Defence with a knife: To show, or not to show...

[Christian Soldier]

So you guys have established on here a couple times that a knife is a viable self defence weapon in an emergency. I agree.

So, let's say you can see the attacker coming, you have some distance, you can't run away, and you have some kind of knife (folder, box cutter, large fixed blade, etc.) with you.

Do you show it or hide it?

On one hand, showing the knife could make you look less like a victim and the attacker will just run away (Ideal).

On the other hand, brandishing a blade could prod a fight into action.

On yet another hand, the attack could turn vicious and keeping it in your pocket may prevent you from easy access and defence.

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about this and I know a lot of the Reverse grip advocates say that concealing the blade behind you arm is an advantage, I'm not so sure.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

 

[Cyriacus]

The Law will only care so much about how You hold Your knife. How much damage You do in relation to His attack will matter more.

That said, hiding it makes it harder to use efficiently.

 

[MJS]

So you guys have established on here a couple times that a knife is a viable self defence weapon in an emergency. I agree.

So, let's say you can see the attacker coming, you have some distance, you can't run away, and you have some kind of knife (folder, box cutter, large fixed blade, etc.) with you.

Do you show it or hide it?

On one hand, showing the knife could make you look less like a victim and the attacker will just run away (Ideal).

On the other hand, brandishing a blade could prod a fight into action.

On yet another hand, the attack could turn vicious and keeping it in your pocket may prevent you from easy access and defence.

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about this and I know a lot of the Reverse grip advocates say that concealing the blade behind you arm is an advantage, I'm not so sure.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

I would strongly suggest that the situation fits, before you use a knife for SD. Simply pulling it out for the sake of intimidation, could land you in jail.

 

[Instructor]

Simply holding a knife isn't exactly the same as brandishing it to intimidate.

 

[MJS]

Simply holding a knife isn't exactly the same as brandishing it to intimidate.

My sister works at a small store, with a handful of employees. Guy walks in, who she, as well as other employees, have had issues with. My sister was on a register. She is also one of the asst. mgrs. at this place. Sees this guy come in, and rather than deal with his usual ****, has another kid come over, open a register, and take this guy, as well as others, who're standing in line, because it happened to be busy at that moment. Guy sees this and starts to mutter something, basically pulling the race card BS. My sister tried to explain that had nothing to do with it, mainly because he's cashed him out in the past.

Guy starts being a bigger ******* than he normally is, and puts on his macho suit, and starts walking towards my sister. Kid who was ringing the register gets in between them. He reaches into his pocket and pulls out a small pocketknife, simply holding it. Guy now turns into the ***** that he really is, and calls the cops. Long story short: Mr. Macho gets arrested for the disturbance as well as outstanding warrants. Kid who went to the defense of my sister got arrested for simply taking the knife out. Oh yeah, and the Dist. Mgr. of the store fired the kid too.

Crazy? Sure. After all, the kid was simply holding it. This guy most likely made it out to be bigger than it really was, however, in the end, it was the cops decision.

 

[frank raud]

So you guys have established on here a couple times that a knife is a viable self defence weapon in an emergency. I agree.

So, let's say you can see the attacker coming, you have some distance, you can't run away, and you have some kind of knife (folder, box cutter, large fixed blade, etc.) with you.

Do you show it or hide it?

On one hand, showing the knife could make you look less like a victim and the attacker will just run away (Ideal).

On the other hand, brandishing a blade could prod a fight into action.

On yet another hand, the attack could turn vicious and keeping it in your pocket may prevent you from easy access and defence.

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about this and I know a lot of the Reverse grip advocates say that concealing the blade behind you arm is an advantage, I'm not so sure.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

brandishing a blade could prod a fight into action. If there is no fight,why are you brandishing a blade? Hard to justify using lethal force if there is no cause. Do you think an attacker will see a knife and think"OK it's on!"

The advantage of concealing your knife behind your arm(or leg) is that it remains a surprise to your attacker, it doesn't appear threatening to a bystander(He had a knife! And he was waving it in the other guy's face!) and it is readily accessible if bad things go down. It doesn't need to be in reverse grip to conceal it.

 

[rickster]

A knife is like a gun (sort of)

You dont brandish it.

You use it only when you really need it

 

[Supra Vijai]

brandishing a blade could prod a fight into action. If there is no fight,why are you brandishing a blade? Hard to justify using lethal force if there is no cause. Do you think an attacker will see a knife and think"OK it's on!"

The advantage of concealing your knife behind your arm(or leg) is that it remains a surprise to your attacker, it doesn't appear threatening to a bystander(He had a knife! And he was waving it in the other guy's face!) and it is readily accessible if bad things go down. It doesn't need to be in reverse grip to conceal it.

What he said.

Grabbing a knife as an equalizer? Fine. Pulling a knife out when there is no fight means you lose all ability to use self defense as a plea when the actual fight is over.

I'd highly recommend getting a copy of Facing Violence by Lt. Rory Miller and reading over it a few times. I've had the pleasure of doing just that recently and it's been a total eye opener from both sides of the legal fence so to speak as well as exploring the psychology of violence and it's aftermath. As with all my posts on weapons and related matters though, I'm going to reiterate the best thing you can do is to study and understand your local laws concerning these matters because at the end of the day it's not worth scaring off a potential threat with a knife only to end up imprisoned because you didn't exercise your duty of retreat or for unlawful possession.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I haven't been in such a situation but I've read the story of a guy on the CS forum (unfortunately I can't remember where) where he and his wife were walking out of a theater when a group of older teenage guys were looking for a fight and started to surround them, he pulled out a knife, convinceing them they really didn't want a fight and the belligerents ran away. In this scenerio, if he had kept the knife hidden and only used it when they attacked, he might have seriously injured or killed one of the guys.

From your post, I've learned that it's largely situationally dependant. If you guys have any wisdom or insight on what situations you would do what, that would be helpfull. Thanks!

 

[Supra Vijai]

I haven't been in such a situation but I've read the story of a guy on the CS forum (unfortunately I can't remember where) where he and his wife were walking out of a theater when a group of older teenage guys were looking for a fight and started to surround them, he pulled out a knife, convinceing them they really didn't want a fight and the belligerents ran away. In this scenerio, if he had kept the knife hidden and only used it when they attacked, he might have seriously injured or killed one of the guys.

From your post, I've learned that it's largely situationally dependant. If you guys have any wisdom or insight on what situations you would do what, that would be helpfull. Thanks!

I take it this was in response to the post by MJS?

My personal self defense strategies are as follow: stay away from areas known for trouble, keep my wits about me and remain alert when out even if that means not drinking as much as my friends (and especially if they've been drinking), not look like an easy target, practice verbal de-escalation and pre-emptive striking as much as I can should I ever need it, take charge of any group I'm in and leaving any situation where things seem iffy and making sure everyone I'm with gets out as well no matter how unpopular that makes me at the time and being sure to know my rights and local laws.

Knock on wood, I've never been in a confrontation involving weapons so honestly I don't know what I'd do in that situation. Hopefully some training would kick in even if it was just getting things in the way as a barrier and getting the hell out of there. My ego isn't worth as much as my life

 

[frank raud]

I haven't been in such a situation but I've read the story of a guy on the CS forum (unfortunately I can't remember where) where he and his wife were walking out of a theater when a group of older teenage guys were looking for a fight and started to surround them, he pulled out a knife, convinceing them they really didn't want a fight and the belligerents ran away. In this scenerio, if he had kept the knife hidden and only used it when they attacked, he might have seriously injured or killed one of the guys.

From your post, I've learned that it's largely situationally dependant. If you guys have any wisdom or insight on what situations you would do what, that would be helpfull. Thanks!

Hopefully you can see a difference between drawing a weapon AFTER being threatened and surrounded by a group of thugs, and brandishing a weapon prior to an engagement.

 

[Elite09g8]

I showed it! my Sog trident tanto (folding knife) and a kubaton!


i was headed to my car late at night by myself in Dec. 2011, when 1 man got out of a car and threatend to beat the 'crap' out of me... For what? I didnt bother even asking, i just dropped the grocerys in my one hand. The keys with the kubaton already in the left hand (i usually have it in my hand, especially at night), i held it up to the first guy, and told him 'back off!' didnt do the trick, in fact he kinda looked at me like whats that? Haha is that suppose to scare me kinda look? i saw another man in the car about 2 times bigger then me, 300lb give or take, me im (170lb 5'8), he gets out and thats when i yelled 'stay in the ******* car!' i put my hand on the back of my belt and whipped out my knife and told him and his buddy 'i dont need either of the weapons to kick both of your 'butts'' and told them i was a black belt and both put their hands up and told me to 'just chill with the knife dude' i decide to put the knife away when they complied to stop approaching me. i told them to get back to their car and drive away.


they left, however after i thought about what i did that night, i regret having to pull the knife before i needed too...


Oddly enough i forgot the most important thing, im a 2nd degree black belt! I dont need a knife to protect myself! even tho i felt very threatened at the moment.


to this day i keep my knife in the car because if they called the cops its both of their words against my own and because i dont need it


Its just very hard to tell what a person, even yourself, will do while being threatened.

 

[Cyriacus]

I showed it! my Sog trident tanto (folding knife) and a kubaton!


i was headed to my car late at night by myself in Dec. 2011, when 1 man got out of a car and threatend to beat the 'crap' out of me... For what? I didnt bother even asking, i just dropped the grocerys in my one hand. The keys with the kubaton already in the left hand (i usually have it in my hand, especially at night), i held it up to the first guy, and told him 'back off!' didnt do the trick, in fact he kinda looked at me like whats that? Haha is that suppose to scare me kinda look? i saw another man in the car about 2 times bigger then me, 300lb give or take, me im (170lb 5'8), he gets out and thats when i yelled 'stay in the ******* car!' i put my hand on the back of my belt and whipped out my knife and told him and his buddy 'i dont need either of the weapons to kick both of your 'butts'' and told them i was a black belt and both put their hands up and told me to 'just chill with the knife dude' i decide to put the knife away when they complied to stop approaching me. i told them to get back to their car and drive away.


they left, however after i thought about what i did that night, i regret having to pull the knife before i needed too...


Oddly enough i forgot the most important thing, im a 2nd degree black belt! I dont need a knife to protect myself! even tho i felt very threatened at the moment.


to this day i keep my knife in the car because if they called the cops its both of their words against my own and because i dont need it


Its just very hard to tell what a person, even yourself, will do while being threatened.

Are You sure You didnt defeat them with a blend of Confusion and a Knife?

 

[Supra Vijai]

Are You sure You didnt defeat them with a blend of Confusion and a Knife?

I was wondering how to reply....

 

[Chris Parker]

To address the OP.

There are no hard and fast rules, and if you're looking for them, you've missed the point. In other words, as the situation dictates or requires. What works in one situation is suicidal in another... or has you in jail for many years. The best advice is to understand the realities of potential action (and inaction), and work to maintain a calm mind under adrenaline so you can apply any action as needed.

I showed it! my Sog trident tanto (folding knife) and a kubaton!


i was headed to my car late at night by myself in Dec. 2011, when 1 man got out of a car and threatend to beat the 'crap' out of me... For what? I didnt bother even asking, i just dropped the grocerys in my one hand. The keys with the kubaton already in the left hand (i usually have it in my hand, especially at night), i held it up to the first guy, and told him 'back off!' didnt do the trick, in fact he kinda looked at me like whats that? Haha is that suppose to scare me kinda look? i saw another man in the car about 2 times bigger then me, 300lb give or take, me im (170lb 5'8), he gets out and thats when i yelled 'stay in the ******* car!' i put my hand on the back of my belt and whipped out my knife and told him and his buddy 'i dont need either of the weapons to kick both of your 'butts'' and told them i was a black belt and both put their hands up and told me to 'just chill with the knife dude' i decide to put the knife away when they complied to stop approaching me. i told them to get back to their car and drive away.


they left, however after i thought about what i did that night, i regret having to pull the knife before i needed too...


Oddly enough i forgot the most important thing, im a 2nd degree black belt! I dont need a knife to protect myself! even tho i felt very threatened at the moment.


to this day i keep my knife in the car because if they called the cops its both of their words against my own and because i dont need it


Its just very hard to tell what a person, even yourself, will do while being threatened.

I was wondering how to reply....

Oh, that's an easy one to reply to. There's nothing really unusual about the post, really. High adrenaline situation where the unconscious looks for it's most powerful option, which in this case was a weapon or two (knife and kubotan), as well as a fair amount of forced bravado. The antagonists were looking for a soft, or easy target, so chose someone smaller (and carrying groceries, therefore both hands were occupied), and didn't want to risk someone who might fight back. Monkey dance one, bad guys zero, really. I wouldn't advise yelling "I'm a black belt", though. But what's obvious is that the training that Elite has gone through wasn't (unconsciously) recognized as powerful enough to rely on... so he upped the stakes. It really could have gone either way... and honestly, if he didn't have the weapons out, saying he was a black belt would have more likely egged the bad guys on, not intimidated them. A black belt just doesn't have the mystique it used to have, for a number of reasons... quite a few of which are valid.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Oh, that's an easy one to reply to. There's nothing really unusual about the post, really. High adrenaline situation where the unconscious looks for it's most powerful option, which in this case was a weapon or two (knife and kubotan), as well as a fair amount of forced bravado. The antagonists were looking for a soft, or easy target, so chose someone smaller (and carrying groceries, therefore both hands were occupied), and didn't want to risk someone who might fight back. Monkey dance one, bad guys zero, really. I wouldn't advise yelling "I'm a black belt", though. But what's obvious is that the training that Elite has gone through wasn't (unconsciously) recognized as powerful enough to rely on... so he upped the stakes. It really could have gone either way... and honestly, if he didn't have the weapons out, saying he was a black belt would have more likely egged the bad guys on, not intimidated them. A black belt just doesn't have the mystique it used to have, for a number of reasons... quite a few of which are valid.

Ahh that makes sense. My comment wasn't meant to sound sarcastic or condescending - which it sorta does looking back at it out of the context of my own head - so my apologies to Elite if that's how it came across. My issue was more the risk involved in introducing weapons or pulling out the black belt card which as you mentioned can be the catalyst for a situation to escalate rapidly.

The other thing that stuck out was keeping the knife in the car should the police ever become involved. It's still in close enough proximity generally to rule out that it had ever been present during the confrontation described which as I understand it doesn't do a whole lot for the "defense" side of things?

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, having the knife nearby (but not using it) doesn't help if there are legal issues with having it in the first place. For us (Victoria, Australia), there needs to be a reason for the knife to be present, and "self defense" isn't one.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Thanks guys.

Chris, it's a knife, they are supposed to have thousands of uses, I'm sure you can think of at least one if you had to to tell any kind of judicial system.

I do know the difference between a heated argument and a confrontation. This scenario was just blatantly obvious it's going to be a confrontation. I guess I'll figure it out when I get there.


And yeah, I agree about the black belt thing. Too many kids (litterally kids) and adults boast about that kind of thing and any kind of arrogant belligerent (which is pretty much all of them) will want to have the story of how he whooped a black belt.

Verbal communication makes a big difference, and can be more influnecial on a fight than any blade.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Thanks guys.

Chris, it's a knife, they are supposed to have thousands of uses, I'm sure you can think of at least one if you had to to tell any kind of judicial system.

I do know the difference between a heated argument and a confrontation. This scenario was just blatantly obvious it's going to be a confrontation. I guess I'll figure it out when I get there.


And yeah, I agree about the black belt thing. Too many kids (litterally kids) and adults boast about that kind of thing and any kind of arrogant belligerent (which is pretty much all of them) will want to have the story of how he whooped a black belt.

Verbal communication makes a big difference, and can be more influnecial on a fight than any blade.

That doesn't fly over here I'm afraid. I know people who have copped $1000 fines for carrying a box cutter in their bag because they use it for work. They weren't however going to work at the time and had simply not bothered to unpack it so the excuse was not accepted. From memory first strike over here is a monetary fine, second and any subsequent strikes are jail time. The same applies for our martial arts training gear - even the wooden stuff - so we generally need to have some proof of belonging to a club or organization and be en route to training or home from training to be allowed to carry the stuff without penalty. A few students at my school (myself included) have taken to transporting our gear in rifle cases with 3 separate locks that have the school logo matching our membership cards clearly displayed on the side as an added precaution for this. Even then, we'd think twice about having our metal training folders out in the open in the case as it's a whole new headache and we'd rather not deal with it.

As for the part about verbal communication, yeah, agreed it makes a big difference but as I understand it, it's about knowing when to verbalize and more importantly, how and what to verbalize. Every time you engage an opponent in a discussion you run the risk of getting into the monkey dance mentioned above or accidentally bruising the other person's ego in some fashion and escalating the whole thing, not to mention the fact that your brain is so focused on what is being said that you can miss their friend moving into position or launching an attack.

 

[MJS]

I haven't been in such a situation but I've read the story of a guy on the CS forum (unfortunately I can't remember where) where he and his wife were walking out of a theater when a group of older teenage guys were looking for a fight and started to surround them, he pulled out a knife, convinceing them they really didn't want a fight and the belligerents ran away. In this scenerio, if he had kept the knife hidden and only used it when they attacked, he might have seriously injured or killed one of the guys.

From your post, I've learned that it's largely situationally dependant. If you guys have any wisdom or insight on what situations you would do what, that would be helpfull. Thanks!

As I said, laws will differ from state to state. I'm sharing what happened where I live. Use of force laws will come into play. You don't see a LEO draw down on an unarmed person, do you? They have a use of force policy to follow. Perhaps something along the lines of empty hand first, OC, taser, baton, etc. Again, depending on the state, and since you're in a situation where you're outnumbered, as you describe above, pulling the knife may be justified. But, if its not, and those kids ran off and called the cops...well, you see where I'm going with this?