How do your higher ranks treat lower ones in your club?

[Blade96]

Just wondering because my BB's have a clique.

When they go out socializing after class even if they arent having a meeting, but just having a good time, Kyus arent even allowed to sit at their table. well they do, but the BB's show by behavior that we arent welcome there. As a result most Kyus do not even go most of the time. I had no idea why that was and only figured it out about a month ago. that the BB's dont like kyus with them (except for my Sandan friend, who got really annoyed when they attacked me for hanging out there, 'breaking tradition' because I am his friend and he doesnt agree with cliques) even though my senseis had said 'we're a family' so i started hanging out there but yet they didnt want me there either though they had said i am 'one of their faves' (Sandan even told me some stuff they had said about me where they had attacked me personally, for example treating me as 15 instead of 31, because I am different from most people. He was quite angry after I saw him later after a class.)

So how do BB's treat lower ranks in your art/club/dojo/dojang etc? Is it really tradition to be cliquish and exclusive?

Just would like to know am I right to be upset? I'd like to get some opinions.

Thanks,

~Blade ~

 

[jks9199]

There're times and places to give senior belts some space. But if it's feeling like a cliquish exclusion... something's skewed a bit out of line.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Never been an issue, we have non-kyu's through to Sensei (7th dan) all hanging out together after class. However I have more in common with the people I've been training with for 11 years rather then the guys who've been about 6 months. We've traveled together, helped each other move, and drank together.
If you show up and practice, if you help out at our seminars, if you socialize with us after practice, no problems. If you just practice and don't do anything else with us, thats not a problem either, but we really don't know who you are.
I hate ego's in MA...

 

[stone_dragone]

That's one of my favorite things about the IKCA (my association), there's no cliquing to speak of. At all association sponsored events that I've attended, you are only cliqued by the clothes you wear... if you are wearing clothes, you are one group; if you are naked, you are in another group!

I the aikido dojo I train at, teachers teach, everybody learns and EVERYBODY parties. Same with my karate school in NWPA.

The only time I've ever experienced clique-ing is when a school has a large teen population, and I attribute that to the nature of the beast (high schoolers).

I also never respected the bounds of any clique that I may have been part of, if I was in one...

Great question!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We treat coloured belts with much respect. In saying that, the black belts have generally known each other a lot longer and have forged good friendships over the years and may seem a bit more "clicky". Generally though, we treat everyone as equal , especially when 'belts are off'.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just wondering because my BB's have a clique.

When they go out socializing after class even if they arent having a meeting, but just having a good time, Kyus arent even allowed to sit at their table. well they do, but the BB's show by behavior that we arent welcome there. As a result most Kyus do not even go most of the time. I had no idea why that was and only figured it out about a month ago. that the BB's dont like kyus with them (except for my Sandan friend, who got really annoyed when they attacked me for hanging out there, 'breaking tradition' because I am his friend and he doesnt agree with cliques) even though my senseis had said 'we're a family' so i started hanging out there but yet they didnt want me there either though they had said i am 'one of their faves' (Sandan even told me some stuff they had said about me where they had attacked me personally, for example treating me as 15 instead of 31, because I am different from most people. He was quite angry after I saw him later after a class.)

So how do BB's treat lower ranks in your art/club/dojo/dojang etc? Is it really tradition to be cliquish and exclusive?

Just would like to know am I right to be upset? I'd like to get some opinions.

Thanks,

~Blade ~

In our club, I do not treat the lower belts like second class citizens. If I enjoy a person's company it has nothing to do with their belt rank.


Now, to look at your situation.

Have you considered the following?:

1) Is this the only time the Black Belts can get together and talk?
If so then they may not want to talk about color belts in front of color belts?

2) If it is about tradition then is it more about the Student Instructor tradition then it is about rank? i.e. it is more about the respect of the student to the isntructor and the instructor to the student.

3) Is it about talking about common things? i.e. Techniques they need to work and asking questions of each other? Some instructors prefer not to look like they might need some work or need to ask a question to lower ranks or color belts.

If it is number one, then there is not much you can do. They need some time to talk and or vent.

If it is number two then maybe you might need to understand the tradition and talk to the senior black belt in the club for guidance.

If it is number three then you need to understand that some people feel uncomfortable looking or being human.

 

[Blade96]

In our club, I do not treat the lower belts like second class citizens. If I enjoy a person's company it has nothing to do with their belt rank.


Now, to look at your situation.

Have you considered the following?:

1) Is this the only time the Black Belts can get together and talk?
If so then they may not want to talk about color belts in front of color belts?

I am not sure. But I dont think honestly that they can only get together just this one night a week.

but even talking about color belts - and i know they do, just as schoolteachers etc chat about their students....and I am ok with that. Its just the bad stuff they said about me. because I am different. My sandan told me what they said because it was downright rude and he was angry. and he felt it wasnt right.

2) If it is about tradition then is it more about the Student Instructor tradition then it is about rank? i.e. it is more about the respect of the student to the isntructor and the instructor to the student.

Not sure they said tradition means that kyus stay away and they dont come.

3) Is it about talking about common things? i.e. Techniques they need to work and asking questions of each other? Some instructors prefer not to look like they might need some work or need to ask a question to lower ranks or color belts.

Sometimes like things they've done or Tsuruoka sensei or Nishiyama sensei (who they knew) thats common to them because they trained longer and knew these men. Or stuff they did, yeah. But you dont need to totally exclude a Kyu in order to have a convo like that with someone, I dont think.

No one really answered my question though. Should I be upset? Do I have a right to be?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

In my school, I believe we treat lower belts the same. In fact, somebody's often going out of the way to invite them in and make them feel welcome.

On the other hand, there's something I've notice in my school, in myself, and in other schools I've spent time at. A lot of black belts will avoid getting attached to brand new students until it's clear those students are in it for the long haul. Too many people show up and stay for just a few weeks to make friends with every one: losing them would be emotionally exhausting.

One of my black belts once likened it to naming a goldfish. The goldfish may live a long time. It might die tomorrow. No sense getting attached if they're going to leave soon.

 

[Blade96]

On the other hand, there's something I've notice in my school, in myself, and in other schools I've spent time at. A lot of black belts will avoid getting attached to brand new students until it's clear those students are in it for the long haul. Too many people show up and stay for just a few weeks to make friends with every one: losing them would be emotionally exhausting.

One of my black belts once likened it to naming a goldfish. The goldfish may live a long time. It might die tomorrow. No sense getting attached if they're going to leave soon.

Aye! I've mentioned it when speaking to Carol on msn and such. They - including my Sandan friend, also ignored me when I was a white belt, for that very reason.

Was only after I got promoted to yellow that they became a little friendlier (but not a whole lot) as I have mentioned.

My sandan and I became friends when he realized I was there for the long haul. And that I really love our art! Seriously. Love shotokan! Just love it! And because he saw that I'm a good person and very intelligent (his words)

I mentioned to him that I didnt mind being ignored when I was a white belt - because I was a white belt.

Now it is my eighth month anniversary (May 10). 8 months I have been with them.

 

[Bruno@MT]

No there aren't, but in our dojo, me and the sempai are the highest students at 9th kyu . Our sensei is a 3d kyu; his sensei is a 5th Dan. From what I can tell, this sort of thing is actively discouraged in Genbukan. However, what does happen sometimes is that me and the sempai are asked to stay for a while after class to talk about things that not everybody needs to know.

Nothing really special, but sometimes he wants to know what we thought about the training session (if he tried something new) or the aptitude of a new member (will he be able to blend in easily in class, does he know how to fall, etc) since we are their training partner for the first 2 lessons, or how are the preparations for our demo going, etc...
For this we generally just stay until everyone has gone. The same happens between my sensei and his sensei and the sempai. I guess this is a normal thing. Of course, sometimes other members have something they want to discuss with the sensei in private and then the sempai and I wait outside.

Whenever we meet in a social setting, everyone is welcome, there are no cliques and we are all on a first name basis.

Since you mention tradition... I think it has less to do with belt color than with the fact that those people have been together for very long, and have not had people added to their group. And they may use their black belt as an ego thing.

 

[ATC]

In our Dojang adults pretty much all just mingle on the same level. Adults are adults.

However when looking at the students (kids) I can tell you that there is a rank to say the least. Our competition students are for most part the leaders of the school. That is to say they are the ones the other students look up to. They set the examples, so the other students really just watch and want to be like them. Because they are team members they do everything together, and bond. Because other students are not a part of the competition team they don't train with them so they don't bond on that level.

That is not to say that they don't speak or conversate with the other students, they do, but you can see that they tend to always be more with each other than the other students.

I really did not pay any attention to this until a couple of completion member that came along a bit later than the first few made a comment that went something like "We've made it into the group". I thought that was interesting.

I don't think it is anything cliquish or group-ish by design, it is just that there is not much time in the day and these kids are just always together by default so they have no choice but to bond a bit stronger with each other than with other students. As members come and go they assimilate into and out of the group pretty easily.

Also if you look at your school you will see that mostly same belt levels tend to hang around one another as well as same ages. There is just comfort in being around people that know what you know and can relate to the same things you can relate to. Age does that and so would rank in a MA school.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I really did not pay any attention to this until a couple of completion member that came along a bit later than the first few made a comment that went something like "We've made it into the group". I thought that was interesting.

I think this is different from what the original poster asked. What you describe is where the membership status to 'the group' can be earned through effort and hard work; not because of personality traits. Imo what you describe is a positive thing, and it is indeed normal to bond with people that you spend a lot of time with.

 

[Cirdan]

This thing seems kind of odd to me. Rank has never been an isue to us when we go get a pizza or have a beer together. Naturally instructors will sometimes need to talk about certain things without others present, but I can`t see why anyone would make an excluseve club out of it.

 

[Drac]

All are welcome at our table.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

All are welcome at our table.

Ditto on that Drac! In IRT everyone is welcome and we enjoy the company!

 

[repz]

I would be very turned off if black belts seperated themselves from lower ranks outside the dojo. Highest belt i have ever recieved is brown, and highest rank I recieved is kickboxing certification. I never see a black belt as someone different than me, just someone who knows the syllabus in the particular system more than i do, that is all.

We all go out as one unit, one family (I used to joke that they are so close is because they beat the heck out of each other and have some bond, or do that so no hard feelings are felt... gulp). And also, we are an independent group, not with the kyokushin or world oyama org, so maybe its different?

Do they seperate themselves because they are attempting to make the black belt an even more mythical rank that its some social status as well?

 

[theletch1]

At my school we tend to simpy not mingle outside of the dojo. We are a very varied group of people with very different interests outside of our aikido training. We offer training four out of seven days a week because so many of us have different work schedules so "hanging out" is incredibly difficult. Inside the dojo each BB has a little different attitude toward the kyu ranks. Me, I'm the all inclusive guy. I learned a long time ago that I still have a ton to learn and I see that as putting me a long way from the top of a pedestal so I treat the kyu ranks as younger family members. We DO have one BB who has never studied any other arts and feels that making BB in our style makes him a master of some sort. As a general rule attendence when he teaches is low. It's on an individual basis at our school. The BBs as a group don't have a clique.

 

[Blade96]

so should I be upset? Do I have a reason to be? Have I got a point?

 

[dancingalone]

so should I be upset? Do I have a reason to be? Have I got a point?

Don't take this personally, but you do come off as whining a bit, Blade.

There are valid reasons for certain gatherings to be "Black Belt Only". Sometimes it may be to discuss dojo business or it might be advanced training (not all training is physical).

Of course, general social occasions should be egalitarian and everyone should make an effort to be inclusive and welcoming. At the same time as someone has mentioned, the black belt members of any club are likely to know each other the best due to mat time over the years and it's natural that they might be more comfortable with each other than with relatively new members.

All good things grow with time. So too will your relationships with more senior members of your karate group if you stick around.

 

[girlbug2]

I don't think Blade is whining. He has a legitimate point about cliques and exclusive "clubs".

During my brief stint in management, I remember specifically being told not to show favoritism to any one employee because it's draining on morale for the whole office. When people start feeling excluded, their performance goes down along with their emotions. It's a natural human reaction. I believe you can apply the same principle to a classroom, a dojo or any other organization.

From what the OP described, the BBs are behaving very cliquishly, which is another way of saying there is group favoritism. At least one person, and possibly more, are being singled out for gossip of a negative nature. It's practiced methodically and regularly. Not good for dojo morale as a whole, not good for motivating the students to learn in general. At this point the sensei needs to be made aware of this--the sensei sets the tone, and it is his role to straighten out problems like this. He did say they're supposed to be one big family, no? This kind of thing should be of great concern to him, and dealt with ASAP.

Blade, if I were you I'd see if your one BB friend could bring this up with the sensei. You going to the sensei could be perceived as whining, but Sandan is in the proper "chain of command" to bring this to his attention.

Best wishes.