How important is full contact for self defense?

Deaf Smith

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What's wrong with getting a tooth knocked out of a nose broken? I never got how people get so hung up on stupid crap like that when your life could be at stake. In class I've chipped, cracked and knocked out teeth, broken my nose, cracked ribs, cracked knuckles.

Omar,

How many street fights have you been in for all that injury?

Now I'm 54. Kept out of trouble pretty much all my life and have never really need my skills. Yes I have a 7 stich scar on my head from being kicked there, bent front tooth I pushed back from being elbowed while sparring, broke little toe from Judo, broke hand from punching. I suspect if I had of worn gloves or a helmet that protects the face, or shoes, I might have not had any of those injuries yet still the same 'contact'.

I do like contact and I think some is most definatly needed, but it can be done without such injuries.

And Omar, wait till you hit your 50's and those injuries come back to haunt you.

Deaf
 

Omar B

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That's all from being over competitive in class man (the tooth thing was when I was 11 and 12 before I even knew what a mouthguard was!). I've been in precious few fights outside of the dojo, but always manage to keep my composure because my buds and I regularly beat the you know what out of each other. Call it youthful exuberance or stupidity. Doesn't matter, Iv'e never gotten hit and curled up into a crying ball on the floor like that master in the video. LOL.
 

FearlessFreep

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Here's a great example of not using contact in your training vs using contact in your training.

Wow! Was that one of those chinese acting/training schools where they teach you to fight for kung fu movies?
 

nelsonkari

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My sensei was fond of repeating a quote that I believe might have come from the late BL.

"A martial artist needs to be hurt occasionaly and stung frequently in order to keep cool in a kill or get killed situation."

Contact to some degree is required for "street smarts" outside the protective walls of the dojo. Neglect it at your peril.

Nelson Kari
 

Skpotamus

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Wow! Was that one of those chinese acting/training schools where they teach you to fight for kung fu movies?

That was actually a guy running a "self defense" school in japan that had an open challenge for for anyone willing to fight him, you put up $5k, he would double it if you won. He claimed to have over 200 challenge match victories.

A little more info on the fight and the guy is here http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/05/29/the-%E2%80%9Cbullshido%E2%80%9D-of-martial-arts-and-no-touch-knockouts/



Deaf, I agree that contact should be done safely, I think training should hurt, but not injure. But using adequate protective gear (mouthpieces, steel cup, MMA training gloves and headgear) to prevent injuries should take care of anything serious and most of the minor things too.
 

sgtmac_46

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Omar,

How many street fights have you been in for all that injury?

Now I'm 54. Kept out of trouble pretty much all my life and have never really need my skills. Yes I have a 7 stich scar on my head from being kicked there, bent front tooth I pushed back from being elbowed while sparring, broke little toe from Judo, broke hand from punching. I suspect if I had of worn gloves or a helmet that protects the face, or shoes, I might have not had any of those injuries yet still the same 'contact'.

I do like contact and I think some is most definatly needed, but it can be done without such injuries.

And Omar, wait till you hit your 50's and those injuries come back to haunt you.

Deaf
That's kind of the question, really.....how much self-defense do you feel you need. It's kind of like life insurance policies......some people need more, so they pay more, others feel they need less.

A lot of it depends on where you live, and most especially, what you do! A police officer or bouncer is going to need more than the average person (but ironically lots of cops don't get more)........a guy that lives in a nice neighborhood and works in an office? The biggest benefit to him from martial arts is statistically the exercise that will help ward off high blood pressure, diabetes and heart disease........but then one never knows.
 

sgtmac_46

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That's all from being over competitive in class man (the tooth thing was when I was 11 and 12 before I even knew what a mouthguard was!). I've been in precious few fights outside of the dojo, but always manage to keep my composure because my buds and I regularly beat the you know what out of each other. Call it youthful exuberance or stupidity. Doesn't matter, Iv'e never gotten hit and curled up into a crying ball on the floor like that master in the video. LOL.

The more one sweats (and bleeds) in training, the LESS one bleeds on the street.



Or, as was said of the Roman Army........it's maneuvers were (relatively) bloodless battles........and (consequently) it's battles were bloody maneuvers.
 

sgtmac_46

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That was actually a guy running a "self defense" school in japan that had an open challenge for for anyone willing to fight him, you put up $5k, he would double it if you won. He claimed to have over 200 challenge match victories.

A little more info on the fight and the guy is here http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/05/29/the-%E2%80%9Cbullshido%E2%80%9D-of-martial-arts-and-no-touch-knockouts/
So all I have to do to win $5,000.00 is knock this old guy out? I'm assuming the offer is no longer still standing.

I note that they made a big deal of signing the waiver........likely this is part of his psychological intimidation. He probably included in the waiver that he's not responsible if his 'Death Touch' kills the other guy, and that that is a high degree of likelihood.........a bit of power of suggestion that obviously didn't work!




As pointed out before, it's very interesting how shocked he was at getting punched in the mouth.......as if this was a whole new, unexpected sensation. A lot of no-contact folks dismiss the effect of this on the street, as if they'll worry about it and overcome it at the moment of truth.......and the result is likely just as we saw with our faux Grand Master here.........shock and awe........and fortunately for him, his opponent gave him a few seconds to overcome (somewhat.....he never overcame it completely) his initially confusion created by getting punched in the mouth. In fact, his opponent looked like he felt bad about it......'Uh....sorry old man.....you okay?'.

A boxer, Muay Thai fighter or MMA practioner would have never even blinked at getting punched in the mouth like that.......if it didn't cause enough injury to take him out of the fight, they would have shaken it off because they've experienced it and worse before.
 

Deaf Smith

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That's kind of the question, really.....how much self-defense do you feel you need. It's kind of like life insurance policies......some people need more, so they pay more, others feel they need less.

Just don't pay so much you end up as a cripple later. Those Muay Thai fighters are washed up at age 25 on the average. That ain't good.

Yes, train as hard as you can and as often as you can. For me, it's one of my two hobbies. H2H and shooting. Some people like golf, some tennis, I love to work out at a martial art and go to the range.

And you are right, sarge, about hard training keeps you from bleeding on the battle field.

Deaf, I agree that contact should be done safely, I think training should hurt, but not injure. But using adequate protective gear (mouthpieces, steel cup, MMA training gloves and headgear) to prevent injuries should take care of anything serious and most of the minor things too.

Yes. Still will get the wind knocked out of you now and then, but you will have all your teeth and no marks where wire was used to set your jaw. Back in college we didn't have gloves or cups or anything for protection. Broke my hand and got kicked in the, uh, delicate parts, several times by over-excited yellow and green belts. Black eye to (but that ok, I deserved it.)

Look guys, all I'm saying is, train hard and often, but keep in mind you goal it so be able to injure your opponent alot, but not yourself so much.

Deaf
 

still learning

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Hello, It is important (full contact)if you are a boxer or kick boxing or MMA fighter...

For most martial artist...partial contact (1/2 or less) should be ok...

IF you do full contact...YOU WILL LOSE STUDENTS....Most do not wish to get beat up at every class...or injury,black eyes,bloody noses anymore...

Sparring is OK..still not the real thing as real fighting....one can learn more with lots of sparring vs...NO or hardly any sparring....

The more REAL your training...the better prepare for the REAL STREETS'

Today...unless you fight alot...than is becomes more important for full contact....the average person...will NOT need to go full contact...

OFF course if you want hard core training...than find a class that goes full contact....some people like this kind of action...

Aloha
 

BLACK LION

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You do not have to risk injury in order to train... It is much harder to train to injure people and not do it than it is to really injure some one... it is rather easy to hurt people on purpose.
I believe that training under duress or stress is what is desireable... not being a human meat pulp... as stated above, fighters like that dont last long and once into thier 40s and 50s they will really be sorry.
You keep your longevity by being smart with your body...dont abuse it cuz you can or later on you will wish you had not.
This does not mean you cannot experience pain and discomfort in the course of learning as it is natural and necessary to the process but there is no need to put strain on your body that is not going to make you stronger for the long haul...
This is the very reason I slowed things down and concentrate more on principle elements like using my entire inseam, keeping my back straight and skeleton alligned... going slow and smooth and getting a deliberate target as well as seeing the product of that work and finding a flow in the midst of it all....

You can work you muscle and bone to combat efficiency without being a meat pulp... use tact and be smart about your training. Dont forsake yourself the fruits of a resisting partner either... I do mean practical resistance...not some dodo that has no business in a preofessional environment.
 

seasoned

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You do not have to risk injury in order to train... It is much harder to train to injure people and not do it than it is to really injure some one... it is rather easy to hurt people on purpose.
I believe that training under duress or stress is what is desireable... not being a human meat pulp... as stated above, fighters like that dont last long and once into thier 40s and 50s they will really be sorry.
You keep your longevity by being smart with your body...dont abuse it cuz you can or later on you will wish you had not.
This does not mean you cannot experience pain and discomfort in the course of learning as it is natural and necessary to the process but there is no need to put strain on your body that is not going to make you stronger for the long haul...
This is the very reason I slowed things down and concentrate more on principle elements like using my entire inseam, keeping my back straight and skeleton alligned... going slow and smooth and getting a deliberate target as well as seeing the product of that work and finding a flow in the midst of it all....

You can work you muscle and bone to combat efficiency without being a meat pulp... use tact and be smart about your training. Dont forsake yourself the fruits of a resisting partner either... I do mean practical resistance...not some dodo that has no business in a preofessional environment.
I agree whole heartedly with the above.
 

K-man

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I think there are two issues here. First is the fear or shock of being hit. That fear can be somewhat dissipated by engaging in animated sparring, with appropriate protection, and by conducting 'conditioning' training such as practised by the systema guys. The more solid hits you wear during training the more you realise that the body can absorb an enormous amount of punishment. Obviously conditioning does not protect against a full blooded ko punch to the jaw but it does take away the fear element of being hit.
The second part is far harder to train for in the dojo. In the adrenalin dump situation where someone is rushing at you, intent on putting you into intensive care at the very least, 'conditioning' will not prepare you for this attack. Even full contact sparring has its rules and you know that if you are knocked down you will get back up, eventually. On the street if you go down you may never get up, or you may live the rest of your life as a vegetable, after some lowlife has kicked the stuffing out of your head.
So let's not pretend. Unless you are in the armed forces and experienced close contact fighting, or in the police forces going into situations that are potentially lethal, you will never be prepared for the shock of all out aggression. If you're on the door and someone is acting up, he's not out to kill you, more likely trying to impress his mates with his bravado. The guy in the pub may be aggressive but it is unlikely he will really want to kill you. We can't reproduce the environment of impending death in a dojo.
Most of us train martial arts for fun and fitness, with the added benefit of knowing we can protect ourselves, or our friends and families, in most situations. After training, most of us have to go to work the next day. Very few of us would continue training if we were regularly going home with black eyes, busted ribs, bent noses and gaps in our smile.
So, yes, train with heavy contact, but remember the first rule of self-defence. Try not to be in the situation in the first place! :asian:
 

BLACK LION

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So let's not pretend. Unless you are in the armed forces and experienced close contact fighting, or in the police forces going into situations that are potentially lethal, you will never be prepared for the shock of all out aggression.

I apologize but I disagree with this statement.
 

Em MacIntosh

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I personally find it essential but it might just come down to the individual. I think it's particularly important for timid people to get over their timidity and working your way up from light contact to full contact helps you understand the forces we're dealing with, like how far a kick might throw you or knock you off balance. As far as eye gouges and knee stomps, wear goggles when training for it. It's not perfect but it makes it somewhat trainable (it's their screaming/desperate strength they unleash when you rip the eye out or crush it that would be the tough part, IMO, the technique can be rather straightforward). As far as training the knee stomp, do it very carefully to align the technique but practice stomping a board using the same technique you practice on your partner at full force. Can't comment on the neck, I don't have any cocnerns about my ability to apply the technique other than the fact that the opponent fights back. I believe there are some who, for whatever reason, don't need full contact to be effective but strongly suspect that they have some sort of prior fighting experience or have never actually seen their opinion in action. I can't assert that its necessary but it sure is for me. All is for not if you can't handle the adrenaline dump in a real situation, IMO, like the knee shakes or lead arms/deer in headlights feeling.

Also, if you want to practice biting, put a potroast in a shirt and bite it savagely:D
 

sgtmac_46

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Just don't pay so much you end up as a cripple later. Those Muay Thai fighters are washed up at age 25 on the average. That ain't good.

Yes, train as hard as you can and as often as you can. For me, it's one of my two hobbies. H2H and shooting. Some people like golf, some tennis, I love to work out at a martial art and go to the range.

And you are right, sarge, about hard training keeps you from bleeding on the battle field.
Quite right.....one must FIRST ask themselves what exactly they are training for.......and then train accordingly.
 

Martin h

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You need to hit a resisting opponent to learn HOW to hit a resisting opponent.
Hitting the bag is not the same. Hitting a resisting opponent lightly is not the same. Timing is wrong and the need to follow up and not stop is not the same

You need to get hit to learn how to get over the chock of being hit hard.
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" -Mike Tyson.

The only reason you would not need to be used to fighting while taking serious hits, is if you think you can fight a real fight without getting hit.
 

still learning

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Hello, To learn to fight for "REAL" ...is to fight for "REAL"

Army troops train and train.....when in real combat....different world! from training....

This came from a Marine Sergent...Sauda Arbia...his first time in real combat..advance scout unit.

Full contact everyday is NOT necessary....a few times in a life time? ...OK

Aloha, Football players- full contact works...imagine? ..if NOT contact allow! will it be the same?

PS: Grappling arts,Judo etc...very hands on...and close to full contact stuffs for sure!!!
 

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