if some Koreans were better at it than Japanese or Okinawans has nothing to do with TKD.

Me thinks you don't know too much about WTF? Like those guys at the Olympics. You know they only get a point for kicking someone hard enough to knock them back, make them fall over, or go night night. Not to mention the way they condition those strikes is very UN - Karate.

Now, in the states is that true, MAYBE. But in Korea, we have a whole other monster going on people. Not to mention, by your deffinition, I am doing Shotokan. And you are doing a basterized version of Muay Thai. You do Sanda, which is based off Kick Boxing, which is based off Muay Thai.
Now, if I were to go to a Shotokan school and say "I'm a San Kyu in Shotokan", they'll laugh me out of the school. The same will be said if you were to say anything along the same lines to a Kick Boxing or Muay Thai school.

So in the future, please think a little more about what you say. Thank you.

 

[MaartenSFS]

Me thinks you don't know too much about WTF? Like those guys at the Olympics. You know they only get a point for kicking someone hard enough to knock them back, make them fall over, or go night night. Not to mention the way they condition those strikes is very UN - Karate.

Now, in the states is that true, MAYBE. But in Korea, we have a whole other monster going on people. Not to mention, by your deffinition, I am doing Shotokan. And you are doing a basterized version of Muay Thai. You do Sanda, which is based off Kick Boxing, which is based off Muay Thai.
Now, if I were to go to a Shotokan school and say "I'm a San Kyu in Shotokan", they'll laugh me out of the school. The same will be said if you were to say anything along the same lines to a Kick Boxing or Muay Thai school.

So in the future, please think a little more about what you say. Thank you.

HAAA! Way to read my profile!

I was never refering to What The ****?! Taekwondo. I was refering to the "Good TKD". Why don't you learn how to read what I stated in my earlier posts? TKD = STK Karate with useless flashy kicks, a fabricated history, and General Choi worship added. **hate speech removed**

And I quit Sanda for the very reason that it is another "copy" of the kickboxing molde and, because like most MMA practitioners, its practitioners lack the spirit and creativity that developed them in the first place. They are just egotistical brutes.

I hope that there is no future with you still in this thread.

 

[MaartenSFS]

I can assure you that this (quite bizarre) definition of what techniques and strategies define the styles of karate and taekwondo is very much unique to yourself.

There are many techniques and strategies which are very effective in the real world, and which are also commonly recognised as taekwondo.

I have yet to see a single one. Rapidly poking people with my toes and taking myself off balance is sure to anger multiple opponents. I can only hope that you also studied Parkour.

 

[Adept]

I have yet to see a single one.

Interesting.

You've never seen low kicks to the waist and legs, elbow strikes, or punches be effective in a real life situation?

What a sheltered life you must have led.

 

[MaartenSFS]

Interesting.

You've never seen low kicks to the waist and legs, elbow strikes, or punches be effective in a real life situation?

What a sheltered life you must have led.

I'm sorry, but these hardly qualify as TKD only techniques. Most TKD schools are **** because they lack those very techniques. And if they were done well it would just end up being Karate, unless they cross trained in something else.

And I consider my life quite the opposite of sheltered, thank you.

 

[CuongNhuka]

HAAA! Way to read my profile!

I was never refering to What The ****?! Taekwondo. I was refering to the "Good TKD". Why don't you learn how to read what I stated in my earlier posts? TKD = STK Karate with useless flashy kicks, a fabricated history, and General Choi worship added. **hate speech removed - G Ketchmark / shesulsa, MT Assist. Admin**

And I quit Sanda for the very reason that it is another "copy" of the kickboxing molde and, because like most MMA practitioners, its practitioners lack the spirit and creativity that developed them in the first place. They are just egotistical brutes.

I hope that there is no future with you still in this thread.

So, what is the differnce between "good Tae Kwon Do" and World Tae Kwon do Federation Tae Kwon Do? I mean honestly now, you started the hate, lets see you defend it.

Nextly, how much experince do you have in Shotokan? And how do you know that the flashly kicks are useless? Maybe there not about fighting in of themselves? Ever heard of application?

Now, it's fine if YOU'RE a homophobe (such a useless thing to hate/be afraid of) but, don't spread your hate to me. Next time, you will regret it (meaning you will be the first to get negitive rep from me).

So, you quite a Martial Art, becuase like ALL Martial Arts, it is based off one or anouther? Wow, that's.... wow.

Say, just as a thought. Since this little side discussion between me and Marteen (some of the other users) is getting off target, can we move to the Tae Kwon Do forum?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Say, just as a thought. Since this little side discussion between me and Marteen (some of the other users) is getting off target, can we move to the Tae Kwon Do forum?

Folks,

We're getting a bit off track here. Lets stick with the questions that I asked in the beginning please! If the subject of TKD is going to come up, lets discuss the ways TKD deals with multiple attacks. If anyone is interested in rehashing a TKD debate, take a look at some of the existing TKD threads and continue there. If someone is interested in discussing another aspect of TKD, start a new thread.

MJS, I did ask if we could break off the part about whether or not Tae Kwon Do is relivent. I don't suppose you would mind breaking this part of the thread off into a seperate one in the Korean Arts area?

 

[shesulsa]

MJS, I did ask if we could break off the part about whether or not Tae Kwon Do is relivent. I don't suppose you would mind breaking this part of the thread off into a seperate one in the Korean Arts area?

I'll be glad to do that.

 

[Last Fearner]

Maarten - - I will attempt to respond to some of your comments as politely, and directly as possible.

I also think that Taekwondo and Wushu would be useless (Good TKD is no longer TKD - FLAME ON!!!).

If that is what you think, you would be wrong. The "Taekwondo" you learned might be useless for you, but my Taekwondo works quite well!

My meaning was that if it's good (I.E. combat effective), it cannot be TKD, which is quite the opposite.

You have been misinformed, and understand little about true Taekwondo. Taekwondo, taught correctly, is combat effective.

Truly good TKD is just Karate.

You are very much mistaken here, Maarten. I have studied both Taekwondo and Karate (to the level of Black Belt in each) and there is quite a difference. Regardless of the interim confusion over occupational, and post WWII Japanese influence, the real nature of what Taekwondo came to represent is much different than Japanese Karate. If you had in-depth training in genuine Taekwondo from a qualified instructor, you would know this.

I am not talking out of my **** here.

Quite frankly..... yes you are! :moon:

You have obviously had limited knowledge and training in Taekwondo (if any) and that would have been from a poor source. Unfortunately, it appears that the few Dojang that you have personally entered, and witnessed what they do have been of the lesser quality imitation schools.

I studied TKD for years.

In all my years of experience, the most dangerous, and misinformed opinions about Taekwondo come from someone who has "studied TKD for years."

And TKD is not the exception these days, just a glaring example of what MA have been watered down to.

Then it is apparent that you have experienced schools of "watered down" versions of Taekwondo. If you ever get the chance to see the real thing, you would not have such an opinion about Taekwondo as a whole, and you would not make such generalized statements about an entire art.

TKD = STK Karate with useless flashy kicks,

This is absolutely false. It appears more and more that you have little to no training in genuine Taekwondo, because only a color belt, or non-Taekwondoist would hold this opinion. Black Belts know better, and Masters are barely amused by someone spouting such ignorance. Taekwondo is Taekwondo, and nothing else compares exactly to what is involved (especially at the levels of higher Dan Black Belt training). If you think TKD kicks are flashy and useless, you have obviously never been hit by one delivered by an expert. Don't even begin to claim that you have, or that they don't work.

a fabricated history,

Oh..... so your one of those! :lol2:

and General Choi worship added.

I don't worship Gen. Choi (although I admire his life's work and contributions). The narrow view that Korean Taekwondo is just what Gen. Choi taught (especially in the early days of heavy Japanese influence), is very naive and misinformed. Gen. Choi's Taekwon-do was Gen. Choi's Taekwon-do, which is somewhat different in technical curriculum than the "Taekwondo" which represents the Korean National Martial Art (which is also different from the National Martial "Sport").

WTF = ********** *** (**hate speech edited**).

Well, the moderator has already commented, so I will only reply with a question. Have you ever competed in a WTF national or international event? Don't give me excuses as to why you wouldn't. If you have not, then you know nothing of the experience. Games are fun, but Taekwondo games are still deadly. The skills used in Taekwondo "tag" can still end a real fight. You've heard of "tag - you're it!" Well, it can easily become "tag - you're out!" Out cold, that is.
:btg:

I have yet to see a single one.

Herein lies the real problem. It is not what exists or does not exist in Taekwondo. It is an issue of what YOU have or have not seen.

Rapidly poking people with my toes and taking myself off balance is sure to anger multiple opponents.

This statement clearly comes from someone who is NOT an expert in Taekwondo - - guaranteed, without a doubt!

Most TKD schools are **** because they lack those very techniques.

"Most TKD schools" huh? Do you really think you have seen "Most TKD schools?" Do you really think you know what techniques most Taekwondo schools are lacking? Perhaps you have not gone to a Master's level to know what there is yet in Taekwondo. Perhaps the school(s) you trained in were not qualified to teach Taekwondo or were in fact "watered down versions."

I can say for certain that you have never been in my Dojang. :mst:

I can also be quite certain that you have never met, nor trained with any number of the Korean Grandmasters that I have known in my career.

Maarten, the best thing for you to do is to admit that your opinions are based on a limited knowledge, of one person who has witnessed a small fraction of what Taekwondo is, and that fraction did not represent the true essence of the art. Admit that you really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Taekwondo.

I don't mean to sound arrogant, but...
do you really think you know more about Taekwondo than I do? :asian:

Keep it real!
Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart

**Admin. note: Quoted hate speech obscured. G Ketchmark - shesulsa, MT Assist. Admin**

 

[CuongNhuka]

Thank you Shesulsa. Just glad I noticed that something changed on the thread this was one, lol. Just curious, are you going to PM the other folks in this (former) side discussion?

 

[terryl965]

I'm sorry, but these hardly qualify as TKD only techniques. Most TKD schools are **** because they lack those very techniques. And if they were done well it would just end up being Karate, unless they cross trained in something else.

And I consider my life quite the opposite of sheltered, thank you.

Sir it is apparent that you have also never been to my school my TKD teaches all of this and I learn it over in Korea and my Master called it TKD, why are you so hustle over Karate or TKD? I would imagine you have never stepped into a more SD TKD school and have only visited the soft ones. This is a real crime when folks do not take the time to fully understand an Art and start to bash it, instead of trying to understand what it truely is.

I wish you the best in your so call world being shelter is also a crime in life.