How can you become a good fighter if self-defense is your goal?

[skribs]

I dislike blowhards, whiners, and hypocrites, and always have.

You should probably talk to someone about that. Self-hate can be incredibly bad for your physical and mental health.

 

[Steve]

I say:

I'd be very interested in an experiment where sport TKD guys and non-sport TKD guys get in a ring and with some reasonable rules just see what's what. By reasonable, I mean, safe, but full contact and favoring the TKD skill set. Try to keep the level of experience, size, etc as fair as possible. I think that would be very interesting.

My money is that, by a large margin, in a competition that tests TKD skills (kicking, punching, maybe take downs) the sport folks will adapt to full contact much faster than the non-sport guys. That's my theory.

Then you try to start some **** by putting words in my mouth (btw, starting **** is code for trolling):

You apparently assume that TKD schools that are not sport oriented do not do full contact sparring. Do you have a basis for that assumption? Because it certainly doesn't match my own experience.

I said:

Not assuming anything. I'm proposing what I think would be an interesting experiment and sharing my hypothesis.

Note that, to this point, I've not mentioned sparring at all. It's just not relevant. But you're still trying to start some ****, so you double down on what you want me to have said:

Seems like you are, since you say they must "adapt" to full contact. What you're describing sounds to me like what we call "sparring" so there really wouldn't be any adaptation needed.

How you train is literally not the point. The point is to cut through the BS and try to get at some objective data. I said:

yeah, well, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not inclined to take your word for it. I think it would be very informative.

And then I thought, you know... he'll twist this around, so I'll try to add a little more context, whcih is below:

You're stating the obvious. The question isn't what they train. The question is which training model is building proficiency that is more adaptible to a different context. Why are you getting defensive about this?

My theory is it would go very much the way grappling would go between sport grapplers (wrestlers, judoka, sambo, bjj etc) and non sport grapplers (eg, aikidoka, ninja, etc), and untrained grapplers as a control. Similar to the tkd, I would guess the competitors would do very well, but I would be very interested in how well the untrained guys do against the non competitive guys.

edit, The point of the exercise is to isolate the trained skills, not highlight what isn’t trained. So for tkd, grappling might be off limits. But for grappler, I think striking would be fine provided everyone had minimal formal training in striking.

You're not interested in the discussion. Just getting your troll on, so you say, "Are you calling me a liar?" Which is hilarious, because that's what the drunks in B-movies like Roadhouse say when they're trying to start a fight. Classic:

Wait. You're not inclined to take my word for my own experience? Are you saying I'm lying about how we spar?

So, then I just called you on your blatant trolling. And then I addressed the point, just pretending that you're posting in good faith. Which, come on. We all know you're not.

Nope. I'm saying you're trolling, which as a moderator is a bad look.

When I say I don't trust you on the subject, what that means to people who aren't trolling (i.e., everyone but you) is that, regardless of what you believe or assert, the idea is to actually find out. That's kind of the entire point. I've shared my hypothesis, which is that the non-sport guys would not do as well. You seem to be suggesting that the non-sport guys would do just as well or better. Great. I think it would be very interesting to find out. I think the outcome is very predictable. The only thing I really think is in question is how the non-sport guys would do against folks with no training.

Which leads to this:

How is saying "that's how we spar" trolling?

I know from your posts that you are a very linear thinker who is uncomfortable with nuance and ambiguity. So, hopefully, the dots are very clear to you.

I have no opinion on how they would do. That's why I didn't voice one. I merely stated that your hypothesis appears to be flawed, in that it includes the built in assumption that non-sport schools don't spar with contact. You seem awfully touchy about that.

Well, I think it's clear from the words actually printed above that this is quite literally not what you wrote. Frankly, I think you're just bored and figured you'd stir the pot a little.

 

[Steve]

You should probably talk to someone about that. Self-hate can be incredibly bad for your physical and mental health.

Good one. I'd better get some burn cream!

 

[dvcochran]

Sure. TKD kicking technique is amazing.

But modern sport tkd is a whole different animal. It's a lot of tip tapping with no punching defence..as it's really not needed.

Most TKD competition is kick heavy this is the emphasis. But this narrative that there is no punching is just not true. There is a ton of punching strategy used to keep an opponent off balance. And competitive TKD sparring is anything but tip tapping.
Most likely what you saw was an unsanctioned points tournament. Most every style out there has these kinds of tournaments at certain levels. Not a bad thing.

 

[skribs]

@Steve

"adapt to full contact much faster than the non-sport guys. That's my theory."

Full-contact sparring is full contact. @Dirty Dog saying he does full contact sparring is a direct response to what you said. He didn't put any words in your mouth. He responded to the words you said.

You didn't say the word "sparring". But you did say full contact. And he is talking of the training that includes full contact.

You're accusing him of trolling, when at worst it's a miscommunication. You're accusing a lot of people of a lot of things in this thread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now you're making it about me. It's very simple. Stick to the topic of the thread. But for what it's worth, as topics recur on the site, I like to go back and re-read past threads on the same topic. I enjoy reading the discussions, which often include many of my own posts. Unfortunately for you (or maybe for me), I'm very consistent. My posting style hasn't changed much, if at all. I dislike blowhards, whiners, and hypocrites, and always have. I'm always on someone's **** list. It's okay, even if it's arbitrary.

At some point, when you get back to addressing the post and not making everything about you, it will amaze you how fast your blood pressure drops.

Maybe take your own advice sometime, Steve.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I completely disagree. Sparring can be training for sport or training to fight. Or a mix of both.

If I spar you with the intent of practicing my techniques for self-defense, I don't think there's much sport involved.

Do you have any clip to show that a SD sparring suppose to look like?

 

[Steve]

@Steve

"adapt to full contact much faster than the non-sport guys. That's my theory."

Full-contact sparring is full contact. @Dirty Dog saying he does full contact sparring is a direct response to what you said. He didn't put any words in your mouth. He responded to the words you said.

You didn't say the word "sparring". But you did say full contact. And he is talking of the training that includes full contact.

You're accusing him of trolling, when at worst it's a miscommunication. You're accusing a lot of people of a lot of things in this thread.

Hey. I'm sure your sparring is great. It's just not relevant. I have no reason to doubt you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My money is that, by a large margin, in a competition that tests TKD skills (kicking, punching, maybe take downs) the sport folks will adapt to full contact much faster than the non-sport guys. That's my theory.

Here's what you said, @Steve. And I commented on only this part. That statement includes the built in assumption that they're not already doing full contact. Because who needs to adapt to what they're already doing?

 

[Steve]

Maybe take your own advice sometime, Steve.

ah, the "I know you are but what am I?" Gambit.

 

[Steve]

Here's what you said, @Steve. And I commented on only this part. That statement includes the built in assumption that they're not already doing full contact. Because who needs to adapt to what they're already doing?

yup, that's my hypothesis. And, as I said, I don't think your assurance would be nearly as informative as actually seeing how it plays out. My hypothesis is that you're incorrect. Maybe I'm right,; maybe I'm wrong. That's why doing the actual excercise would be so interesting.

 

[skribs]

Do you have any clip to show that a SD sparring suppose to look like?

No. We don't play with cameras during class.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No. We don't play with cameras during class.

Can you describe it by words?

 

[JowGaWolf]

No. We don't play with cameras during class.

Hopefully that will change. Cameras are great tools. just get a tripod and put the camera in the corner and let it run. That way corrections can be made on things that couldn't be seen at the time. The camera catches a great deal and is brutally honest.

 

[drop bear]

I totally agree. That would be my expectation. And to be clear, I'm talking about two large groups of roughly equivalent TKD practitioners with no advance warning, roughly the same age, size, experience level, fitness level etc. In fact, for control, let's add in a group of untrained people. Then in some way (random or round robin), just see how they do. In my mind, I would think we'd need at least 50 in each group.

Edit: to reiterate, I think the sport guys would perform very well overall, because they would have more opportunity to develop the timing, etc. What I am very curious to see how well the non-sport guys do again the sport guys, and also how well the untrained guys do against the non-sport guys.

I think the issue you will face with sports tkd is this idea that the sport no longer reflects fighting.

If you got TKDers who also do kickboxing. (And I know a few) the dynamics are going to change a bit.

 

[drop bear]

edit, The point of the exercise is to isolate the trained skills, not highlight what isn’t trained. So for tkd, grappling might be off limits. But for grappler, I think striking would be fine provided everyone had minimal formal training in striking.

Shoot boxing with 16 ounce gloves is a pretty good tool to play around with this.

 

[Steve]

I think the issue you will face with sports tkd is this idea that the sport no longer reflects fighting.

If you got TKDers who also do kickboxing. (And I know a few) the dynamics are going to change a bit.

Maybe so. I think it's am interesting situation because they would both be stretching. Who's more adaptible? I genuinely wish we could make this happen.

 

[skribs]

Can you describe it by words?

Sometimes it's just squaring off against your partner and using your skills. Sometimes it's scenario based (i.e. one partner plays the aggressor, and the other responds to that aggression, and then the sparring starts).

 

[Martial D]

Most TKD competition is kick heavy this is the emphasis. But this narrative that there is no punching is just not true. There is a ton of punching strategy used to keep an opponent off balance. And competitive TKD sparring is anything but tip tapping.
Most likely what you saw was an unsanctioned points tournament. Most every style out there has these kinds of tournaments at certain levels. Not a bad thing.

Not buying it man. I know there is what approximates punching in tkd, but number one there are no strikes to the head in tkd competition or sparring(the primary target of good punching technique), so most that train like that would have no clue what to do about someone that punches well, and number two there is so little emphasis on the rather antiquated hand techniques that are there that even if they were near par with something like boxing technique wise( they patently are not), the lack of focus on them would leave ones that train in such a minimal way unprepared to deal with incoming hand strikes to the head.

TKD contains good kicking technique, but let's keep the discussion honest here.

 

[skribs]

TKD contains good kicking technique, but let's keep the discussion honest here.

Should we start now? Or should we wait for you to finish giving us your incredibly narrow-minded opinion before the honesty starts?