How do your higher ranks treat lower ones in your club?

[searcher]

My adult students treat everyone with the same level of respect no matter their rank. I hang out with my students and they all hang out with each other. I have made it very clear that they are to treat each other as they want to be treated and that they ARE family. We can rough each other up, but we are to watch each others backs. In or out of the dojo, doesn't matter.

If any clique develops, I will shut it down immediately.

 

[chaos1551]

There is no clique at my school and my instructor humbles everyone equally.

I have been at my school for over a year and I feel that my instructor is finally warming up to me as he realizes just how serious I might actually become.

Eight months, Blade, is not very long in the adult friendship world. On your word (not hearing the other side of the story) it does sound like they are being a bit rude. Seems like they could be a bit more gentle, if me giving them the benefit of the doubt is warranted. The best thing you can do is train. I would do everything I could to not be distracted by clique behavior. None of us here wants to see you upset over this!

 

[jks9199]

To expand a bit on my brief comment earlier...

There's a difference between hanging out with people whom you know and excluding new people. If newer people are unwelcome from the social gatherings, there's a problem. But if they're just kind of slow to open up to a new student until they've been around for awhile, that's a little more understandable. (I know some cops who just don't talk to rookies until they've been on a year or two... It's a combination of proving yourself, and why get to know someone who may not be around for long...)

There are also just times when people with history together just want to hang out with each other, and they may not feel free to relax with "outsiders" around. It's that lack of shared history, or that the outsider wasn't part of that shared history rather than a dislike or unwelcomeness of the newer person.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I don't have any tolerance for that type of behavior and it does not happen in the circles I travel in. If it ever happened in my dojo I would have a serious conversation with the black belts that were guilty of it.

 

[Stac3y]

We all hang out together, but we make the kids sit at a different table so we can tell dirty jokes. I don't have the easiest time making friends, generally, so I feel fortunate to have fallen in with such an inclusive group.

If upper belts are making you feel unwelcome at an informal gathering, that's pretty rude, IMO. On the other hand, if they told you that they were having a black belt only discussion/gathering, and you barged in anyway, you are the one being rude. A polite, but firm, "I'm sorry, but you aren't invited to this (particular) gathering," is appropriate in some circumstances. Backstabbing someone for hanging around when he hasn't been told he's not supposed to be there is not appropriate.

 

[Blade96]

If upper belts are making you feel unwelcome at an informal gathering, that's pretty rude, IMO. On the other hand, if they told you that they were having a black belt only discussion/gathering, and you barged in anyway, you are the one being rude. A polite, but firm, "I'm sorry, but you aren't invited to this (particular) gathering," is appropriate in some circumstances. Backstabbing someone for hanging around when he hasn't been told he's not supposed to be there is not appropriate.

Oh no. When the BB's said they were going to have a meeting, I get up and leave. Never hang around when BB's wanted to have a meeting, as you said, its rude. Not my business anyway when BB's wanted to have a meeting. I'm a kyu.

 

[ceaer]

so should I be upset? Do I have a reason to be? Have I got a point?

About the fact of the clique, I would say there's no point in being upset about it. If they don't want you there, why would you want to be there? Hang out with your sandan and other people who appreciate you.
However, I do think you have a right to be upset about the rude comments made about you behind your back. That's just inappropriate. Seeing as your sandan is already upset about it on your behalf, I think asking him to have a word with the commentators about that sort of behavior would be reasonable.

As to the original question, my school doesn't really do anything outside of the dojo. Some people who are friends outside of class, and were friends before starting MA, do things after class, but just those 2 or 3 people. There aren't any school-wide hang outs or things like that. So I haven't been in your exact situation, but inside my school there aren't any "exclusive" cliques or anything like that. When talking before or after class people do tend to split up into groups of 3-6 people, but anyone can join whatever group they want to based on what conversations are of interest to them. No one is flat-out rude to anyone, and at least half the class makes an effort to incorporate new people. Some people don't like each other, of course, as not everyone can get along with everyone at all times, but they just stay out of each other's way. The same holds true for the black belt classes; some of them are better friends than others but no one is rude to anyone else. And when there are combined adult and black belt classes, people don't split up by belt rank but by common interest. That can mean that some conversational groups have more black belts or more kyus but not by any deliberate effort on anyone's part.

 

[MBuzzy]

My opinion, you are right in how you feel and they are 100% in the wrong. In fact, there IS no excuse. Even if it is a meeting or discussing training, why would another belt - someone who is also interested in learning not be welcome?

This is my #1 complaint about martial arts. In fact, you run into this in any organization where you assign hierarchical ranks, associate authority to them, but do not provide people proper training in how to execute their rank. NO RANK exists without the rank under it and no rank exists without the ranks over it (if this require clarification, please let me know). People who abuse their own rank or mistreat those under them in my opinion, do not deserve their rank. I don't care if you are the greatest martial artist on the planet, if you can't show respect to someone who you outrank, as far as I'm concerned, you are no better than the white belts who are you abusing.

I seem to have a unique perspective on this being in the military. I know that several of you are also in the military, and I frequently wonder if it is just me, if it is an Air Force thing or if you guys are annoyed too. I've been to a lot of different dojos and have seen this in many places.

In the military, you live with your rank every day and the lives of people above and below you depend on your ability to use that rank and authority properly. The problem is, when you only get your rank for a limited time, there is far too much temptation to misuse it. People who aren't used to it sometimes like the power that it gives them and enjoy that separation. As far as I'm concerned, the relationship between a black belt and a kyu should be no different than that of an officer and enlisted. You are certainly allowed to be friendly, just not friends. There is nothing wrong with having a few beers with your officers, in fact, the good officers would welcome the chance to get the pulse of the troops.

Here's my story - there was a guy in my organization who I ran into who acted like this - refused to talk to anyone who wasn't another black belt, would stop people from half way across the room to make them bow, mistreated and talked down to lower belts. The guy was a live at home 24 year old kid, talking down to people twice his age and "forcing" them to respect him. Though he was a higher ranking belt, it got me to the point of breaking and I pulled him aside and in no respectful terms, counseled him about the use of his rank....luckily in this case, it caused a marked improvement. That may not happen with all, unfortunately....but it apparently works with some. I've also run into some VERY young (teenage) black belts in which the problem was VERY bad, the issue is that no one ever pulls them aside and tells them what a jerk they are being. The bottom line is that we are all people, your rank means nothing more than a time in service and ability designator, it does not give you free reign to mistreat anyone.

I'll be happy to go tell them that they are being jerks!

 

[pmosiun1]

Just wondering because my BB's have a clique.

When they go out socializing after class even if they arent having a meeting, but just having a good time, Kyus arent even allowed to sit at their table. well they do, but the BB's show by behavior that we arent welcome there. As a result most Kyus do not even go most of the time. I had no idea why that was and only figured it out about a month ago. that the BB's dont like kyus with them (except for my Sandan friend, who got really annoyed when they attacked me for hanging out there, 'breaking tradition' because I am his friend and he doesnt agree with cliques) even though my senseis had said 'we're a family' so i started hanging out there but yet they didnt want me there either though they had said i am 'one of their faves' (Sandan even told me some stuff they had said about me where they had attacked me personally, for example treating me as 15 instead of 31, because I am different from most people. He was quite angry after I saw him later after a class.)

So how do BB's treat lower ranks in your art/club/dojo/dojang etc? Is it really tradition to be cliquish and exclusive?

Just would like to know am I right to be upset? I'd like to get some opinions.

Thanks,

~Blade ~

You are right to be upset. I take it that you are doing some kind of TMA. I suggest you read the articles written by Matt Thornton. I also think you should leave your current martial art dojo and find yourself a boxing gym.

 

[Blade96]

seems most of you dont think its right either.

but

I think, because I love my art (shotokan) so much, i will just train and learn everything shotokan along the way, and earn belts and ignore snobby black belts.

Though i think i will approach my sandan about the nasty things that were said about me and see if he can go to someone about it.

and I hope to god that if i ever become a black belt I wont treat lower belts like that.

~ blade ~

 

[MBuzzy]

seems most of you dont think its right either.

but

I think, because I love my art (shotokan) so much, i will just train and learn everything shotokan along the way, and earn belts and ignore snobby black belts.

Though i think i will approach my sandan about the nasty things that were said about me and see if he can go to someone about it.

and I hope to god that if i ever become a black belt I wont treat lower belts like that.

~ blade ~

Great! If everyone had that attitude, there wouldn't be a problem - just always remember how you were treated.

 

[MJS]

Just wondering because my BB's have a clique.

When they go out socializing after class even if they arent having a meeting, but just having a good time, Kyus arent even allowed to sit at their table. well they do, but the BB's show by behavior that we arent welcome there. As a result most Kyus do not even go most of the time. I had no idea why that was and only figured it out about a month ago. that the BB's dont like kyus with them (except for my Sandan friend, who got really annoyed when they attacked me for hanging out there, 'breaking tradition' because I am his friend and he doesnt agree with cliques) even though my senseis had said 'we're a family' so i started hanging out there but yet they didnt want me there either though they had said i am 'one of their faves' (Sandan even told me some stuff they had said about me where they had attacked me personally, for example treating me as 15 instead of 31, because I am different from most people. He was quite angry after I saw him later after a class.)

So how do BB's treat lower ranks in your art/club/dojo/dojang etc? Is it really tradition to be cliquish and exclusive?

Just would like to know am I right to be upset? I'd like to get some opinions.

Thanks,

~Blade ~

Many times, after a rank test, a class or seminar, people of all ranks, will get together. IMO, the BBs should be setting the example for the lower ranks, keeping in mind that they too were once lower ranks, therefore, they should be treating everyone with respect.

As for your situation...dont know what to say. Some people will be more accepting of lower ranks than others. Of course, there are times when, as JKS said earlier, the senior belts should have their time.

 

[Blade96]

seems most of you dont think its right either.

but

I think, because I love my art (shotokan) so much, i will just train and learn everything shotokan along the way, and earn belts and ignore snobby black belts.

Though i think i will approach my sandan about the nasty things that were said about me and see if he can go to someone about it.

and I hope to god that if i ever become a black belt I wont treat lower belts like that.

~ blade ~

And, to prove my point,

I had a great class tonight.

Was even complimented by my senseis on my Mawashi Geri tonight. and on how fast we could do an uchi uke (that's inside/outside middle arm block for you non shotokankas) mine was pretty good lol

and kata as well.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

And, to prove my point,

I had a great class tonight.

Was even complimented by my senseis on my Mawashi Geri tonight. and on how fast we could do an uchi uke (that's inside/outside middle arm block for you non shotokankas) mine was pretty good lol

and kata as well.

Blade,
Good job from tonight and congrats on the compliments.

Ganbatte!!

 

[Balrog]

We're a family. When we do the occasional school get-together, there is no segregation by ranks. Granted, the instructors do NOT get buddy-buddy with the students, but we don't treat them like low rank scum, either.