Seeing If Your Material Works, Testing It, and Percentages.

[MJS]

I was reading through some posts recently, and came across a post by someone. The post was talking about things that are untestable and just theory. Now, there are ways to gear our training, such as using padded suits, eye protection, etc., to try out certain things. We can train an eye jab with eye protection. We can target the eyes, with the other person moving, grabbing us, etc., while we attempt these hits. Is it the same as really doing it? Well, no, but we're getting closer than we normally would. This applies, as I said, to many strikes and kicks.

We move on to locks and chokes. Many of us train these things, going just to the breaking point (pun intended ) but we stop just short. I mean, I train arm bars, wrist locks, and chokes, but I don't snap my partners arm or choke them out. If that was the case, we'd all be short of training partners. Additionally, how good can it be to choke someone out, multiple times? I'm no doctor, but I can't imagine it being too good.

And now we have video and records. People say that unless its documented we don't know if its going to work. I'm not a profighter, so no, I don't have a 'record' and I don't walk around with a camcorder tied to my belt, so if I get into a fight, I can have a bystander film it for a keepsake. I find it hard to imagine, with all of the average people, Correction Officers and LEOs, many of which use their skills to defend themselves, that people would actually say that things are not proven to work unless they're filmed. Even if a LEO has a camera in his patrol car, which many do today, those films are a) not for public view and b) not designed to say what worked and what didn't. They're designed to protect the officer, as well as capture the incident in the event he is accused of excessive force, the suspect assaults the officer, etc.

So, what are your thoughts?

How do you test your material?

How do you know if your material is going to work?

What are your thoughts about film and records?

Is it necessary for everyone to film and have a record?

The above questions are just a starting point. They are not intended to be the sole focus of the discussion. If it branches to more questions, thats fine.

Mike

 

[10,000 Hit Combo]

If it works for me and I've proven it to myself, that's good enough for me. Seeing is believing. Other people might not give it credit unless they can see 'documented' evidence. Depending on what you're trying to accomplish as a martial artist, you have to give more or less creedance to public opinion. Some want to be teachers, some want to be competitors. I myself have become a "Kung Fu Man". I have no plans on teaching but will be learning kung fu for the rest of my life. It's not too important to me what people think about my kung fu techniques, ideas and whatnot. I need to apply something though. I need proof. I don't need to prove anything to others.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You train.

There is a world of difference between what goes on in a school, dojo, training hall, ring, etc with a teacher, Sensei, Sifu or Ref right there as apposed to what can happen in a real life confrontation.

There are simply too many variables to train for to be 100% certain it will all work so all you can do is train. Work on technique until it becomes natural and hope for the best and I honestly hope no one ever has to find out, it is not fun.

 

[Andrew Green]

Techniques can almost always be tested in some way. Effectiveness sometimes can't, but that is a different manner. Does a knee to the groin stop a person? Can I get 15 volunteers to run a test?

Same for breaks instead of submissions. My guess is that if you where to apply locks explosively rather then slowely you'd need less control and isolation of the limb to snap it.

But techniques are still testable, with proper gear and precaussions you can test just about everything to a reasonable extent.

Where things become untestable is when it is situational, not technical. What does your body and brain do when it is a suprise, outside of a training environment and you are not expecting someone to hit you? How is a person that has no training and is not aware of what you are doing and willing to submit rather then be injured react to your techniques? If you do end up with a knife in your shoulder will you be able to keep a clear enough head to act intellegently?

Those questions can't be answered in training IMO.

 

[10,000 Hit Combo]

No pavement for me please.

 

[jdinca]

I think you can get a very idea of whether or not it works by doing it on somebody. If you're taught that this move will put the attacker in this position and you do that move on a dummy, who doesn't go along with it, and they end up in that position, I would say that it works.

 

[jdinca]

I think it's possible to get a very good idea of whether or not it works by doing it on somebody. If your taught that move "A" will put the attacker in such and such position and doing it on somebody who's resisting does just that, I would say that it works.

If your taught that SD technique "B" will put take away the attackers ability to respond and will open up THIS target, and it does, then I would say it works.

The need to have something on tape, or it's BS is a modern day thing that reeks of skepticism and ego. It's a nice to have, not a have to have.

 

[still learning]

Hello, NO two fights will be the same. We all train in a safe enviroment.

On the streets, alone, adrenline kicking in, the fear factors, Unknown attacker/aggressor....you don't want to get into a fight? They do! Are you prepare for this part of the fight?

As far as for techniques goes? Who attacks first will get the advantage on there side...(remember you are in the fear mode)....

On the streets? It is anything goes, chaos, very fast actions,non-stop, biting and anything can be use for weapons against you or them...

They maybe better train in street fighting than you...more prepare because they are the ones starting the aggression....

Will your techniques work? ....maybe...maybe not?

THE WAY YOU TRAIN IS THE WAY YOU WILL FIGHT!!! Do you train for this chaos way of non-stop fighting? In the FEAR sense of being?

Have you been hit really hard and know they you can continune the fight?

Actully the only way to really know? Is being there? The way you train is the way you will fight!

Train wisely! .............Aloha

 

[MBuzzy]

I think that most important part of training is muscle memory. No technique applied in the real world will ever function exactly as it is does in a controlled setting. But if you have practiced enough in that controlled setting, then muscle memory will kick in and hopefully get close to being right when the adrenaline is going. Most of the techniques we learn will work just fine if they're not done perfectly.

 

[MJS]

If it works for me and I've proven it to myself, that's good enough for me. Seeing is believing. Other people might not give it credit unless they can see 'documented' evidence. Depending on what you're trying to accomplish as a martial artist, you have to give more or less creedance to public opinion. Some want to be teachers, some want to be competitors. I myself have become a "Kung Fu Man". I have no plans on teaching but will be learning kung fu for the rest of my life. It's not too important to me what people think about my kung fu techniques, ideas and whatnot. I need to apply something though. I need proof. I don't need to prove anything to others.

This sounds like something I've said before!:ultracool Great post!! I've said many times that just because something may not work for one person, doesn't mean its going to be the same with me or someone else. I think alot of times people watch a video and use that as the deciding factor. Kinda like, "Well, look at that technique! Rickson did it, so I can do it too and now I know its going to work!!" Umm..no, thats not how it works. I'm not Rickson.

Like you said, if it works for me, thats what matters.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Techniques can almost always be tested in some way. Effectiveness sometimes can't, but that is a different manner. Does a knee to the groin stop a person? Can I get 15 volunteers to run a test?

Well, I'm sure every one of us here has taken a hit to the groin at some point during our training. I know I have, and I've hit some people there during sparring. In both cases, the other guy as well as myself when I got hit, stopped. I've seen this happen in MMA as well.

But techniques are still testable, with proper gear and precaussions you can test just about everything to a reasonable extent.

Agreed.

Where things become untestable is when it is situational, not technical. What does your body and brain do when it is a suprise, outside of a training environment and you are not expecting someone to hit you? How is a person that has no training and is not aware of what you are doing and willing to submit rather then be injured react to your techniques? If you do end up with a knife in your shoulder will you be able to keep a clear enough head to act intellegently?

Scenario training helps with that. About a month ago, I was at a knife seminar conducted by a member here, who is also part of my Arnis group. After the main seminar we set up a mugging type scenario complete with obsticals. Needless to say, we didn't know how the bad guy was going to attack, what was going to happen, etc. Everyone reacted. Nothing pretty, no fancy textbook techniques, but a defense and escape was made. Its all how we train. We can all just train hard, train as realistic as we can and hope that our training kicks in.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I think that most important part of training is muscle memory. No technique applied in the real world will ever function exactly as it is does in a controlled setting. But if you have practiced enough in that controlled setting, then muscle memory will kick in and hopefully get close to being right when the adrenaline is going. Most of the techniques we learn will work just fine if they're not done perfectly.

Great post!!:ultracool This is why I try to stress to new students that the techniques are a building block. Use them to build off of, and form your own response to whats presented to you.

Mike

 

[Adept]

I work as a bouncer. If it don't work, then I quickly find out, the hard way!

I think attitude is a big part of being able to know if something works or not. You have to appreciate the factors that are consistent in real life violent altercations, and be willing to replicate them as safely as possible in the training hall. You also have to be able to measure, for yourself, how effective a technique will be for you. Taking something on the word of your instructor is never a good idea. Being able to imagine, realistically, how a technique might work on the street is a very important skill.

Accurate visualisation, one might say.

And of course, training hard with resisting opponents in an 'alive' manner, making use of scenario drills and factoring in hard contact. But that goes without saying, or at least it should.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, I'm sure every one of us here has taken a hit to the groin at some point during our training. I know I have, and I've hit some people there during sparring. In both cases, the other guy as well as myself when I got hit, stopped. I've seen this happen in MMA as well.

Early MMA allowed it, we also realise that it sucks and stop. Up the adrenhaline x10 and be in a situation where you know that if you do stop, you will be much more seiously hurt, then what happens?

After the main seminar we set up a mugging type scenario complete with obsticals. Needless to say, we didn't know how the bad guy was going to attack, what was going to happen, etc. Everyone reacted.

Which is good training, but: You are still in a martial art environment dressed in training clothes, warmed up, knowing you won't really be hurt and expecting an attack, even if not knowing when

 

[Em MacIntosh]

You gotta pick lots of fights in bars with really big people or really big groups of people and somehow not get killed. Make kissy faces at a bouncer 'till his patience runs thin. Kick motercycles over. It might not be training for them but...

Just Kidding. Never make kissy faces at a bouncer.

 

[jdinca]

Never make kissy faces at a bouncer.

:rofl: Words to live by!!!

 

[MJS]

Early MMA allowed it, we also realise that it sucks and stop. Up the adrenhaline x10 and be in a situation where you know that if you do stop, you will be much more seiously hurt, then what happens?

You said this:

Techniques can almost always be tested in some way. Effectiveness sometimes can't, but that is a different manner. Does a knee to the groin stop a person? Can I get 15 volunteers to run a test?

So up the scenario a bit and you're saying a groin hit won't work? May as well say nothing will work. I can only hope that I can protect myself enough. Afterall, our training should give us the advantage although we're not transformed into Supermen. The average Joe most likely will not have technique like a profighter. Not saying they can't fight, but if they're going to be on the level of a Martial Artist, why are any of us training?

Which is good training, but: You are still in a martial art environment dressed in training clothes, warmed up, knowing you won't really be hurt and expecting an attack, even if not knowing when

Nope. We were in street clothes and there was no formal warmup. I did no stretching, jumping jacks, etc., before the seminar. While we were 'expecting' an attack, as you say, we did not know what the attacker was going to do, therefore the element of surprise was there.

Interestingly enough, police officers use a FATS simulator, which stands for FireArms Training Simulator, to simulate situations they will face on the job. Think along the lines of laser tag. Are they really getting shot per se? No, they're not really going to die, but its putting them into a stressfull situation. As I said, its all what you make of the training.

Mike

 

[Andrew Green]

So up the scenario a bit and you're saying a groin hit won't work? May as well say nothing will work. I can only hope that I can protect myself enough. Afterall, our training should give us the advantage although we're not transformed into Supermen. The average Joe most likely will not have technique like a profighter. Not saying they can't fight, but if they're going to be on the level of a Martial Artist, why are any of us training?

Definately works, but to rely on it I tihnk is a mistake, same for anything else.

The way people react in "real" situations is different is all I was saying. In a ring fight or sparring session it is against the rules, so it causes a temporary stoppage to allow the fighter to recover and if needed, penalize the other. But the stoppage is artificial, outside of a ring it might put a guy down for the count, it might not. That is not testable.

Nope. We were in street clothes and there was no formal warmup. I did no stretching, jumping jacks, etc., before the seminar. While we were 'expecting' an attack, as you say, we did not know what the attacker was going to do, therefore the element of surprise was there.

Yes, and as I said, it is good training, but its still artifiical, or dare I say it... "sport-like" :lol:

Interestingly enough, police officers use a FATS simulator, which stands for FireArms Training Simulator, to simulate situations they will face on the job. Think along the lines of laser tag. Are they really getting shot per se? No, they're not really going to die, but its putting them into a stressfull situation. As I said, its all what you make of the training.

Mike

Yup, really shooting each other in training would not leave many cops, got to do the best we can. But no training is ever real, just captures different elements of it.

I'm not trying to argue techniques, which I believe can be tested, but rather mindset when the shift from play fighting, to someone really trying to hurt you in a unfamilliar environment by complete suprise kicks in. A fight ending injury in training might not end a real fight.

So with the FATS simulator, apart from being a lot of fun, I imagine it is very good for teaching and training the technical side of what to do in a live fire situation. Yet I also imagine that no matter how good a person is in that, and how much time they spend doing it, when somone starts firing live rounds at them and there is suddenly a chance of getting killed or wounded, maybe they even get hit, how will they react? The more training the better the odds they will do what they are supposed to, but that's still a whole different game.

 

[MJS]

Definately works, but to rely on it I tihnk is a mistake, same for anything else.

I never have and never will subscribe to the 1 shot, 1 kill mentality. I don't put my odds on anything being a fight stopper, but instead use things to buy time in between moves. If an eye jab misses its mark, but makes the guy lean back and bring his hands up to protect his eyes, which is a natural startle reflex, I acheived part of my goal. He hopefully isn't thinking about anything else but his eyes.

The way people react in "real" situations is different is all I was saying. In a ring fight or sparring session it is against the rules, so it causes a temporary stoppage to allow the fighter to recover and if needed, penalize the other. But the stoppage is artificial, outside of a ring it might put a guy down for the count, it might not. That is not testable.

Guess the only real test is to go out and pick a fight. 1 of 2 things will happen, and to quote the Tank, "There will be an *** kicking either way."

Yes, and as I said, it is good training, but its still artifiical, or dare I say it... "sport-like" :lol:

Oh, oh, you said a naughty word! LOL!

Yup, really shooting each other in training would not leave many cops, got to do the best we can. But no training is ever real, just captures different elements of it.

I'm not trying to argue techniques, which I believe can be tested, but rather mindset when the shift from play fighting, to someone really trying to hurt you in a unfamilliar environment by complete suprise kicks in. A fight ending injury in training might not end a real fight.

So with the FATS simulator, apart from being a lot of fun, I imagine it is very good for teaching and training the technical side of what to do in a live fire situation. Yet I also imagine that no matter how good a person is in that, and how much time they spend doing it, when somone starts firing live rounds at them and there is suddenly a chance of getting killed or wounded, maybe they even get hit, how will they react? The more training the better the odds they will do what they are supposed to, but that's still a whole different game.

Well, thats the best that can be done right. As close as you can, but as always there is going to be limits. Drivers ed teaches people how to drive, gives tips, etc., but when that car runs the light in the middle of winter and you slam on your breaks and start going into an uncontrolled spin, better hope that training or instict kicks in.

Mike

 

[Adept]

Just Kidding. Never make kissy faces at a bouncer.

Hot girls excluded, of course!