Questions on knife defence

[Streetfigher2006]

Hey guys,
Thank all of you that participated in my tai chi discussion not long ago. I will training at the Chen Village in 6 months time. I will be there for a year. I will post a trip report and put some pics on the board as I go through the trip. I am not sure if they have internet at the village but I will do my best to update you on what's happening in China.

OK, now for my question. Now long ago my kickboxing teacher was teaching the class knife defence moves. Now I don't want to be critical of the guy because he is a good teacher. But some of the moves they were doing in class were just not realistic. I mean the attacker was practially giving himself to the defender to do what he wants with him. It's hilarilous how some people make out the attacker is a complete dummy. This is one reason I have decided to quit kickboxing. I am not trying to insult people doing kickboxing, but KC is more sport then street defence to be honest. This is my opinion. This is the reason I have decided to try Wing Chun instead. Anyway this has nothing to do with the question.

After class had ended I sat in my room thinking about how to do realistic knife defence in the event you can't run. It seems most knife attackers, even the amateurs will not show the knife to you before attempting to attack you with it. So running wouldn't help you all the time. I thought of buying armoured vests/stab proof vests and carrying a walking stick to knock the **** out of the attacker. Ofcourse I am thinking of defence in the event you can't run. I think most of us should be able to run 90% of the time if shown the knife but our egos will prevent us from doing the smart thing. There are some of us though they may get caught because of an injury or something and that will prevent us from running.

Has anyone here done knife defence in class?
Has anyone been confronted before with a knife attacker? if yes what was your move?
Is there any decent art that teaches good effective knife defence. I have seen Kali, escrima and arnis(I think this is how it's spelt). I am not sure how realistic and how useful it is.

THanks guys in anticipation of your reply.

I hope to get losts of replies to the question.

 

[Mcura]

You pose a very good question.

I've had the opportunity to play with knife defences with some good instructors. By "play", I mean stabs and cuts with safety weapons (padded or rubber knives, and in one case red markers) and face masks. In just about every chance, I got "killed" pretty badly, but I will say that in every successive class it took a slightly longer time for me to "die". Granted, it was measured in tenths of a second, but it still took longer.

If you've never actually played in the FMA, give it a chance. There's a reason why so many folks in the military and police, as well as private citizens, have taken to these arts. Having said that, there are a lot of instructors out there that aren't necessarily FMA-specific that have a lot to offer in the way of instruction. In the US and Canada, these usually take the form of military-derived systems such as Krav Maga, classic Marine and Army manuals, and Systema. Having said that, the Chinese arts are well represented in the areas of knife and gun defence. For example, Sifu Lo Man Kam has written a manual for the Taiwan National Police that uses Wing Chun as a basis to combat weapons and common thug tactics like haymaker punches.

For reading about the concepts and the mindset behind knife-defence, I'd suggest the writings of Marc "Animal" Macyoung, James Keating, and Kelly Worden. These gentlemen rightly treat knife defence as the serious matter it is (as well as the use of a knife in these situations). They've seen the reality of knives, and encourage using them only for the highest purposes of defending yourself and your family. They also teach, and I find this very important, when not to use the blade.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/
http://www.jamesakeating.com/
http://www.kellyworden.com/

 

[MJS]

Hey guys,
Thank all of you that participated in my tai chi discussion not long ago. I will training at the Chen Village in 6 months time. I will be there for a year. I will post a trip report and put some pics on the board as I go through the trip. I am not sure if they have internet at the village but I will do my best to update you on what's happening in China.

OK, now for my question. Now long ago my kickboxing teacher was teaching the class knife defence moves. Now I don't want to be critical of the guy because he is a good teacher. But some of the moves they were doing in class were just not realistic. I mean the attacker was practially giving himself to the defender to do what he wants with him. It's hilarilous how some people make out the attacker is a complete dummy. This is one reason I have decided to quit kickboxing. I am not trying to insult people doing kickboxing, but KC is more sport then street defence to be honest. This is my opinion. This is the reason I have decided to try Wing Chun instead. Anyway this has nothing to do with the question.

After class had ended I sat in my room thinking about how to do realistic knife defence in the event you can't run. It seems most knife attackers, even the amateurs will not show the knife to you before attempting to attack you with it. So running wouldn't help you all the time. I thought of buying armoured vests/stab proof vests and carrying a walking stick to knock the **** out of the attacker. Ofcourse I am thinking of defence in the event you can't run. I think most of us should be able to run 90% of the time if shown the knife but our egos will prevent us from doing the smart thing. There are some of us though they may get caught because of an injury or something and that will prevent us from running.

Has anyone here done knife defence in class?
Has anyone been confronted before with a knife attacker? if yes what was your move?
Is there any decent art that teaches good effective knife defence. I have seen Kali, escrima and arnis(I think this is how it's spelt). I am not sure how realistic and how useful it is.

THanks guys in anticipation of your reply.

I hope to get losts of replies to the question.

If someone trains for SD, then that is how the training needs to be geared. Resistance needs to be given on the attackers part. Of course running is important, but having some defenseive moves is important as well. A marker, chalk or a no lie blade, are all excellent training tools. I do knife work in my Kenpo class as well as my Arnis class.

The FMAs, IMHO, are an excellent source if you're looking for weapon defense. If there is a school nearby, it would be a good idea to check it out.

There are a few threads in the General SD section that discuss knife defense. There are a few video clips posted there as well.

Mike

 

[bydand]

Yes we do a bit of knife defense in our school. It was one of the things that drew me to the particular school because I had seen it other places, and like you were not impressed. This time it was very realisticly set-up and the instructor didn't wave the knife around like it was a sparkler on the 4th of July.

Secondmajor question, yes I have had 2 instances where someone has pulled a blade and there was no way out. 1st one was just stupid luck on my part - The guy did have it out and showing when he stepped out of the shadows, I looked at the guy and calmly told him if he didn't put it away I was going to take it away and shove it up his rear. Guess he belived me, because he stuffed it in his jacket pocket and took off the other way. Second time I was downstate Maine in the Portland area when same thing happened. Guy stepped around the corner with a hunting knife and told me to hand over my wallet, I reached for the back pocket and came up with a stub nosed .357 instead of my wallet, Had him empty his pockets down the sewer drain then drop his knife down as well.

Have never had to hand-to-hand it with someone with a knife thank God! Nobody is a winner in those situations because 99% of the time, you are going to get cut.

 

[searcher]

The FMAs, IMHO, are an excellent source if you're looking for weapon defense. If there is a school nearby, it would be a good idea to check it out.

Mike

On the money!!! You should check into some FMA seminars. You will be very happy, IMO.

 

[arnisador]

Is there any decent art that teaches good effective knife defence. I have seen Kali, escrima and arnis(I think this is how it's spelt). I am not sure how realistic and how useful it is.

In my biased opinion, the FMAs (and Indonesian martial arts) are among your best bets for this. They raise your odds of surviving...slightly. Some of the RBSD stuff is good too (and oten FMA-influenced where knives are concerned). But a knife is a much more dangerous weapon than people realize, and very hard to deal with in a situation where there is a determined attacker.

While gun attacks are more common than knife attacks in the U.S., knife attacks are a reality; the U.K. is going to great lengths to control knife crime.

 

[MJS]

Secondmajor question, yes I have had 2 instances where someone has pulled a blade and there was no way out. 1st one was just stupid luck on my part - The guy did have it out and showing when he stepped out of the shadows, I looked at the guy and calmly told him if he didn't put it away I was going to take it away and shove it up his rear. Guess he belived me, because he stuffed it in his jacket pocket and took off the other way. Second time I was downstate Maine in the Portland area when same thing happened. Guy stepped around the corner with a hunting knife and told me to hand over my wallet, I reached for the back pocket and came up with a stub nosed .357 instead of my wallet, Had him empty his pockets down the sewer drain then drop his knife down as well.

Glad everything turned out well for you. I bet the look on that guys face was priceless when you pulled out the gun.

Mike

 

[Streetfigher2006]

Well good for you bydand. Unfortunately for us living in London we aren't allowed to walk around carrying guns because the queen says so.

 

[bydand]

It was. But not nearly as shocked as when I made him empty his pockets down the storm drain. That was funny!

 

[Bigshadow]

It was. But not nearly as shocked as when I made him empty his pockets down the storm drain. That was funny!

That was impressive!

 

[Streetfigher2006]

how do you guys feel about body armours?

Also how about premptive strikes?

 

[MJS]

how do you guys feel about body armours?

Redman suits or something similar are IMO very good. I use them on a regular basis with my Kenpo inst.

Also how about premptive strikes?

Pre-emptive strikes are good IMO. There have been some past threads on here, regarding their use. Personally, if its apparent that a physical confrontation is unavoidable, and it seems like the attacker is going to strike you, and you're exhausted all other options, I'm all for a pre-empt. I'd rather not wait until his strike is already in motion, before I act.

Mike

 

[Blindside]

how do you guys feel about body armours?

Also how about premptive strikes?

Body armor as in stab-proof vests and the like? For most people it just isn't practical, knife crime just isn't that likely to warrent it. Some proffessions (correction officers come to mind) it would be a must, but not for most civilians.

Pre-emptive? Pre-empt what? The drawing of the knife? Them attacking with you with the knife? In both cases, I would say yes, but know that most blade arts teach just as much defense with the blade as offense. This assumes to are training for the competant attacker, as you indicated on your first post.

Lamont

 

[Streetfigher2006]

Thanks for the answers guys. I have looked in the local papers and checked the yellow pages and phone books and there isn't a knife fighting art in sight. The only other arts in the area that teach any form of MA apart from the kickboxing I am learning is a Wing chun class, A Taijutsu class, A Northern Eagle claw king fu class (arrogant teacher), A systema class and a Krav maga class.

 

[searcher]

The Krav Maga class should cover knife defense and I am pretty sure that the Systema should also.

 

[Streetfigher2006]

How effective is systema and krav maga. I mean is it a good enough martial art that will help against getting carved like a thanksgiving turkey?

 

[MJS]

How effective is systema and krav maga. I mean is it a good enough martial art that will help against getting carved like a thanksgiving turkey?

I can't speak for Systema, but I can offer a little on KM. Overall, I think that they have some good ideas regarding their knife work. I like the idea of the simultaneous block/counter strike. I've been doing the FMAs for a while, so I tend to lean towards those when it comes to weapons, but if there are no schools in your area, I'd check out the KM school.

Mike

 

[KenpoTex]

You ought to do a search for both Geoff Thompson and Dennis Martin. I'm not sure where exactly in that area their studios are but they would both be awesome to train with. Their stuff has more of a combatives flavor as opposed to TMA.

 

[still learning]

Hello, You will need to add the adrenline factor. Hard to practice for this "panic part"

In most real knife attacks...you will get cut and stab....attacker is going to slice you quickly and in places you do not expect..before going into the killling zone.

Best thing is use your shirt,jacket,belt,shoes,wallet for some protection and creating distance, Off course (anything around you that you can pick-up to use as a weapon or shield). TRY TO ESCAPE AND RUN FASTER THAN ATTACKER.

To go to one on one? UM? You can always get lucky.

We practice alot of different knife defense...but when the other person makes for real...we end up getting cut,(100%) of the time.

Now if the attacker is NOT train for knife fighting...you may have a chance to disarm and give the knife back (place anywhere in the body).

Guns and bats works most times against a knife attacker....using your techniques that you learn in class...UM? Odds will be in the attacker flavor....try this with your friends...have your friend (hold a make believe knife) and have them try to attack you...offer them $5 dollars if they can touch you. BE ready to pay everytime? (no running away)

A knife is a weapon anyone can carry, be hidden until the moment of the attack, and can be use many times too slice,cut,stab,(C-cuts),poke, and thrown.

We use our knife to cut meats and vegatable's, and when camping (forget can opener), we use the knife to open chili cans at the beach.

Other uses of Knife? what is your? ............Aloha

 

[The Lorax]

Body armor really isnt practical for most people. It's hot, heavy, and expensive.

We do some knife training in Aikido, and it works pretty well. I used it once against a girl who was drugged up and threatening people. Things would have been different if she was really trying to hurt me instead of just trying to get me to let her keep the knife. But I felt obligated to take it from her since she got it from me, and I'd feel responsible if anyone else got hurt.