How do you defend against this? (Knife Attack)

[Christian Soldier]

So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?

Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.

I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!

The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.

And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.

I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?

 

[Instructor]

Unfortunately I can't watch youtube at the moment so I am not sure what you are seeing.

However I teach barricade style knife defense. Grab a chair or any solid object and hold them at bay like a lion tamer. Work the knees with kicks. If they get past the barricade, control the knife hand and deliver blows to the throat, spine, knees, whatever deadly target you can reach.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Stepping backwards into into a downward stance, low X block on the wrist guiding the attacking hand away from his body. Roll his wrist to bend him at the waist as to go for an armbar, but kick his knee as hard as you can, and ran. However, this does put him in a position that he could wrap you up. So maybe not the greatest. Maybe instead X block and guide his hand across his own body. Guide his hand upward at the same time, spinning with his hand into a horse/riding stance. Bring his wrist downward to your own waist. Unfortunately for him, the back of his elbow will meet up with your shoulder on the way down. The elbow isn't suppose to bend that way. Hopefully you won't throw up from the loud crunching of his elbow next to your ear. I only see either working as a trained response, not something that you might pull off on the fly. Tonight I'll see if they actually work when I get to class, one of the other instructors has a plastic knife.

I can also see downward block on the arm, thumb to eyeball shoving it into his skull. That is much less complicated.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Oh yeah, in that specific video, throw the jacket in his face and side step away from the knife, run like hell.

 

[Cyriacus]

Oh yeah, in that specific video, throw the jacket in his face and side step away from the knife, run like hell.

Optionally, throw the jacket as You bolt off diagonally back and to Your right Economy of fleeing/movement!

As for My family, if He suddenly stops chasing me and goes for Them, I can now attack Him from behind!
And if Theyre at home, and not there, I can run all the way Home and wait in Ambush.
If He is some kind of superhuman who can redirect from Me to My fleeing family members in a blink, I can still get up behind Him, because He inevitably cant go for both of Us. After all - You cant protect Them if Youre rolling on the ground in agony. You need to be alive to do that, and not getting stabbed is a good start.
If He backpedals away from Me towards Them, now Hes on the backstep, and I can rush Him, instead of it being the other way around.

 

[Cyriacus]

Stepping backwards into into a downward stance, low X block on the wrist guiding the attacking hand away from his body. Roll his wrist to bend him at the waist as to go for an armbar, but kick his knee as hard as you can, and ran. However, this does put him in a position that he could wrap you up. So maybe not the greatest. Maybe instead X block and guide his hand across his own body. Guide his hand upward at the same time, spinning with his hand into a horse/riding stance. Bring his wrist downward to your own waist. Unfortunately for him, the back of his elbow will meet up with your shoulder on the way down. The elbow isn't suppose to bend that way. Hopefully you won't throw up from the loud crunching of his elbow next to your ear. I only see either working as a trained response, not something that you might pull off on the fly. Tonight I'll see if they actually work when I get to class, one of the other instructors has a plastic knife.

I can also see downward block on the arm, thumb to eyeball shoving it into his skull. That is much less complicated.

Make sure You try it one lunge away from each other, with the attack coming in in about 1/3rd or less of a second, so that You can try to block the one thrust, then thumb the eye before He can do his 2nd or 3rd wild rapid thrust, assuming He doesnt just spontaneously collapse because His eye hurts

 

[bluewaveschool]

Hurts? No I intend to literally blind him in that eye by shoving it into his skull, not just slightly pushing on it.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hurts? No I intend to literally blind him in that eye by shoving it into his skull, not just slightly pushing on it.

Im aware of this - But hurting His eye doesnt paralyse His arm.

 

[MJS]

So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?

Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.

I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!

The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.

And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.

I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?

There was another clip posted on here, a while back, which depicted the same type of attack. Guy doing the seminar picked a random student and had them do a technique. He then asked him if he thought the tech was good, and then proceeded to pump the knife into him the same way we saw here. Needless to say, the tech went south fast. And yes, in that clip I mentioned, I didn't see any solutions from the guy.

Obviously the no brainer is to get the hell out of there. However, that may not always be possible. The next best option would be to grab something as an equalizer. A rock, a chair, anything, and use it as a distraction, ie: tossing it at the guy and hauling *** in the other direction, or to strike with. Last option of course, is hand to hand. Of course keep in mind that you're probably going to get cut. As for blocking....lets not forget that the badguy will most likely also be using his other hand. How many times do we see the guy with the knife do a thrust or slash, and nothing more? Someone skilled with the blade will be using their other hand as well. So, that said, I"d avoid doing a fancy block, ie: downward or X type block. Instead, I'd do whatever I could, to gain control of the weapon. IMHO, control is the first thing you should worry about. Gain control, work off balancing and counter-strikes, and then a disarm, if possible.

One of my teachers has worked in Corrections for 20+yrs, so I'm always picking his brain about the knife/shank attacks that he's seen. We've worked this many times during training. More times than not, I'm getting 'cut' or 'slashed'. However, I do my best to protect the vitals and gain control. Of course, while I'm doing this, he's trying to regain control of the weapon, moving and throwing strikes. Keeps it a bit more real.

As for a visual reference....I like what these guys do.

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[Gnarlie]

Attempt to chin the fellow with your best shot before he gets that free hand on you. Hit the jawline below the corner of the mouth with a good square contact. Knock him out of possible.

If that doesn't work, try to deflect the weapon arm whilst pushing on the back of the elbow of the arm gripping you and rotating your upper body to move that shoulder of the knife arm out of easy range. This will be difficult while you are being slashed into strips.

You'll get stabbed unless you successfully knock him out in the first second. Everything after that is damage limitation and survival.

You'd need to see it coming. Not easy.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

 

[oftheherd1]

The defender starts off with a good idea but the coat should be thrown or rotated into the attackers eyes as mentioned by Cyriacus. But I wouldn't likely throw it and run. I'm not that fast a runner as when I was young (still pretty good on short bursts though.

)

But knife defense it problematic, as is any weapon defense. It must be practised constantly against an opponent who really wishes to score against you. The best defense is to avoid the attack if possible. When you can't, depending on the type of knife attack, thrust, overhead, right to left, left to right, one must pick a correct defense and use it quickly and forcefully. One must see how the knife is held also. Many of the things mentioned above are good considerations also.

One defense is to step forward (diagonally) to his strong side (side he is holding the knife with), blocking down and side as you turn towards him (with your arm on that side) to deflect his arm. Simultaneously strike his upper arm muscle, close to the bone, with a dragon fist (middle finger protruding from your fist) with your non-blocking arm. Hopefully, you may cause him to drop his knife due to pain. At the least, he will probably give you a split second to consider other options while he adjusts his attack to your new angle. This is a good defense to sudden unexpected attacks, where you have little manuever room.

Since in this case there is warning, perhaps a better one is the same step, turning towards the attacker, but blocking and grabbing his forarm with your arm on the same side as the knife, allowing your hand to slide to his wrist where you grab with all your strength. Simultaneously, and as he pulls back, grab his wrist with your other hand, and jerk his wrist and arm back and to the outside, applying pressure to the back of the wrist with your thumbs, breaking the wrist.

Always be ready for something not to work and to move as rapidly or more so, than your attacker, to block, grab, or retreat.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!

Attend a seminar by Sensei John Kerker and ask. You will receive answers and solutions. I did. I did my very best to perform the 'prison rush' knife attack. My 'attack' failed in spectacular fashion. I would love to describe it to you, but I, as uke, did not get a lot of opportunity to practice it. It was during the end-of-seminar Q&A. But I did understand, very clearly, that a defense is possible and practical.

There will be a seminar on August 10th and 11th in Carson, IA. All ranks and styles are invited. I am not involved, this is not an advertisement - just a recommendation.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Nothing good ever comes to western Kentucky/Southern Indiana.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The number one thing against a bum rush, prison style shanking is to get off line! If you stay on the line the other persons forward movement will overtake you eventually. That does not mean you are done just that now your inside where the knife is and you have more issues to deal with. If you are able to get off line you have the opportunity to strike and gain control and while you can do that from the inside you have more wiggle room for error on the outside. There is no guarantee when you are faced with someone with any weapon/tool. However, there is always a chance to turn the table and that should be your mindset whether it is running away, placing some thing between you and the knife, picking up and object or a tool or simply shooting them! Bottom line you need to be aware that things like this can happen and that you have a chance for survival! Take your chance and turn it into your advantage!

 

[Gentle Fist]

Two to the chest and one to the head... Oh wait are we allowed to be armed?

 

[Rich Parsons]

So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?

The first mistake was awareness by the defender. He did not realize it was in the left hand. The second was to have two hands tied up on one thing. This may work if it is long and being used to keep range, but soft flexible weapons are not good against the committed attacker who is willing to take a shot going in.

Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.

Even in this situation running may not get you away. I know you said not to be considered, but I am saying it might not be a valid solution all the time. One to consider yes, but if they are faster, or surprise you you might be too late. Even though they had their coat of and preparing to use it as defense.

I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!

I have taught beginning techniques before, and people then ask what would I do. It is different, yet not completely. It requires a better timing, using both hands at once, and being aware of the situation and surroundings.

I have taught basic knife defense. That is defense with the knife against the attacker. I can take a total beginner and get them to survive a lot longer than expected. So, the best weapon for self defense against a knife is another knife. NOTE: In all situations where one was pulled on me though, I have never had the time to access, clear and deploy the weapon, while there was a threat. If there is not threat and you deploy have changed the level of force and others can react accordingly.

The point is that you need to start somewhere, and learn basics, and apply the principals to your training and get better and then learn more to improve your odds of survival. Which is why most people who are willing to do some basic training and are serious concerned about this they spend the time with a firearm. Less time and overall skill set required to improve odds of survival.

The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.

You will do what you train, and if you cannot remember it , then you may not be able to train it.

And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.

The sensitivity is key. It really is. It will help you in reading your opponent and their reactions.

I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?

In this particular case, you step right as he is left handed. You place your left hand down, kind of like a down block, but is meant to cam his thrusting arm off line as you are also stepping. i.e. get the heck out of the way and move the blade off line. And yes, you can draw cut back, but this demo did not show this he just kept on thrusting. With the right hand you reach out and check just above their elbow. Then the left hand does what you are trained to do for causing pain. I prefer, a hand jab to throat, and or a finger jab to the eyes. This gets them off balance as you have attacked their eyes or breathing. If they know anything they will access you as someone to not make that mistake again with. Yet, they usually come at you with their best shot. So you hope while you are either staying on their elbow or clearing for room, I prefer staying, they realize they have made a mistake and need to not be where they currently are. Hopefully they decide to leave you alone. If not you keep up and try to cause pain back. Note: Defense only will get you walking backwards and they will keep coming until you make a mistake. If you cause them pain or injury then they may think twice.

Yet, as stated the person who is willing to take pain and or die to get to you is almost impossible to stop, unless you stop them first.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Ok, so we played around with this in the parking lot after class tonight. The X block, while effective at trapping and keeping the hand with the knife, requires a great deal of timing. We decided that a punch/spear finger to the throat would be quicker than attacking the eye, though enough damage to either area would likely get them to drop the knife. The best we came up with was to step off line, throw a hard knee into the ribs and follow with sidekick to the knee. End it with a strike to the head. I'd just re-chamber the sidekick and fire that into their skull.

Someone mentioned shoot him. If you honestly have the speed to draw and fire before the attacker covers that short distance, then we need to change your name to the Waco Kid.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ok, so we played around with this in the parking lot after class tonight. The X block, while effective at trapping and keeping the hand with the knife, requires a great deal of timing. We decided that a punch/spear finger to the throat would be quicker than attacking the eye, though enough damage to either area would likely get them to drop the knife. The best we came up with was to step off line, throw a hard knee into the ribs and follow with sidekick to the knee. End it with a strike to the head. I'd just re-chamber the sidekick and fire that into their skull.

Someone mentioned shoot him. If you honestly have the speed to draw and fire before the attacker covers that short distance, then we need to change your name to the Waco Kid.

I wouldnt rely on the spear finger throat ending it - Unless you feel like being stabbed under the arm.
Punch to the throat? Sure - Again, if You can get it off before being stabbed in the arm or under it. But punching at the throat is fine.
They probably wont drop the knife, but it ought to get them trying to grapple You, rather than furiously swinging Their arm, and thats progress.

Kneeing them in the ribs is good if You can get into that position. Not so much because of the knee, but because it means Youre right up with them, and You can likely restrain Their arm from that range. Possible by pinching their wrist with Your forearm.
But why sidekick the knee, when You could just stomp on it from that range? Since Youre close enough to knee them, You should be able to drive their knee back and lean into it, possibly putting them on their back. Then just get on top of them with your knee on their armed elbow and the other locked out over their torso, and start punching. It seems a bit more practical than turning to either side, limiting Your defensive options if this fellow does something you didnt expect, or if something fails to work. Sure, you could rechamber and kick high, but this still assumes Hes paralysed by fear for some reason.

And i completely agree that shooting them would be futile

 

[Cyriacus]

And i just realised i totally forgot to mention how i think a good way to defend it might be.

Im not sure what the block is called, but you step out with, say, the left foot. You hold your left arm out straight (directionally), but bend it 90 degrees downward at the elbow. So if looked at from your right, it looks like your arm is forming a square with no bottom, with from your elbow down on the right, from your elbow to your shoulder on top, your palm facing away, and your body as the left side. Thats the best description ive got. The right arm comes across like a normal palm block, just in front of your elbow. Now, of course this isnt completely vertical in front of your body. The whole thing is slanted. (I cant find any photos. I figure SOMEONE has to know what its called)
Assuming you block the arm, you use the right hand to grab around the head, and the right leg to knee the body whilst the left hand hopefully prevents them from stabbing you (For the sake of the example, were assuming the attacker is right handed. If not, reverse all my directional names).
You could also do something comparable to an armbar.

Please, someone know the name of that block!

EDIT: Its also kinda like a low guard in boxing, where one hand is at the chin and the other is down at the hip. Only with palms, and off to the side.

 

[72ronin]

There is a very good reason why this question will continue to be asked for years to come. Because there is no single tech that will ever be ranked No1 (or 2 or 3..) for knife defense.

We can find numerous vids of security cam footage showing all kind of things, usually extreme damage and or death, but what is the common denominator.. Absolutely every successful survival has involved a ferocious fightback - no exception.
Which is exactly why once the good teachers show you how almost impossible it really is to execute your movie-fu, they go on to drill - (well, many things but most importantly) exsplosive action on your part.

Easy to write down, damn hard to execute when your body isnt cooperating. Our first battle is in our minds believe it or not, you cannot hesitate, you gotta go and go bloody hard - tooth and nail!. Thats the most important thing you will have in your arsenal, not defense, arsenal. thats my 2 cents lol.

Always good to see this question come up though, because i think it has cross-over to the whole spectrum of self-defense, not just weapons. Train like your life depends on it
cheers.