Has Wing Chun "gone off course"?

Kung Fu Wang

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I invented the term drop down box. Before that it was called a hidden menu.
Xerox Star and Apply Lisa invented "pull down menu". Microsoft used "pull up menu". Even today, I still could not understand how could Microsoft get away from that patent law sue.
 
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Steve

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Xerox Star and Apply Lisa invented "pull down menu". Microsoft used "pull up menu". Even today, I still could not understand how could Microsoft get away from that patent law sue.
Lol. You called my bluff. :).

The amiga os was before apple lisa... wasnt it?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Lol. You called my bluff. :).

The amiga os was before apple lisa... wasnt it?
I didn't know where did the drop down box come from. Your invention will be remembered by the history for the next 10,000 years. Back then the GUI technology was new. I still remember there were 1 button mouse, 2 button mouse, 3 button mouse, even 4 button mouse.

One day when you and I will meet, we will need to talk about computer as well as CMA. ;)
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Talking about my "rhino guard" idea, It just fully utilizes the WC principle "protect center from inside out".

If you put one Tan Shou in your center path, your opponent's arm can still slide in along your Tan Shou. Of course you can move your body (or move your Tan Shou) to deflect it. But it will put you into defense mode. If you use double Tan Shou, it will be more difficult for your opponent's punch to slide in. If your opponent tries to slide in from the outside of your arms, you can change your Tan Shou into Bong Shou to deflect it. The only issue left is what if your opponent's punch come in between your double Tang Shou? My "rhino guard" just seals that hole, and make your double parallel Tan Shou into a single wedge with angles. The last issue is if you use double Tan Shou (or rhino guard), you don't have any arm left to punch back. The "big fist" can be your striking weapon.

It's a trade off. You have strong defense but weak offense. For those who only care about defense and try to protect your head from punching, the double Tan Shou (or rhino guard) can be a good choice.

In the following picture, he had his swords cross. If he lets both sword tips to touch instead, he will give himself the maximum amount of "safe zoom". Will you feel safe by holding 2 swords as a wedge and hide your body behind that "safe zoom"?

double_swords.jpg
 
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geezer

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I'd prefer two arming swords over the "Rhino guard". But who cares. Besides Matt Easton has funny ears! :p
 

geezer

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I gotta side with @ShortBridge and disagree with @geezer on this one. KFW comes across as if he is a WC practitioner of about 1 month experience ...
And, for the record, I like some of what he has posted over the years; but when he posts his usual MO stuff (i.e. rhino's and what-have-you...) it always has this messianic feel to it. Kind of like another cat who used to post here about so called "ancient" WC...

Gotta differ with you. I'm sure it was a long time ago, but John didn't learn Biu Tze with only a month in WC. And I don't get that egotistical, messianic vibe from him either. It's more like he came up with some things he really likes and is excited about them.

Now I don't like them so much, and I also think his recollection of WC is a bit fuzzy, but I really like people willing to debate and share ideas. So I I don't have a problem. But then I'm just like that. Living in my own little happy world....:angelic: ...until I go all psycho :rage:
 

Martial D

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I'd trade one Wang for any ten of you, with a couple of exceptions, in terms of being a gold mine of TMA knowledge.

People that think one style or other has all the answers are a roadblock to productive discussions.
 

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We all want Wing Chun to kick *** when used in open sparring matches, and that simply doesn't happen. Maybe we have the wrong expectations? Maybe Wing Chun was never intended for that kind of fighting? Then what was it intended for? When the answer to that question is somewhat unclear, then questions as to whether today's Wing Chun has "gone off course" are going to naturally appear.

-
I was criticized for asking these questions in another thread although I believe that person misread my question. Anyway being new to WC my opinion may not amount to much, and maybe Im putting the cart before the horse being I have only practiced WC for a little over two months. Coming from a boxing background and playing sports all my life, I felt WC was uniquely different than anything I have done before.

The questions KPM posted above are good questions. There are different ways to look at it. And lets be honest here, WC is a highly criticized art, for better or worse. BJJ/Muay Thai/wrestling all dont share this common theme of effectiveness.

It could very well be just an inferior art by design or it could be that its just not for combat sport. I personally think its more of an art for close combat efficiency.

Why do we see so many people modify it? I have to say I now believe that WC should remain strictly as WC. I am training WC bc I like certain aspects of it, but in all honesty if I were to get into a real fight my Kung Fu is boxing. In time if I become better at WC maybe that will be my Kung Fu.

I recently bought a Muay Thai heavy back to work with my kicks. I went to an MMA gym and took a few MT classes. I feel I can learn the basics of MT on my own. To me its a very simple but effective art, like boxing.

My issue will be whether I can learn WC and retain what I know in boxing as they are to me very different. I could potentially become a worse fighter learning WC for all I know.

Im studying WC as a hobby. All of this is a hobby to me. If I was really serious about fighting Id learn BJJ/wrestling and keep up with Muay Thai.

I enjoy the movements and forms of WC Kung Fu. Its fun. I do think it can be effective and I also think its a good art for older folks. Im 41 and think WC is a good art to learn as you age.

Here are some videos I thought were good representations of WC and fighting another style. I shared these before.

If you YouTube Wing Chun vs Karate youll find several of these videos.

 
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drop bear

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I still cringe every time somone tells me their art is not designed for sparring. But desighned for combat or whatever.

As if people are actually using them for combat. when plainly people are not.

That statement really means your system is not designed to be used at all. Which is why you struggle using the system.

And I mean there is not that big a surprise that there is a link there.

There are a whole bunch of things i would do if I wanted to put a person in to a ring fight of any sort. These things I feel are necessary because if you can't fight in the ring and you do you will get unnecessarily hurt. And that just seems a bit negligent.


Now in theory if I was to prepare somone for a street fight. I would prepare them better because nobody is there to save them and nobody will stop.

But because almost nobody actually has to use their system for combat. Nobody has to care what sort of martial artist you produce.

Designed for combat, for me anyway, is just an excuse for negligent training that is a system based on hope.
 

JowGaWolf

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We all want Wing Chun to kick *** when used in open sparring matches, and that simply doesn't happen. Maybe we have the wrong expectations? Maybe Wing Chun was never intended for that kind of fighting? Then what was it intended for? When the answer to that question is somewhat unclear, then questions as to whether today's Wing Chun has "gone off course" are going to naturally appear.

-
I was criticized for asking these questions in another thread although I believe that person misread my question. Anyway being new to WC my opinion may not amount to much, and maybe Im putting the cart before the horse being I have only practiced WC for a little over two months. Coming from a boxing background and playing sports all my life, I felt WC was uniquely different than anything I have done before.

The questions KPM posted above are good questions. There are different ways to look at it. And lets be honest here, WC is a highly criticized art, for better or worse. BJJ/Muay Thai/wrestling all dont share this common theme of effectiveness.

It could very well be just an inferior art by design or it could be that its just not for combat sport. I personally think its more of an art for close combat efficiency.

Why do we see so many people modify it? I have to say I now believe that WC should remain strictly as WC. I am training WC bc I like certain aspects of it, but in all honesty if I were to get into a real fight my Kung Fu is boxing. In time if I become better at WC maybe that will be my Kung Fu.

I recently bought a Muay Thai heavy back to work with my kicks. I went to an MMA gym and took a few MT classes. I feel I can learn the basics of MT on my own. To me its a very simple but effective art, like boxing.

My issue will be whether I can learn WC and retain what I know in boxing as they are to me very different. I could potentially become a worse fighter learning WC for all I know.

Im studying WC as a hobby. All of this is a hobby to me. If I was really serious about fighting Id learn BJJ/wrestling and keep up with Muay Thai.

I enjoy the movements and forms of WC Kung Fu. Its fun. I do think it can be effective and I also think its a good art for older folks. Im 41 and think WC is a good art to learn as you age.

Here are some videos I thought were good representations of WC and fighting another style. I shared these before.

If you YouTube Wing Chun vs Karate youll find several of these videos.

My only response to that is: When is WC no longer WC?
 

JowGaWolf

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I still cringe every time somone tells me their art is not designed for sparring. But desighned for combat or whatever.

As if people are actually using them for combat. when plainly people are not.

That statement really means your system is not designed to be used at all. Which is why you struggle using the system.

And I mean there is not that big a surprise that there is a link there.

There are a whole bunch of things i would do if I wanted to put a person in to a ring fight of any sort. These things I feel are necessary because if you can't fight in the ring and you do you will get unnecessarily hurt. And that just seems a bit negligent.


Now in theory if I was to prepare somone for a street fight. I would prepare them better because nobody is there to save them and nobody will stop.

But because almost nobody actually has to use their system for combat. Nobody has to care what sort of martial artist you produce.

Designed for combat, for me anyway, is just an excuse for negligent training that is a system based on hope.
What's the story behind that video? How did she get in the ring?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Their art is not designed for sparring. But designed for combat or whatever.
If you

- have knocked/taken down 10 guys, the chance that you may knock/take down the 11th guy will be high.
- can prevent 10 guys from knocking/taking you down, the chance that you can prevent the 11th guy from knocking/taking you down will be high.

The question is where can you accumulate those 10 valuable experience if you don't use ring/mat environment?
 

Dirty Dog

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If you

- have knocked/taken down 10 guys, the chance that you may knock/take down the 11th guy will be high.
- can prevent 10 guys from knocking/taking you down, the chance that you can prevent the 11th guy from knocking/taking you down will be high.

The question is where can you accumulate those 10 valuable experience if you don't use ring/mat environment?

In the ER...
 

Dirty Dog

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You can't accumulate your fighting experience in street. You either

- get hurt,
- hurt someone, and go to jail or be sued.

That means you can only accumulate your fighting experience in the ring or on the mat.

The vast majority of my experience has been outside the ring or mat - I haven't done tournament stuff in years, but I did take down three different people this weekend.
Other non-competition sources of experience would be law enforcement, security, bouncer, gang banger, generally being douche nozzle, etc. I'm sure I could come up with more, with a little thought, but clearly your assertion is incorrect.

In any case, your list of outcomes is quite incomplete. You can also

- avoid the fight,
- subdue them without hurting them,
- hurt them and don't go to jail because it was self defense,
- hurt them and don't go to jail because it was mutual combat,
- hurt them and leave without giving them your phone number, so they can't sue you...
- etc etc etc.

I discount the "you get hurt" bit as spurious, since people get hurt in competition all the time.
 

Steve

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The vast majority of my experience has been outside the ring or mat - I haven't done tournament stuff in years, but I did take down three different people this weekend.
Other non-competition sources of experience would be law enforcement, security, bouncer, gang banger, generally being douche nozzle, etc. I'm sure I could come up with more, with a little thought, but clearly your assertion is incorrect.

In any case, your list of outcomes is quite incomplete. You can also

- avoid the fight,
- subdue them without hurting them,
- hurt them and don't go to jail because it was self defense,
- hurt them and don't go to jail because it was mutual combat,
- hurt them and leave without giving them your phone number, so they can't sue you...
- etc etc etc.

I discount the "you get hurt" bit as spurious, since people get hurt in competition all the time.
So, what about the students who arent cops, bouncers, gang bangers or douche nozzles? How does the kid youre training gain experience? The soccer mom? The dentist or the accountant?

Dont get me wrong. Its heartening to see you furthering this idea, but while I agree and support your change of heart, @Kung Fu Wang also makes a valid point which is that a lot of people train who arent professionally exposed to violence. They arent cops, bouncers, gang bangers or douche nozzles. The only exposure to violence they have is their training. These folks are being sold a bill of goods by instructors who tell them they dont need any experience to become an expert.
 

Dirty Dog

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So, what about the students who arent cops, bouncers, gang bangers or douche nozzles? How does the kid youre training gain experience? The soccer mom? The dentist or the accountant?

Steve, you like to try and twist what I say. Please stop it. All I said was that the statement 'you can't get experience except in competition' is incorrect. That's it. Nothing more.

Dont get me wrong. Its heartening to see you furthering this idea, but while I agree and support your change of heart,

What change of heart? When have I ever, in any context, said or even implied that experience (from any of the various sources) was a bad idea?

@Kung Fu Wang also makes a valid point which is that a lot of people train who arent professionally exposed to violence.

That isn't what he said, either. Did you actually read either of the posts, or are you just replying based on what you think we would have said?

What he said (and I quoted it earlier...) was
You can't accumulate your fighting experience in street. You either

- get hurt,
- hurt someone, and go to jail or be sued.

That means you can only accumulate your fighting experience in the ring or on the mat.

Which is just categorically wrong.

Please do me a favor. If you don't understand what I've written, ask and I'll do my best to clarify. If you do understand what I've written, please respond to THAT, rather than making up positions for me that I've never supported. Please?
 

drop bear

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The vast majority of my experience has been outside the ring or mat - I haven't done tournament stuff in years, but I did take down three different people this weekend

Not terribly good volume from a training perspective.

I mean let's go back to this context of training for the street. I you did want to reliably take down three guys in the ER. you would want to have taken down 20 guys in the gym.

Not be unable to take anyone down and then suggest that you don't train sport. So therefore it is OK.
 

DaveB

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Not terribly good volume from a training perspective.

I mean let's go back to this context of training for the street. I you did want to reliably take down three guys in the ER. you would want to have taken down 20 guys in the gym.

Not be unable to take anyone down and then suggest that you don't train sport. So therefore it is OK.

But his statement was that he DID take down 3 people irl, not that he was unable to. And presumably without the 20 man royal rumble you suggest is needed.
 

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