Questions on knife defence

[Touch Of Death]

Hey guys,
Thank all of you that participated in my tai chi discussion not long ago. I will training at the Chen Village in 6 months time. I will be there for a year. I will post a trip report and put some pics on the board as I go through the trip. I am not sure if they have internet at the village but I will do my best to update you on what's happening in China.

OK, now for my question. Now long ago my kickboxing teacher was teaching the class knife defence moves. Now I don't want to be critical of the guy because he is a good teacher. But some of the moves they were doing in class were just not realistic. I mean the attacker was practially giving himself to the defender to do what he wants with him. It's hilarilous how some people make out the attacker is a complete dummy. This is one reason I have decided to quit kickboxing. I am not trying to insult people doing kickboxing, but KC is more sport then street defence to be honest. This is my opinion. This is the reason I have decided to try Wing Chun instead. Anyway this has nothing to do with the question.

After class had ended I sat in my room thinking about how to do realistic knife defence in the event you can't run. It seems most knife attackers, even the amateurs will not show the knife to you before attempting to attack you with it. So running wouldn't help you all the time. I thought of buying armoured vests/stab proof vests and carrying a walking stick to knock the **** out of the attacker. Ofcourse I am thinking of defence in the event you can't run. I think most of us should be able to run 90% of the time if shown the knife but our egos will prevent us from doing the smart thing. There are some of us though they may get caught because of an injury or something and that will prevent us from running.

Has anyone here done knife defence in class?
Has anyone been confronted before with a knife attacker? if yes what was your move?
Is there any decent art that teaches good effective knife defence. I have seen Kali, escrima and arnis(I think this is how it's spelt). I am not sure how realistic and how useful it is.

THanks guys in anticipation of your reply.

I hope to get losts of replies to the question.

You can what if any instruction to death. You have to learn to walk before you can run. Some knife attacks are done in the heat of passion and the aren't hiding a thing. If your kick boxing intructor gives you a few tips, it is no reason to quit. Its kick boxing for God's sake. At least quit for legitamate reasons.
Sean

 

[searcher]

How effective is systema and krav maga. I mean is it a good enough martial art that will help against getting carved like a thanksgiving turkey?

It wil surely help. I think you should understand that if you get into a knife fight/defense situation, you WILL get cut. If you think you will not get cut then you have been watching to much television.

Krav Maga, just like LOTAR and Hisardut, is combat tested.

 

[dok]

If you go for Krav Maga don't expect to learn useful knife defences in the most immediate future. Level 1 (which lasts anywhere from a couple weeks to a couple months, depending) covers 'some' knife defences, but nothing revolutionary. I'm talking 'outside' attacks - like the infamous overhead-arc-underhand-stab

Krav Maga 'is', however, designed solely and primarily as a self defence system - with a particular focus on multiple attackers. If thats what you're looking for, go for it. I personally think its a lot of fun. You may find there's quite a bit of overlap with kickboxing at first.

speaking of knife defence - I couldnt resist

classic clip

 

[crushing]

We cover knife defenses, but I have never had to use it. My teenage son has though. It wasn't serious incident. A friend of his pulled one of those little plastic picnic knifes on him as a joke and my son used one of the knife defenses to quickly stab the kid in the side with the knife while disarming him. Well, not really stab, the flimsy little plastic knife easily broke in half.

Anyway, it made a pretty big impression on the friend and a couple others (also teens) that witnessed it. Granted, it wasn't a real attack and not at all representative of a street situation.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Streetfighter, being in the UK, perhaps you may know. Didn't the police have some special training in dealing with knife assualts and supposedly their injury rate went why down after this training. Tony Blauer I think was the instructor. You should be able to find some information that may help you, if you can locate his training manual. Hope this helps........

 

[stabpunch]

There is heaps of good info here. I feel that the traditional styles of knife and stick fighting focus on the fact that the other person will be doing the same things. They do provide you with exposure and concepts that are effective and reasonable. You could argue merits all day, technique personal skills enviro factors etc.

If you are seriously concerned with a reality of knife attack. Put on old clothes get some marker pens and ask a friend to draw on you violently. If the person is untrained they will be less predictable and if they can take on the guise of aggression, very hard not to get cut.

Unfortunatley the traditional arts look at the stick/knife fight as duelling. Not that it is fruitless as i say you can learn solid skills and techniques. Some of which are pratical some of which are flashy and showy.

You could never say that one system has the answer. Cross training is alway my suggestion.

If you do not question your style you won't find the questions it does not/cannot answer.

 

[Tez3]

Streetfighter, get yourself off to train with Mo Teague, he's a great guy and a very good instructor. His classes will cover what you want.
http://www.worldcombatarts.co.uk/index.html

 

[pankration]

I was once involved in a street fight that quickly escalated into a crisis. The person I was battling with ran off and came back with two butcher knives, one in each hand. Until that moment I thought I was some king **** karate hero. But when I saw the knives in the hands of this screaming, hysterical maniac I realize there was no way I was going to disarm this man without risking serious injury or even death. I had nowhere to go so I braced myself for the worst. We started screaming at each other and even though I was ready to piss myself, I must have presented a good front because he backed off then ran. Thank god.

If confronted with a knife find something, anything. You need a weapon be it a snub nosed revolver, baseball bat or a rolled up magazine. Knife attacks are more effective close in than a gun so you need any edge you can get. I studied knife fighting and self-defense for years but at crunch time I gave myself little chance of transferring the dojo skills to the street.

 

[Steel Tiger]

The knife is one of the five weapons that we use. Much of our training is actually in attacking with the knife. When it comes to defence it is much easier to comprehend what you are supposed to be doing if you know how the knife is used.

The damn thing is blindingly fast and you will get cut.

Your main objective is to minimise damage and get the hell out of there!

 

[samurai69]

if based in london, then there are a few good SD/Combatives instructors close by.....or they have instructors close by

try Dave Turton, Lee morrison, Den Martin, Mick Coup

all have some great knife defence within their trainings..........and all UK based


the trouble is, IMO, now the attacker is more likely to stick you first then steal your money, where as in the old days as far as muggings went, the knife was used as a threat.............i had a knife held to my throat once, managed to talk the guy down and leave..........but i dont think there was the same threat there as now when i would have been sticked with the knife before even having a chance to talk


.

 

[JerryL]

I considered a couple of responses to the question on a local Systema school. Then I realize that, on top of my rather verbose opinion on systema-vs-knife as a sole art, it's going to vary heavily by instructor.

Go down to the inficidual schools and ask. Watch or participate in a knife and anti-knife workshop / class. Without knowing the individual school, we can't tell you too much. Go see.

 

[tuturuhan]

Good question. Well, it's not like the movies where everything is telegraphed. Please take a lot at the following from a seminar I taught in Italy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi6H7q6b_YU&mode=user&search=

I reply only because you seem to be developing an eye for what is real self defense vs. sport vs. hype. Let me know what you think.

Tuhan Jospeh T. Oliva Arriola
Grandmaster of the Kamatuuran School of Kalijin

 

[Cruentus]

How effective is systema and krav maga. I mean is it a good enough martial art that will help against getting carved like a thanksgiving turkey?

News flash: No martial art will be effective in getting you out of a knife encounter.

Martial arts and tactical programs will give you tools and techniques against knives. They are not all created equal, however, as some techniques are better then others. These are really only the tip of the iceburg, however.

What will get you out of a knife encounter will be superior tactics and winning mindset; this means a willingness to escalate things further then your opponent, and using any means necessary to create more trauma more quickly then your knife weilding attacker. That is of course, assuming that you used every strategy available to not get into a knife encounter in the first place.

That is it. There is no magic solution that any martial art will give you, nor is there any gaurantee that you won't get killed even if you do everything right...

 

[tellner]

Against a knife only G-d, luck or skill will help you. You'll need at least two out of three.

 

[redfang]

Regarding body armor, A lot of armor designed to resist a ballistic round is not designed to stop a knife/stabbing attack. The vest I wear at work does a good job resisting up to about a .45 cal round, but will do little against a stabbing attack.

 

[Flatlander]

OK, now for my question. Now long ago my kickboxing teacher was teaching the class knife defence moves. Now I don't want to be critical of the guy because he is a good teacher. But some of the moves they were doing in class were just not realistic. I mean the attacker was practially giving himself to the defender to do what he wants with him. It's hilarilous how some people make out the attacker is a complete dummy. This is one reason I have decided to quit kickboxing.

I just wanted to speak to this comment briefly.

Blade skills, offensive and defensive, are no different than any other physical skills: those who do not understand them need to begin with very basic concepts, and work their way through to the more intricate. In my experience, a beginner needs to solidify some very basic skills and attributes before they're going to understand more advanced applications. One of the results of this is that, to begin with, partner work needs to be very "big", very "unreal", and very "nobody attacks this way..." Sorry, but that's just how it is.

As the student progresses, the patterns and attributes will begin to flow better, will fit into other patterns and arrangements, and will begin to "tighten up". The patterns become finer, more intricate, and quicker.

At any rate, I can absolutely guarantee you that any respectable blade practitioner didn't start out looking so impressive in their skills. They started out just like everyone else - training with unrealistic, big, slow movements, building their foundation, learning how bodies move and interact. This is the way of things. Progression follows effort, built upon a solid foundation of basics.