Has MMA done harm to martial arts

[Tez3]

MMA is a sport, it's a competitive sport, a game, a hobby, a thing to test your courage, something to train for. It's made up of many martial arts, to disprespect MMA is actually disrespecting your own style as it's in there, trust me. I know fighters whose base styles come from all the major styles including CMA.
MMA fighters can defend themselves in the street if need be, they aren't so stupid they think they are in the ring/cage. This always comes up when people discuss MMA..."oh it can't be used for SD, it has rules" of course it does dear, it's a competitive sport.

UFC advertising probably says more about modern America than it does MMA. When you talk about the UFC as if it were MMA, you are wrong. The UFC is a company, the same as Ford, Hoover, Microsoft etc etc. It is not the syle of martial arts, please don't mistake the UFC for MMA. It's merely a promotion not a style.

Most karate styles have grappling in them, look in the katas for it. You can also get Iain Abernethy's books, dvds and go on his seminars if you can't find them.
TigerCraneGuy...great post!

Enough already, if your style has no bad apples, is perfect, doesn't throw chi balls, doesn't promote children to Dan grades, it's competitiors win every fight in comps, beats every bad guy in the street and all the instructors wear halos feel free to criticise MMA until then show us the courtesy on MT that we the MMAers show you. You won't have seen any fight talk from us on here, we try to explain our style/art and yet all we get back is 'I hate the UFC and the tattooed fighters, I hate MMA coz you can't do it on the street, I hate MMA because it's not my style'

Underground fights = :rofl: you don't really believe all that surely?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.

 

[Tez3]

I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.

quoted for truth!!

 

[kroh]

I really like what MMA has done for martial arts. It has brought MA into the spotlight again much like Ninjutsu did in the 80's and Martial Arts movies did in the 90's.

In the town where I live some one opened a gym that offers training in wrestling (folk/collegiate and freestyle) as well as MMA. I thought this was a fantastic sign of where martial arts is headed in the public perception. Having something like these sports side by side not only raises awareness of what we do (us being kung fooligans) but also introduces us into something we might not have tried (the wrestling).

As far as everything else... you will always have the loudmouths. If you are such a big bad mama jama MMA dude or worse, a kung fool thinking your stuff is unbeatable... go prove how tough you are and bring in Osama Bin Laden or use you incredible grappling skills to keep a neighborhood safe as a police officer. Everyone else just wants to train and could care less about the ranting.

Great discussions so far...
Regards,
Walt

 

[searcher]

Searcher,

. So, knowing some ground work to be able to move and to control enough to get up is good. But for self defense are you saying that you could submit people in a street fight?


I understand the Underground fights were always one on one, and if this is the case then ok, I was just looking for some more information.


Thanks

It never ended up with a submission. It always ended up with taking the submission technique to the next step, dislocation or bone break. I wish people in the pre-MMA days would have given up, but they did not. Which always forced it to that next step. Never fun, but a reality. And for it being one-on-one, it rarely happened. The possibility of having multiple people wanting to stomp you made the "next step" easier to take. I still have ribs that are broken off from being on the ground with a guy's buddy and I WAS getting the upper hand, which did not last long. Having those submission techniques gave some the upper hand if they were willing to go to exteme lengths when using them.

Rich-hope this answers your question.

 

[searcher]

I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.

:bow:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.

How very true.

What has happened is that MMA has been shown to be "Tougher than wrestling" because it isn't fake or prearanged. The promoters have gone to a lot of trouble to bring in viewers and have gone after the same crowd that WWE appeals to. So consequently, you have a large part of the fanbase that is comprised of ... well... fanboys.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

WWE is marketed here as a kids thing, there's toys, comics etc. I don't think there's nearly as many fans here as the States. It's not on mainstream television and doesn't make much of an impact really. Just a fun thing, I don't think the yob element goes for it here, we have football.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

WWE is marketed here as a kids thing, there's toys, comics etc. I don't think there's nearly as many fans here as the States. It's not on mainstream television and doesn't make much of an impact really. Just a fun thing, I don't think the yob element goes for it here, we have football.

How fortunate for you. The WWE is marketed to kids here to a lesser extent, but is mainly focuses on teens and young adults. Just my own observation, but I feel that the transition began when the WWF became the WWE, and around the same time kind of came clean about it being entertainment and not fighting.

At that time, WWF's hardcore fans, mainly male teens and young adults, began to take a greater interest in the UFC, which was also beginning to be marketed more aggresively at that time.

I haven't decided if picking up that particular fanbase is good for MMA as a whole or not. On the one hand, those folks are seeing a much better event than anything the WWE/F has even thought about doing for at least twenty to thirty years.

On the other hand, I'm a bit concerned that the UFC may start affecting some of the WWE's practices in order to retain and broaden that audience. In that case, MMA would, at least in the states, suffer a bit.

Only time will tell.

Daniel

 

[Hagakure]

WWE is marketed here as a kids thing, there's toys, comics etc. I don't think there's nearly as many fans here as the States. It's not on mainstream television and doesn't make much of an impact really. Just a fun thing, I don't think the yob element goes for it here, we have football.

Good God don't we just. I "HATE" football/soccer/Wendy-ball with a passion. I hate it, and its fans/thugs. Sorry, it's the one thing that gets my goat. Overrated, over paid, under mannered. I worked at Birmingham City FC doing a basic security role after I left the RN in 04, and met several footballers. Almost to a man they were arrogant and conceited. How true is it that too much money and not enough thought corrupts... Want a proper game? Play/watch rugby.

Moving back on track. What is it with yobs and sport? The idiots that I've wasted my own time with arguing with on other less distinguished sites, have been the fanboys. Not the "I train 10 hours a week, and that's before I step into the ring to put it into practice" lads. Them, I've the utmost respect for, that and I wouldn't wanna mess with them.

 

[Steve]

The WWE is like soap operas for dudes. No more, no less. I hate that the UFC/WEC market in that way. But they didn't start it. The Japanese are WAY more into the theatrics of professional wrestling than we are in the USA. Look at Pride. Josh Barnett routinely makes money taking pro wrestling gigs in Japan.

I'm having a problem, though, with the implied idea that the ills of MMA are America's fault. The picture Tez and others paint of the state of MMA in the UK just doesn't seem realistic to me. I agree with your descriptions of the people who train in MMA. I think that they are much the same here in the States. But when you talk about MMA as a sport in the UK, it just seems... like you're looking through rose colored glasses. I don't know a ton about the scene over there, but from what I've heard about the unsanctioned boxing events, and from the events I've seen on TV and the internet from over there, it looks... exactly the same as it does here (with all of the good and bad that this implies).

Maybe it's early and I need another cup of coffee, but the "That says more about modern America" line irritated me a little. The UK isn't all peaches and cream. Neither is Japan or any place else.

 

[Sandstorm]

Just a couple of things here.
The tattoos issue has been covered, so I'l skip that.
The 'Wing Chun' issue seems to be rattling some peoples chains. Ok, so the Wing Chun practitioners didn't do so well in the arena. Does that make WC less effective as a fighting style? No, not in my opinion, but not for the reasons stated so far either. Most fights are won due to the individual, not the style. Just look at how it's run now. MMA have Teams as opposed to 'Arts' that they represent. The basic skillset is a common standard now, because that skillset is what works in the arena. All it comes down to is how well the individual 'uses' that skillset against his/her opponant.

Arguing that 'Wing Chun' or any other art is not suitable for MMA because it uses techniques that aren't allowed in the arena is absolute tosh. Effectively, what your saying there is that if you took those rules away and fought an MMA fighter, you would win as a WC practitioner. This appears to me that there is an assumption that while those rules have been removed to allow such techniques, the MMA fighter will not also employ said techniques? So, you want to spear the eyes with Biu Jee, why can't the MMA fighter choose to do that also? Biting? Wrenching? Throat strikes? You name it, just because your art practices such things, does that mean the MMA fighter won't also use them? Let's face it, do you 'really' practice biting and eye gouging? I think not. You strike a towel or a sandbag etc to toughen the fingers, yes, so why would the MMA fighter not just extend his fingers and stab the eye instead of a standard punch? I'm not picking on Wing Chun here, I'm using it as reference due to it being mentioned. This applies to 'any' art. Dangerous techniques are removed because it's a sport. It's got to appeal to the audience and fighters alike.

Put an MMA fighter in the street and he will have, not only the tools of his trade in the arena, but all the other tools that streetfighters would use. Add to that the conditioning, and I think most people would really struggle to cause the MMA guy any trouble.

Now, in the early days of MMA/UFC, where rules were really limited, this is when we actually saw the Wing Chun practitioners fight. One guy outweighed Johnny Rhodes (a retired kickboxer) and ended up fighting most of the fight on the floor against him. Was that a display of Wing Chun? Why did Emin Boztepe constantly refuse to fight Royce Gracie?
Bottom line here is, yes, Wing Chun is a fantastic art for self defence. As are many others. They work in the street for sure, I can vouch for that from personal experience. What you have to remember is, these arts are designed for self defence. Not sport fighting. Above all, not for fighting against experienced fighters. Rhodes won because he had superior ring-craft. He understood the flooring he was on. he understood footwork. He could block and duck and weave away from strikes and use his pivots. The average guy on the street will not have these abilities. Big big difference.

As for the advertising the UFC does, well, glamourising violence and aggression is called 'marketing'. Violence, like sex, sells. And we humans, Buy

 

[Andrew Green]

That video was hilarious, I could watch the "crazy monkey in a cage" bit over and over again, that just screams "animated gif"

 

[Andrew Green]

Why does the kick have to be directed at the knee , a low heel kick can be very effective when directed to the shin.

The knee does not have to be broken to cause an effect , the pain from a low heel kick to the shin can be quite debilitating , like banging your shin into a coffee table.

Except that ring fighters are professional fighters, they kick with thier shin and check hundreds of kicks shin to shin every week.

On a untrained person, especially if you are wearing shoes, this might cause a reaction, but on a trained fighter it won't do a thing.

I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.

Yup, always.

MMA is eclectic by nature and when training it you are free to take things from anywhere and anyone, as long as they work. Lets you see the value in everything.

But before that it was people that didn't train claiming ninjitsu was the best, and before that kung fu and before that karate. Largely revolves around whatever is "new and exciting"

The loudest stuff always comes from tv watchers, people that believe every word of their marketing then the actual marketing.

 

[mook jong man]

Except that ring fighters are professional fighters, they kick with thier shin and check hundreds of kicks shin to shin every week.

On a untrained person, especially if you are wearing shoes, this might cause a reaction, but on a trained fighter it won't do a thing .


Obviously you have never been kicked by a well trained Wing Chun guy thats practiced low heel kicks .

As an experiment just rap the edge of your knuckles on your shin hard , right under the knee cap and to the inner side of the shin , feel the pain , now imagine that force driven into your shins with acceleration and bodyweight by somebody whos been practicing low heel kicks for 20 years .

Now I grant you the ring fighters may have conditioned shins , but I think they would tend to leg check mostly in the same area of the shin all the time.
I would doubt that the whole area of the shin is conditioned , so they maybe susceptible to a low heel directed at the very innermost side of the shin bone , just under the knee where there is a nerve cluster.

At the very least even if it didn't hurt them it would stop their advance because of the angle of the Wing Chun guys leg and his whole body weight acting on the opponents advancing leg .

 

[bowser666]

Well I have learned a lot from being a member on these forums and the whole MMA love/hate vs TMA relationship. Here is what I have learned. it is a good ol Chinese proverb actually. The bucket that is half full makes alot of noise, the full one is silent. If you are content with your training ( regardless of style, TMA , sport MMA, or whatever) and you are accomplishing the goals that you set for yourself then there is no need to broadcast which is better. Simply be content with yourself.

I started as the half full bucket , and bought into alot of stereotypes based on style prejudices , but then I realized that I was fulfilling the stereotype myself. Which is why I say, do what floats your boat. Just be humble about it and use it to benefit others.

 

[Tez3]

So I'm lying about British MMA then? thanks alot. No I didn't say everything was peaches and cream here but MMA is exactly as I have said, it's not a sport for wimps, it's not for your tippy tappy poncey points scorers, yes we have our share of thugs but very few in MMA, they are mostly in football. Unlicensed boxing, I know nothing about, boxing and MMA doesn't go well together in this country and have nothing to do with each other. Tell me which promotions and/or which fighters you've seen on U Tube and I will give the truth about the show.

I've been involved in MMA for eight years, we've run over 30 shows and we've been to every promotion's shows in the country. What you have to bear in mind, and I've said this before, is that MMA in the UK is a very small sport, with only a few fighters (only a couple of hundred if that in the whole country) compared to the States so of course it's different, it's like a village...we all know each other. No one said that the fighting in the ring/cage was different, just we have a different way of looking at MMA here, there's no money to be made fighting in this country so while fighters fight pro rules and receive a purse they are amateur fighters. The biggest purse will barely be a thousand pounds (only a couple of fighters ever get that) and that will have to be a big show like Cage Rage, most fighters will only get a couple of hundred pounds , semis and amateurs get expenses on our show but other shows they'll receive little or nothing. We have the British Fighting Championships coming up, the fighters purse will be five hundred pound, the biggest purse most will have ever seen.

There was no implication that everything wrong with MMA was Americans fault, thats misread. If things are wrong with MMA it's the UFCs fault and I take issue with everyone thinking that the UFC is the style of fighting.

There's nothing to say that MMA in the UK won't get huge but at the moment it's not, it's very much a minority sport, a good crowd for normal shows is a about five hundred people, Cage Rage managed more but was in London, it's also out of business. Ultimate Combat (remember that Sandstorm? lol) was quite big but also out of business.

It's not a case of wearing rose coloured glasses, after all you can't get closer to British MMA than I am, it's more a case of we are a very tiny sport here, there's far more interest in kick boxing, MT and TMAs here than MMA. MT have fight nights on the TV here.

professional fighters in the UK
We have 10 flyweights
12 bantamweights
19 featherweights
20 light weights
20 welterweights
18 middle weights
15 heavyweights - this includes Buzz Berry and Ian Freeman both retired
8 super heavyweight.

we have more people who fight semi and amateur but these aren't ranked. A fight night here will commonly have about 10-15 fights on the card, only the top two will be professional fights. There will be two to three shows a month in various parts of the country. In March theres 2 shows in Wales, one in the NE of England. The distance is too far for most other than locals to attend or fight. Some shows like ours will bring European fighters across, we have a contact in Italy who sends fighters as they have the same problem as us of having a small pool to chose from.

 

[Hagakure]

Well I have learned a lot from being a member on these forums and the whole MMA love/hate vs TMA relationship. Here is what I have learned. it is a good ol Chinese proverb actually. The bucket that is half full makes alot of noise, the full one is silent. If you are content with your training ( regardless of style, TMA , sport MMA, or whatever) and you are accomplishing the goals that you set for yourself then there is no need to broadcast which is better. Simply be content with yourself.

I started as the half full bucket , and bought into alot of stereotypes based on style prejudices , but then I realized that I was fulfilling the stereotype myself. Which is why I say, do what floats your boat. Just be humble about it and use it to benefit others.

Oh my word, how true mate. I have a confession to make. Tonight, I broke my own vow. I argued with a moron on a particular video broadcasting site. He was a MMA/UFC fanboy, I'd had a hard day, and well, he'd slagged chi sau off, which if you don't know is "just" a drill in WC to learn about flow of close in movement/sensitivity etc etc. This guy was berating it saying "that's not fighting, that sucks, it wouldn't work in the UFC nyeh nyeh nyeh", so I went for him. Of course I got the "your (sic) stupid nyeh nyeh" comment back so it was my own fault. The fighters who step up to the plate and put their health and pride on the line I have total admiration. Genuinely. I publicly admit it now, I very much doubt I have the moral courage to do what they do, to step into the ring/octagon and to fight. Many, althoughnot all of the fans are little more than poorly educated, ignorant thugs that I loathe and despise for their limited view on life. Is that wrong, yeah, yeah it is, but I simply don't care anymore. I just don't have time for ignorant NEDS as the Scots would call them.

Same goes for the snobby TMA guys who look down on anyone doing a mere sport, one that happens to require stones the size of houses to do in my book. Either way if you're an ignorant flid from a MMA background because you've watched a view UFC bouts you ought not be allowed access to a pc, same for TMA purists. It's like arguing who's made best the purchase for a car (Jeez, have I already posted this in one thread? Can't remember...) AHHHHH!!!! Now I'm mad at myself for arguing with someone who's IQ is likely lower than the welcome mat in my hallway. I blame you guys. Tut.

 

[mook jong man]

I argued with a moron on a particular video broadcasting site. He was a MMA/UFC fanboy, I'd had a hard day, and well, he'd slagged chi sau off, which if you don't know is "just" a drill in WC to learn about flow of close in movement/sensitivity etc etc.

Don't worry about it I get irritated with them too , they always seem to think that chi sau is the way we fight .

It is just a tool for developing sensitivity at close range , it is used in that nano second of a fight when somebodies arms are obstructing me from hitting them in the face .

If there is no obstruction then there is no need for me to use chi sau I just hit through , quite a useful skill to have really when you consider that nearly every fight will probably involve your arms making contact with the opponents arms at some point and maybe in low levels of light where your vision may not be the best .

Its no big deal anyway lots of different styles have their own type of sensitivity exercises Wing Chun is not unique in this regard .

 

[Tez3]

Oh my word, how true mate. I have a confession to make. Tonight, I broke my own vow. I argued with a moron on a particular video broadcasting site. He was a MMA/UFC fanboy, I'd had a hard day, and well, he'd slagged chi sau off, which if you don't know is "just" a drill in WC to learn about flow of close in movement/sensitivity etc etc. This guy was berating it saying "that's not fighting, that sucks, it wouldn't work in the UFC nyeh nyeh nyeh", so I went for him. Of course I got the "your (sic) stupid nyeh nyeh" comment back so it was my own fault. The fighters who step up to the plate and put their health and pride on the line I have total admiration. Genuinely. I publicly admit it now, I very much doubt I have the moral courage to do what they do, to step into the ring/octagon and to fight. Many, althoughnot all of the fans are little more than poorly educated, ignorant thugs that I loathe and despise for their limited view on life. Is that wrong, yeah, yeah it is, but I simply don't care anymore. I just don't have time for ignorant NEDS as the Scots would call them.

Same goes for the snobby TMA guys who look down on anyone doing a mere sport, one that happens to require stones the size of houses to do in my book. Either way if you're an ignorant flid from a MMA background because you've watched a view UFC bouts you ought not be allowed access to a pc, same for TMA purists. It's like arguing who's made best the purchase for a car (Jeez, have I already posted this in one thread? Can't remember...) AHHHHH!!!! Now I'm mad at myself for arguing with someone who's IQ is likely lower than the welcome mat in my hallway. I blame you guys. Tut.

I see I'm going to have to take you in hand and take you to a show lol! We have the British Fighting Championships coming up so as soon as I get a date I'll sort it with you and introduce you to the real fans of MMA not the wannabe fanboys of UFC who I doubt ever get out of their chairs, they probably are the ones who train their dogs to fetch their beer for them!
I'd look upon arguing with them on the internet as stress release lol! Like those squidgy things you squeeze in your hand!
Btw my instructor was showing me what chain punching was tonight, I keep reading about it here but didn't know what it was. My instructor loves MMA but also loves all martial arts and is very knowledgable about most of them.