Full Speed-Full Power

[MJS]

For those that take up the arts for self protection, a main goal should be to train in a realistic way. This should include, but not be limited to resistance, as well as contact. We are going to rely on the techniques we do, so it'd be a good idea to know what works and be able to make it work under stress.

Now of course, no matter how 'real' we want our training, there has to be some limits. We can gear up in a red man suit and allow our partner to elbow our head as hard as he could. On the flip side, the 'dummy' isn't really getting the full effect of that elbow due to the protection. Most likely it'd result in a KO or some serious injury. But if we were to train w/o gear, we'd soon run out of people to work with.

Then of course we have certain things that regardless of gear, we still can't train them to their full extent. A choke for example. While we could choke someone out so we can get the effects, I can't imagine that its good to repeatedly do that. An armbreak...well, we can take it to a certain point, but we either have to stop or again, risk losing a partner.

So, all that being said, I have to wonder why so many people make comments along the lines of, "But if you can't practice it realistically, then why even bother learning it in the first place?" Now, sure, some things may be more complicated than other techniques, but still, while they're making the comment, they seem to be forgetting what I mentioned above.

Your thoughts?

Mike

 

[Deaf Smith]

I find it works this way.

Kicking and punching in the air is a kind of shadow boxing. It helps in coordination and speed. Not enough by itself.

One-step sparring (or two step or three step) gives you a bit of timing to go with it. Again not enough by itself.

Bag work. This gives range, power, and getting used to impacting something. Helps, but again, not enough.

Sparring (non-contact) This helps in timing, 'seeing' openings, coordination, and reaction to moving targets that think. Still not enough but getting there.

Sparring (light to full contact) This helps even more as you get used to overcoming your fear of getting hit as well as hitting a moving thinking target. If done right with control it is a great help.

Scenario based. Here you have players who act out various scenarios. Skits that mimic real life (and have protective gear on.) Very informatiive and add much to that above.

Several good schools teach this like SouthNarc, RMCAT, and others.

I hold you need them all. They are all important and help.

Deaf

 

[TheOriginalName]

"But if you can't practice it realistically, then why even bother learning it in the first place?"

Are these people volunteering to be the attacker....who then gets choked out??

It comes down to the fact that whilst we want to protect ourselves we don't want to kill or seriously injure our parteners.

And i would assume that if you had to defend yourself in real life and you used a technique you had drilled previously that the addrellin would kick in and any "pulled" technique your drilled with would quickly become fully effective.......

just my 2 cents

 

[still learning]

Hello, If you ever been in a real fight? ....the amount of energy it takes to go full power and full speed...empties one cardio quickly...

Hitting someone real hard does not always create the effects you think it will have.."the adrenline dump"..numbs you too..

The impact of hitting a person at full power and fulll speed is very different from anykind of training you can do.

That is why? "professioals will tell you...nothing can beat the REAL
THING!

MMA knows this all too well....VS...training in any kind of martial art classes...two different kinds of training..real vs...?

Also timing...is different when fighting for real...fast, furious,anything goes, up or down...NO rules...

Today it is NOT wise to fight for real for training...next best thing is almost full contact fighing with very little rules

or today ways...hardly any contact....? The way you train is the way you will fight.....this is a FACT for sure...

Aloha,

 

[jks9199]

Hello, If you ever been in a real fight? ....the amount of energy it takes to go full power and full speed...empties one cardio quickly...

Hitting someone real hard does not always create the effects you think it will have.."the adrenline dump"..numbs you too..

The impact of hitting a person at full power and fulll speed is very different from anykind of training you can do.

That is why? "professioals will tell you...nothing can beat the REAL
THING!

MMA knows this all too well....VS...training in any kind of martial art classes...two different kinds of training..real vs...?

Also timing...is different when fighting for real...fast, furious,anything goes, up or down...NO rules...

Today it is NOT wise to fight for real for training...next best thing is almost full contact fighing with very little rules

or today ways...hardly any contact....? The way you train is the way you will fight.....this is a FACT for sure...

Aloha,

There's a lot more than just the effort of going full force that leads to the exhaustion following a real adrenaline crisis. Lots of people have covered the effects in great depth, so I'm not going to repeat it here. Check out www.killology.com, http://www.rmcat.com/page17.html, and plenty of others.

 

[samurai69]

i think its really about compliance when training

if you put a lock on a willing (compliant) person then its easy, the more non compliant they become, the tougher it becomes

obviously we cant take a lot of things to the extremes, but for example a bulletman is trained to react as close as to reality as a technique allows locks are taken to a point just before their final outcome (a break or disslocation)

thats how we train as much as is possible

you can apply full strikes and even chokes etc to a BOB, ok it wont collapse, but it feels like it should


.

 

[MJS]

Are these people volunteering to be the attacker....who then gets choked out??

Well, yes, I was talking about a training session. Maybe I'm not following what you're asking here. Just for clarification, the comment you quoted is the typical reply that you see from certain groups of people.

It comes down to the fact that whilst we want to protect ourselves we don't want to kill or seriously injure our parteners.

And i would assume that if you had to defend yourself in real life and you used a technique you had drilled previously that the addrellin would kick in and any "pulled" technique your drilled with would quickly become fully effective.......

just my 2 cents

Yes, and this is why there should be a balance of both in our training.

 

[MJS]

I find it works this way.

Kicking and punching in the air is a kind of shadow boxing. It helps in coordination and speed. Not enough by itself.

One-step sparring (or two step or three step) gives you a bit of timing to go with it. Again not enough by itself.

Bag work. This gives range, power, and getting used to impacting something. Helps, but again, not enough.

Sparring (non-contact) This helps in timing, 'seeing' openings, coordination, and reaction to moving targets that think. Still not enough but getting there.

Sparring (light to full contact) This helps even more as you get used to overcoming your fear of getting hit as well as hitting a moving thinking target. If done right with control it is a great help.

Scenario based. Here you have players who act out various scenarios. Skits that mimic real life (and have protective gear on.) Very informatiive and add much to that above.

Several good schools teach this like SouthNarc, RMCAT, and others.

I hold you need them all. They are all important and help.

Deaf

Good points. Usually the focus tends to be on certain things that are effective, yet need to be done in a controlled fashion due to the nature. An eye shot or kick to the groin...2 effective shots, yet we need to use caution, but on the other hand, someone will say those tools are not good because you can't train them, how will you know they will work if you can't train them alive? Well, how does someone know the armlock will result in a break? We don't, but the people who dismiss those moves will fall back on the claim that its been proven or its on tape, etc. Well, just because something works for person A doesnt mean person B is going to have the same results.

 

[Imminent]

Good points. Usually the focus tends to be on certain things that are effective, yet need to be done in a controlled fashion due to the nature. An eye shot or kick to the groin...2 effective shots, yet we need to use caution, but on the other hand, someone will say those tools are not good because you can't train them, how will you know they will work if you can't train them alive? Well, how does someone know the armlock will result in a break? We don't, but the people who dismiss those moves will fall back on the claim that its been proven or its on tape, etc. Well, just because something works for person A doesnt mean person B is going to have the same results.

I have to disagree with the conclusions here. First, why do we have to use caution? I would prefer to use discretion, picking exactly where I want to hit to cause his body to react to get the injury I wish to inflict. There are between 60 and 80 (depending on how you wish to divide or subdivide the neuromuscular/vascular/organ areas of the body that when struck will cause reproducible reactions to at least some specific minimal level each time they are struck, and the reactions are predictable because they are autonomically hardwired as spinal loops in the nervous system. These points are anatomical reality, studies on myofacil pain triggers, gate control and neurophysical autokinematic response are well documented. If you avulse the eye or rip the optic nerve or rupture the orbit, everyone will react initially in the same manner. how long they are reactive varies but the minimal intial reactions are always the same. You cannot train asocial violence full speed on another because that means taking body parts past pathological limitations which translates into Dr.'s appointments. You can practice the striking on inanimate objects so when you kick you do so in the only technique that matters in the street, AS HARD AS YOU CAN. Then practice the strikes with the specific attack vectors through the available body planes in slow deliberate sequencing, that makes it instictive to strike specific target vectors without hesistation and understand what the body will react like so you can know where the next opportunity will be available to you without surprise. This makes the process of breaking an assailant apart objective so the flailing mania most attribute to street fighting is less pronounced, becasue your mind is conditioned to expect things. No one can condition for an eye gouge or a collapsed trachea or broken collarbone. Likewise if I knee drop and shatter the pelvic girdle, we can't keep going. True self defense, as I see it, is something that renders the attacker unable to carry out on any intention they may have by striking/breaking/throwing them into a state that renders their bodies inoperable. Just grabbing shirts and hockey fighting or throwing combos and regrouping to see what counters or offense the assailant may have is to put the social sport into an asocial encounter and usually the first person to do that in criminal violence is easy to discern, he's the one being carried out.

 

[MJS]

I have to disagree with the conclusions here. First, why do we have to use caution?

Not sure if you read all of the posts here, or if you're just jumping in, but let me clarify. If you read back over the other posts, we need to use caution, because while we're training, there are certain things that, unless we go slow or cautiously, we will injure our training partner. Read back to my first post regarding the redman suit.

I would prefer to use discretion, picking exactly where I want to hit to cause his body to react to get the injury I wish to inflict.

Well, this is common sense. We can attempt to set up various targets, but of course, but environment and target availability dictate what we do. So, while we may have certain goals in mind, reaching them may not always be an option.

There are between 60 and 80 (depending on how you wish to divide or subdivide the neuromuscular/vascular/organ areas of the body that when struck will cause reproducible reactions to at least some specific minimal level each time they are struck, and the reactions are predictable because they are autonomically hardwired as spinal loops in the nervous system. These points are anatomical reality, studies on myofacil pain triggers, gate control and neurophysical autokinematic response are well documented. If you avulse the eye or rip the optic nerve or rupture the orbit, everyone will react initially in the same manner. how long they are reactive varies but the minimal intial reactions are always the same. You cannot train asocial violence full speed on another because that means taking body parts past pathological limitations which translates into Dr.'s appointments. You can practice the striking on inanimate objects so when you kick you do so in the only technique that matters in the street, AS HARD AS YOU CAN. Then practice the strikes with the specific attack vectors through the available body planes in slow deliberate sequencing, that makes it instictive to strike specific target vectors without hesistation and understand what the body will react like so you can know where the next opportunity will be available to you without surprise. This makes the process of breaking an assailant apart objective so the flailing mania most attribute to street fighting is less pronounced, becasue your mind is conditioned to expect things. No one can condition for an eye gouge or a collapsed trachea or broken collarbone. Likewise if I knee drop and shatter the pelvic girdle, we can't keep going. True self defense, as I see it, is something that renders the attacker unable to carry out on any intention they may have by striking/breaking/throwing them into a state that renders their bodies inoperable. Just grabbing shirts and hockey fighting or throwing combos and regrouping to see what counters or offense the assailant may have is to put the social sport into an asocial encounter and usually the first person to do that in criminal violence is easy to discern, he's the one being carried out.

Good points. This is all stuff that I've said in the past, has been said by others in the past, and has been touched upon here already.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If you guys want to practice eye jabs and flicks, do what I do. Wear safety gogles (plastic with head straps.) Allows the other guy to do flicks and jabs while your head moves. We use that now and then.

Another way is to get a Century 'Bob' bag and take it off the stand. Then while holding it let others practice flicks&jabs. Then mobiize Bob and have it bob and weave and attack and retreat. My training partner and I use this often just for this. Besides

If that is to expensive then one can practice on oneself while looking in the mirror. Better than nothing!

Deaf

 

[Imminent]

MJS, thanks for the point on caution, sorry for the misunderstanding for some reason when I read it I thought we were talking end result of dealing with attacker not training partner. As far as common sense in picking specifc target vectors, I have seen the VAST majority of people who train/spar for self defense flail on their Redman or Blauer suited partners with little or no regard for specifics, so I believe that sparring with 20 oz gloves on taking or giving and such just doesn't do it. I have not yet made it to the strings that talked about the autokinematic responses, as I am relatively new and relatively limited to the time I can spend online, this is a vacation week for me so I get here a bit more, will find them eventually. It just seems to me that all the SD talks I have read through go back to the sport mind set, and I guess I think that takes it out of SD and into sport, relying on some rationally discernable code of behavior or rules. Anyways, from a training viewpoint I think the only way to effectively practice with a partner is for one person to engage and the other provide appropriate reactions and then switch, pick five or six specific vectors of attack on each turn and then provide five or six specific reactions to allow the partner to learn. As soon as two people spar, the reality factor goes out the window for the reasons cited earlier, you will injure your partner immediately and that ends the training. Sparring becomes one of those things were it turns into "would have knocked you out" "no way, I got you first" kind of scenarios. The drills to perfect power in kicking, targeting or such there have been solid ideas from what I have read, using anatomical dummies, plyo drills for explosion in striking etc. Couple those with a good partner to simulate impact and trauma and you train effectively. Just my thoughts.

 

[MJS]

MJS, thanks for the point on caution, sorry for the misunderstanding for some reason when I read it I thought we were talking end result of dealing with attacker not training partner.

Sorry for the delayed reply. No worries. Misunderstandings happen all the time, especially online.

As far as common sense in picking specifc target vectors, I have seen the VAST majority of people who train/spar for self defense flail on their Redman or Blauer suited partners with little or no regard for specifics, so I believe that sparring with 20 oz gloves on taking or giving and such just doesn't do it.

This is an issue with the suit. A few things to consider. The defender should, IMHO, be striking with as much accuracy as possible, rather than swinging wildly. The other issue with the suit is that obviously the attacker isn't getting the full effect, so some 'acting' on their part is necessary. Of course, this may give a false sense of something actually working.

I have not yet made it to the strings that talked about the autokinematic responses, as I am relatively new and relatively limited to the time I can spend online, this is a vacation week for me so I get here a bit more, will find them eventually. It just seems to me that all the SD talks I have read through go back to the sport mind set, and I guess I think that takes it out of SD and into sport, relying on some rationally discernable code of behavior or rules. Anyways, from a training viewpoint I think the only way to effectively practice with a partner is for one person to engage and the other provide appropriate reactions and then switch, pick five or six specific vectors of attack on each turn and then provide five or six specific reactions to allow the partner to learn. As soon as two people spar, the reality factor goes out the window for the reasons cited earlier, you will injure your partner immediately and that ends the training. Sparring becomes one of those things were it turns into "would have knocked you out" "no way, I got you first" kind of scenarios. The drills to perfect power in kicking, targeting or such there have been solid ideas from what I have read, using anatomical dummies, plyo drills for explosion in striking etc. Couple those with a good partner to simulate impact and trauma and you train effectively. Just my thoughts.

Good points.

 

[kenpofighter]

First of all, the way I see it, is that the guy getting his head smashed by a elbow should be doing his best to react in a way that would be realistic. Self defense training should be learning both the attackers part and the defenders. Of course, you can only act out the attackers part so far. But our U.S. military does not (always) train to fight by killing off each other. We don't test our missiles on our own guys! If you really want to know how this stuff works, maybe you should try walking down a few more dark alleys at night in New York City.