higher ranked people having trouble with lower ranks not listening

[zendokai guy]

i am a first degree and latley i am finding that alot of newer students or lower raked students just dont want to follow instructions... and mind you talking back, thinking that they can do it better.

anyone that i teach that listens and gets the points really go far and progress rather quickley.

also when there are lower ranks that dont listen but do a diffrent style but are all under the same corpration.

in these times i am not sure on how to uphold the dojo law and still follow the sempai oath and the bushido code.
i feel like i have to be gentle with this situation and let it come with time but some time i also feel like the only way to get respect is to get into them and show them that what i do works and that i have the time and knowledge to deal with it

basiclly i want to know how to conduct myself with these people and what i should do about them.

sempai marco...

 

[Sukerkin]

The first thing to remember is that first dan is only the visible sign that you, yourself, have learned how to learn - that you have reached the end of the beginning, as Churchill would say .

Having been on that journey, you have no doubt seen that there are some that simply do not wish to learn; either because it is too hard or because they think that they know better.

The first category can be encouraged and some may indeed begin to apply themselves and progress. The second you can do little with other than show them what your art contains and how it can be used. There are some in that group that might respond to being physically 'put in their place' but the more likely reaction would be for them to flounce out, still misguidedly thinking that they are right.

If they won't listen then it is perfectly fine to either get them to leave or leave them to wither on the vine (concentrate your efforts on those that do want to learn). Again, a proportion of those that are 'disruptive' can turn around if they are ignored or 'passed over'.

The ultimate litmus test, of course, for what you should do, is what your seniors decide. There is no shame in asking how best to pass on what you have learned or the fashion in which dojo discipline should be maintained.

 

[terryl965]

First off do you have a set of written rules for the class, if so remind your fellow students that these ruls need to be followed at all times when working out with all instructors. Remember people experimenting on a certain technique is a good thing, this way you as the instructor can go and show them why your way is better and what the differences are between what they did compared to yours. Last thing have an open mind to other ways to do said techniques what migt work for you may never work for someone else.

 

[MJS]

i am a first degree and latley i am finding that alot of newer students or lower raked students just dont want to follow instructions... and mind you talking back, thinking that they can do it better.

anyone that i teach that listens and gets the points really go far and progress rather quickley.

also when there are lower ranks that dont listen but do a diffrent style but are all under the same corpration.

in these times i am not sure on how to uphold the dojo law and still follow the sempai oath and the bushido code.
i feel like i have to be gentle with this situation and let it come with time but some time i also feel like the only way to get respect is to get into them and show them that what i do works and that i have the time and knowledge to deal with it

basiclly i want to know how to conduct myself with these people and what i should do about them.

sempai marco...

How old are the people in question? One of the many things that I learned when I started teaching, was that no matter what age group you're teaching, you need to keep everyones attention, because once you lose it, its very hard to get it back.

One thing that may help you, is to have a class plan already in place. For example...if your class is 60min long, spend 10min doing warmups. From there, you can move on to the main portion of the class. My past schools, had set days for certain material, so say on a Mon. it was all beginner classes, so after the warmup, it was straight into rank required material. My idea usually pertains to days when its an open class. Back to the lesson plan...

After warmups, you could move into strikes. This can be done in the air or on pads. Lets say you do this for 20min. You're already halfway to the end. Spend 10min on kata. Have everyone start off together, and as each person reaches the end of the katas that they know, they sit down. To end off, you can do techniques.

This is just one example of many. Of course, you want the plan to be flexable. In other words, there were days when I was planning for a big class, and only 8 people showed up. The plan needs to be adjustable enough to compensate for that.

It may also help if you had someone else to help you. Of course dont always rely on that, and be prepared to teach a 20+ person class on your own. If you had helpers, it'd be easier to break into groups. Lets say you had 2 other people to help you. The first person could run a kata station, the 2nd person a technique station, and you could run one for the basics, ie: punches, kicks, etc. After a set amount of time, everyone rotates.

Now....for the ages of the people. If you're dealing with kids, its really simple. You tell them once. If they don't listen, you remove them from the class. And yes, parents may question you when you do that, either when you do it, interupting your class, or afterwards. Either way, it was made clear to them that I was not there to babysit, but to teach. The childs behavior is rude, disruptive and its taking away from the kids that are behaving. I always had the full support of the Head Inst. at the school, so if what I was saying didn't work, he would take over. It was usually a non issue, due to the fact that it was made clear that people are here to learn. If your child can't or wont do that, then perhaps they should come back when they're old enough.

As for teens....treat them the same as the smaller kids. They're older and should know better.

Adults....I usually had no issues with people. If someone really started going on a tangent about whether or not something would work, I'd do my best to explain it to them during class. If that didn't work, I'd tell them that I'd work with them afterwards. If all else fails, and they're still not taking that as an answer, then sadly, a few times, I'd have to make an example of them in front of everyone. I'd use them as the uke, have them attack me and do the tech. on them, and usually that solved the issue. Many times during that demo, they'd try to foil my tech., but I'd simply just work with whatever they did. It was funny because there were a few times, when, once they discovered that it was THEM that I was using, suddenly they tried to back peddal. I"d have them come up, because afterall, it was them that doubted the tech., so if you really want to see it work, try to hit me.

Now, while this may sound mean, I was not abusing the student. But, IMO, sometimes feeling is believing. Obviously this method is reserved for someone older. Would I do this with a teen? Sure. Of course, I'm not going to kick them thru the wall, nor am I going to put someone in the ER. It is possible to do a tech. hard, make hard contact and not seriously injure someone.

Adults should know better, so if I had an issue with anyone, I'd usually address it with them privately.

As I said, once you loose the attention, its hard to get back. People will test you, and see how much they can get away with before you do anything. Its best to nip anything and everything ASAP. Of course, prior to the new student joining in, the rules of the school were made clear to them, as well as parents, if it was a child. The majority of the time, any issues were resolved quickly.

I hope that helped.

 

[Akira]

In some muay thai gyms I've trained in, if you don't pull your head in and respect/listen to your trainer, you get a beating in the ring ('sparring' with one of the senior/more experienced fighters). May not be practical in your situation however.

 

[dancingalone]

i am a first degree and latley i am finding that alot of newer students or lower raked students just dont want to follow instructions... and mind you talking back, thinking that they can do it better.

basiclly i want to know how to conduct myself with these people and what i should do about them.

Respect has to be earned; it's not given automatically in our society.

I played football in high school with a guy I'll call 'Joe'. Joe was not a star on the team, but he busted his butt every day in practice, never shirking, never complaining, and when he got a chance to play, he played to the best of his ability. He rarely spoke up but when he did everyone listened. Joe was elected a team captain his senior season despite never being a full-time starter because he had the respect of every single player and coach on the team.

Contrast that with 'Bill'. Bill was naturally gifted and he knew it. He could get by with his athleticism and he often goofed off during team meetings or film reviews. Bill frequently was given preferential treatment from teachers precisely because he was a star. He was mouthy on the football field, too. We were glad to have Bill on our team, but we knew you couldn't count on him to be there for the fund raisers or the fieldhouse cleanups. He was fun to be around with, but he wasn't SOLID like Joe.

In my opinion, you (figuratively) have to display the characteristics of a Joe to have the respect of everyone in your dojo. Rank doesn't automatically convey it, nor should it. Your skill, patience, and character all define the position you hold and the attention and respect you command.

 

[just2kicku]

I think every studio has had this happen. Like Mike said, it's best to nip it in the bud as soon as possible. I'm guessing these are adults.

Just like anything else, they're going to see how far they can push you and see how much you can get away with.

I know with me, the students know that they can't get away with much. If we're doing a technique, they don't need to know why, just do what I'm telling and showing you first, the why's and how comes will come later.

I have made them march in the parking lot bare footed, I have made them do wrist push ups and thank so and so everytime they come up. They have come to learn to do it they way I tell them to do it and if they have questions, I have always been more then happy to go over it at the end of class.

I can only use me as an example, but one of the things I would do is when they are in a horse stance I want their legs, butt and stomach muscles tightend up. At first they would just drop and do it kinda lazy. After a while of randomly going around and punching them in the stomach or kicking them in their legs, they've learned to stay tightened up all the time cause they don't know when they'll get hit.

Another instructor is a little more lenient with them and they know this. It's kinda funny to see them tighten up when I walk into the training area.

So I say, show them who's incharge right away. I tell the students that they will hate me in class, but outside we are all friends. They will even call me when they're practicing at home and ask questions about a next move in kata or the ending of a technique.

 

[Twin Fist]

Joe, you sound like me bro. Make them BELIEVE your technique in class, and fear your wrath....My students have all taken to covering thier solar plex during warm ups, cuz they know if it isnt covered, it is getting punched or kicked......heh heh

good times

 

[jks9199]

Some blunt questions follow.

Are you supposed to be teaching or instructing? If not -- then stop, and let the person teaching do the instruction.

Why don't they listen? How are you telling them what to do? As someone has said before me -- respect is earned, it's not the product of your belt. If your conduct and behavior isn't selling them that you respect them -- they won't respect you.

Are you teaching kids or adults? You can't teach them both the same way; each has different learning needs, and require appropriate approaches.

 

[Sukerkin]

Good first point there, JKS; I'd not considered that at all :tup:.

It is also true that the age of the people being taught has a large effect on the approach to take. Because off the art I study, I am unlikely to have to learn how to pass knowledge on to youngsters but it is a highly undervalued and very important skill to have.

 

[KELLYG]

I think that maybe the op just received his black belt and has not "grown" into it yet. Especially if he is a younger student that was friends with the under belts before he earned his black belt. A good instructor knows his students and what motivates them to preform. Some have to be told how to behave and that's it. Some have to be shown and that's it. Some have to be forced by what ever means necessary to preform and some just don't care. I am a higher ranking student haven't had a lot of difficulty in this area. Personally my respect has to be earned and it is not based on the color of the belt but what is in the head. I am willing to learn from anyone what ever there rank if they have a better handle on things that I do.

 

[pete]

its really quite simple: teach the those that want to be taught, and tell the rest to get outta the way. same for adults or kids, only difference is if its kids, you also gotta tell the parents too.

the ones that are acting up will straighten out and start learning, or leave the school... which they will anyway, you'll just be holding the door open for them.

pete

 

[Stac3y]

I haven't had a problem with this.

 

[shesulsa]

i am a first degree and latley i am finding that alot of newer students or lower raked students just dont want to follow instructions... and mind you talking back, thinking that they can do it better.

anyone that i teach that listens and gets the points really go far and progress rather quickley.

also when there are lower ranks that dont listen but do a diffrent style but are all under the same corpration.

in these times i am not sure on how to uphold the dojo law and still follow the sempai oath and the bushido code.
i feel like i have to be gentle with this situation and let it come with time but some time i also feel like the only way to get respect is to get into them and show them that what i do works and that i have the time and knowledge to deal with it

basiclly i want to know how to conduct myself with these people and what i should do about them.

sempai marco...

The first thing you need to do is get some confidence about yourself.

The second thing you need to do is make sure your ego over your accomplishment is not getting in your own way.

The third thing you need to do is talk to your instructor and see if he has some specific tips for you as s/he knows you and your teaching/training style better than anyone else here and can advise you best.

Finally, you need to know you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. Show them, offer them correction. If they are mouthy, then you can simply walk away and work with someone else or practice your own material. Or you can remain calm and say something like, "I'm trying to help you, but you seem to know it better than I." Or offer them your rank, put theirs on and let THEM teach YOU. Then ask questions, ask for new material.

You could always make an example out of them and show them how the technique really works ... or dismiss them ... or punish them with invisible chairs or prison pushups or a smack in the right spot.

I'm not sure if you are part of a larger group where a master instructor is on hand all the time or if this is your class in particular - you don't really get specific. But before you do anything I most definitely would get advice from your instructor as learning how to teach should be part of your instruction.

Teaching is about much, much more than giving someone a laundry list of things to accomplish and directions to follow.

Keep us posted.

 

[Andrew Green]

in these times i am not sure on how to uphold the dojo law and still follow the sempai oath and the bushido code.

Keep in mind for most people this is a hobby, not signing up for the military. "Sempai oath" and "Bushido code" are not universal concepts, these are things you particular branch has implemented and given "authentic" names.

sempai marco...

That for example, makes absolutely no sense given the Japanese meaning of the word.

Personally I am against having a very clear and defined chain of command, I think the more it is emphasized the more problems it will cause.

If you want to help people then help them because you want too, not because of some code or duty you feel. Do it as their friend and training partner, not as their drill sergeant.

Also keep in mind that just because people have been shown how to do something, doesn't mean their bodies will "just do it", learning skills can take time and you are fighting against what are (right now at least) their natural tendencies. You have 15 arts listed in your profile, I assume at least some of those didn't "click" right away and someone had to tell you the same things over and over again as well.

 

[Tez3]

sempai marco...his name is Marco and he's a senior student perhaps?

 

[rocksham]

i am a first degree and latley i am finding that alot of newer students or lower raked students just dont want to follow instructions... and mind you talking back, thinking that they can do it better.

anyone that i teach that listens and gets the points really go far and progress rather quickley.

also when there are lower ranks that dont listen but do a diffrent style but are all under the same corpration.

in these times i am not sure on how to uphold the dojo law and still follow the sempai oath and the bushido code.
i feel like i have to be gentle with this situation and let it come with time but some time i also feel like the only way to get respect is to get into them and show them that what i do works and that i have the time and knowledge to deal with it

basiclly i want to know how to conduct myself with these people and what i should do about them.

sempai marco...

If possible,. show them the door. If not, educate them in sparring

 

[rocksham]

sempai marco...his name is Marco and he's a senior student perhaps?

bingo, sempai = senior student

 

[Andrew Green]

sempai marco...his name is Marco and he's a senior student perhaps?

More about implying a relationship between two people. Outside that context, like for example signing letters or printing on business cards it is out of place, and would be considered very inappropriate in my understanding. Sort of like me signing off as "Big Brother Andrew" because I have younger siblings. Or a married person signing "Husband / Wife ____".

 

[Tez3]

More about implying a relationship between two people. Outside that context, like for example signing letters or printing on business cards it is out of place, and would be considered very inappropriate in my understanding. Sort of like me signing off as "Big Brother Andrew" because I have younger siblings. Or a married person signing "Husband / Wife ____".

I'm wondering if this is part of the original problem? A martial arts school/organisation that has adopted a lot of Japanese words and customs without knowing the way they are actually used so when someone is promoted to 1st Dan they expect an almost mystical transformation? Much is made of Japanese customs of loyalty, respect etc in martial arts without taking into account we don't live there or share a common background.
With the 'sempai' and 'bushido' code and dojo 'law' I'm thinking the OP expects everyone to follow as if it were feudal Japan almost. His black belt 'should' command immediate respect and it's doesn't of course. It may be not even his place to teach as such.