Pin Sun Wing Chun Level 1

KPM

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Hi Guys!

This is REALLY going to tick off Jim Roselando! :D

When someone tells me I can't do something, I usually take that as a challenge. I'm stubborn like that! So I have decided that Pin Sun Wing Chun is indeed unique and special and I am going to teach it to my small group in parallel to our Wing Chun Boxing. This way they will have a relatively rare "traditional" system, will have a better idea of where I am drawing inspiration from, and will have a source for their own inspiration. So I put up a series of lessons for them to follow and decided to make them "public" rather than "private" like my long pole lessons

If any of you believe that my Pin Sun was "quickly learned" and therefore I don't know what I am talking about, then you are free to ignore what I have to say and show. However, if you are interested in seeing what a different version of Wing Chun looks like, I welcome your feedback and questions.

I wasn't originally going to post any of this, until Jim chose to make a big deal out of it and attack my credibility. Most of this footage was shot over 3 years ago. I was sharing my Pin Sun with 2 friends at the time and had come up on deployment orders to Egypt courtesy of Uncle Sam. When we were discussing how they would be able to continue without me one of my friends asked if I would be willing to let his brother film me. His brother had worked as a videographer and had all the equipment. So I said "why not?!" Originally this footage was only shared with the two of them, and a copy sent to Marc Kenney in Boston for his approval. He was impressed with what I did. Now I have gone back and re-edited the footage and added a bit to it to create video lessons on youtube. I hope you all realize how rare a thing this is for Pin Sun Wing Chun! But its time to come out of the secretive dark ages and share information with our Wing Chun brothers.

So there it is!






PSWC Lesson 4: Dai Lim Tao Progression

PSWC Lesson 4 - b: Dai Lim Tao 2nd Order

PSWC Lesson 5: Cup Da Sau Progression

PSWC Lesson 6: Level 1 Associated Training

PSWC Lesson 7: Level 1 Chi Sau
 

DanT

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Keith,

Are there Butterfly swords or long pole in Gulo Wing Chun? If yes were they there originally or added later?
 
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KPM

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Keith,

Are there Butterfly swords or long pole in Gulo Wing Chun? If yes were they there originally or added later?

Leung Jan did not teach Butterfly knives when he retired to Ku Lo Village. But it didn't take long for the Ku Lo guys to realize that their San Sik could easily be adapted to the knives. Leung Jan did teach a shortened version of the pole in Ku Lo. This was the "Saam Dim Boon Kwan" or "3 1/2 point pole" instead of the 6 1/2 point pole. And it uses a shorter pole with stances closer to the empty hand method rather than the deep stances one usually associates with the pole. I have not learned the Pin Sun pole method. Instead I do the Tang Yik pole method, but have organized what I know of it into shorter San Sik rather than trying to remember and practice the long form.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Keith, you're evil. Post content like that, and I'll have to watch it, then I'll pick parts and try to find some principles to work with. Then I'll find something to incorporate, but it'll take lots of practice, which I will put in when I should be doing something else. Pure evil, man.
 

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In my experience, if you want to learn about another branch or style, you usually can get a better general picture from an intelligent "rebel" than from a from a "true believer" ...even if the "rebel" hasn't had the depth of training as the "believer".

It has more to do with the "rebel's" questioning mindset, willing to make honest comparisons between styles and branches. True believers see everything through blinders ....a right or wrong , or "Sifu said" perspective. Hard to have a two-way discussion with those guys...
 
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geezer

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One comment on the general comparison between Yip Man WC and Pin Sun in the first clip. The Yip man WC I have studied does fight with the shoulders square to the opponent's center, and does emphasize extending energy, not withdrawing or "swallowing" just as Keith stated ....yet we also emphasize compressing and turning to absorb oncoming force, so without withdrawing our energy, we are soft and yielding, and slip aside, moving offline. We just use our opponent's energy to get there.

In short, we do not stand toe-to toe in front of an opponent! That's a bad place to be, especially for a little guy!
 

geezer

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A comment on "quick learning". Generally a bad idea. But if your time is short, you have to teach and learn quickly. It sounds like this was exactly Dr. Leung Jan's situation when he retired to Kulo village.

...So maybe his students never got everything that Leung Jan's Fo'shan students learned. But maybe they got enough to combine with their own martial experience to build and develop an origianal equally complete WC system over generations.

Hey, anyone who says that people can't develop a very high level of skill being largely self-taught doesn't know history or understand human potential. It just more difficult and takes longer. Perhaps generations. For example, the Plains Indians in the United States became superb horsemen, but were originally self-taught after capturing mustangs ...escaped horses brought to the American continent by the Spanish conquistadors.
 

wckf92

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Interesting video clips KPM. I now have a much better grasp of PSWC. Hope you post more of them.
 

Marnetmar

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...So maybe his students never got everything that Leung Jan's Fo'shan students learned. But maybe they got enough to combine with their own martial experience to build and develop an origianal equally complete WC system over generations..

Speaking of which, do any videos of the Lo Kwai branch exist? Supposedly they preserve LJ's actual Foshan teachings, including Siu Lien Tao as one long set similar to the Cho family version. Allegedly Leung Jan and Wong Wah Bo were the ones that later broke it down into the three hand forms we know today:

WingChunPedia | WCP / LoKwaiChaoFamilySystem browse

Cho family form:


Cho family san sik (some of this should look familiar to you, KPM):

 
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Juany118

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Leung Jan did not teach Butterfly knives when he retired to Ku Lo Village. But it didn't take long for the Ku Lo guys to realize that their San Sik could easily be adapted to the knives. Leung Jan did teach a shortened version of the pole in Ku Lo. This was the "Saam Dim Boon Kwan" or "3 1/2 point pole" instead of the 6 1/2 point pole. And it uses a shorter pole with stances closer to the empty hand method rather than the deep stances one usually associates with the pole. I have not learned the Pin Sun pole method. Instead I do the Tang Yik pole method, but have organized what I know of it into shorter San Sik rather than trying to remember and practice the long form.
I think elsehwere you posted a video of the knives with empty hand TWC forms. Maybe due to my Kali experience I have an innate understanding that "what you can do with the empty hand, you can also do with short blades" (roughly up to machete length) and vice versa. Once that clicked from my Kali training I was kinda surprised it isn't universal. Just put together biomechanics and weapon attributes in a logical format. If you understand how to move with empty hands it only takes considering the attributes of a weapon to figure out what weapon can use the same motions.
 

geezer

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Speaking of which, do any videos of the Lo Kwai branch exist? Supposedly they preserve LJ's actual Foshan teachings....

....so the other branches don't preserve Leung Jan's teachings? How the heck could anyone back that claim up? In my experience everyone has the only original and authentic teaching, unless they have the only superior and combat effective modernized version. :D
 

dudewingchun

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Speaking of which, do any videos of the Lo Kwai branch exist? Supposedly they preserve LJ's actual Foshan teachings, including Siu Lien Tao as one long set similar to the Cho family version. Allegedly Leung Jan and Wong Wah Bo were the ones that later broke it down into the three hand forms we know today:

WingChunPedia | WCP / LoKwaiChaoFamilySystem browse

Cho family form:


Cho family san sik (some of this should look familiar to you, KPM):


Super hard to find any info on that lineage.
 

Marnetmar

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....so the other branches don't preserve Leung Jan's teachings? How the heck could anyone back that claim up? In my experience everyone has the only original and authentic teaching, unless they have the only superior and combat effective modernized version. :D

I'll admit that post was poorly thought out. However, I do believe that by examining and cross-referencing material from various branches we can logically work our way back to what Leung Jan might have actually taught, and then check and see if the Lo Kwai branch matches what we suspect about Leung Jan's old teachings.

I believe that we can cross reference and (more importantly) eliminate material from:

-Kulo Wing Chun
-Cho Family Wing Chun
-Yiu Choi Wing Chun
-Modern Chan Family Wing Chun
-Yip Man's Foshan Wing Chun
-Possibly Weng Chun (being associated with Wong Wah Bo and all)

Until we've somewhat confidently arrived at a picture of how Leung Jan's Wing Chun actually looked. If the Lo Kwai system bears a strong resemblance to what we've deduced, then we can know that system is probably is, in fact, an older one. It would be time consuming (and probably a waste of time), but why wouldn't it work?

On a side note, Leung Jan is actually a pretty mysterious and elusive figure in Wing Chun history when you think about it.
 
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KPM

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A comment on "quick learning". Generally a bad idea. But if your time is short, you have to teach and learn quickly. It sounds like this was exactly Dr. Leung Jan's situation when he retired to Kulo village.

...So maybe his students never got everything that Leung Jan's Fo'shan students learned. But maybe they got enough to combine with their own martial experience to build and develop an origianal equally complete WC system over generations.

Hey, anyone who says that people can't develop a very high level of skill being largely self-taught doesn't know history or understand human potential. It just more difficult and takes longer. Perhaps generations. For example, the Plains Indians in the United States became superb horsemen, but were originally self-taught after capturing mustangs ...escaped horses brought to the American continent by the Spanish conquistadors.

Good points! But I will also point out that the Ku Lo guys say Leung Jan spent 3 years in their village before he died. Plenty of Ip Man students that use the title of "Grand Master" today didn't spend any more time with Ip Man than that! So I'm not so sure that Leung Jan taught this way because he was really shortening the curriculum, or if by this time in his life he realized he could eliminate a lot of superfluous stuff and just get right down to the good stuff! ;)

I've made this point before.....but how much do you guys think you could learn if you spent several hours on a near daily basis training with a Master teacher for 2 or more years straight?
 

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I've made this point before.....but how much do you guys think you could learn if you spent several hours on a near daily basis training with a Master teacher for 2 or more years straight?
Especially with an existing base. I remember meeting someone who'd only been studying his current art for 6 months, but those guys worked longer and more often than hobbyists, and he had some significant prior training. I'd have put his understanding of the style comparable to someone who'd been training at least 3 years as a serious hobbyist.
 
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geezer

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I've made this point before.....but how much do you guys think you could learn if you spent several hours on a near daily basis training with a Master teacher for 2 or more years straight?

That is an interesting question. I don't know the answer. With intense training and good coaching, some people (not me) pick things up very quickly. On the other hand, some things just take time to get right. But that doesn't mean spending your entire life following a sifu.

After a certain point, there are things you have to figure out on your own. Moreover, different people may discover different ways of doing things depending on what works best for them.

Some folks won't accept anything that doesn't come from their sifu. Personally, sometimes I like figuring things out on my own.
 
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^^^ No doubt putting in the "flight time" on your own is at least as valuable and necessary as the time spent directly with your teacher. Sometimes more valuable, depending upon the student...and the teacher. ;)
 

geezer

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^^^ No doubt putting in the "flight time" on your own is at least as valuable and necessary as the time spent directly with your teacher. Sometimes more valuable, depending upon the student...and the teacher. ;)


Not to mention that there is the financial incentive for keeping the to-dai forever in the student-mode and dependent upon the sifu for the advanced techniques.

Imagine if it were this way in other fields: First -- the assumption that all true knowledge was found in the past, and that instead of getting a PhD in a set period of time, you were expected to continue at the university as a "disciple" following your professors until they died.

Actually, that sounds a bit like thought in the middle ages when nobody was allowed to question official doctrine. Thank god for heretical thinkers!!!
 
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