Full Nelson Hold

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Transk53

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I have been a martial artist for too many years to remember. The full nelson is a dangerous move and even if you know what you're doing, you should not use that move at any time. You could seriously injure the person you do it to. I have had it done to me several times by street thugs and it has injured my spine. If you do it to others--stop it! Also do not let others do it to you. Only the smart will hear me.
Sifu

Yeah I hear you. It is dangerous if one does not know how much pressure to apply, and how to safely get compliance. Personally I used to go for arm locks, a little pressure on the elbow joint usually sufficed. If it did not then they would usually want to fight, especially if they were on the marching powder. Still you can get out of it. Sorry to hear of you're spinal predicament. That is one thing I know of and I have based my SD on such a thing. I drop my weight and use what is available. I'm lucky that I know what I am doing :)
 
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Transk53

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A good full nelson is a neck crank. Hence the danger. Tyrannosaurus arms arms will prevent it.

As far as escaping a good one. Not sure. You can drop out of a lazy one.

Mabye some sort of sep out?

There is always a way, just depends on intent and fighting spirit. If subdued then the kneck crank will work, if not then you are taking them to the floor once it is apparent that submission is not forthcoming. Most do, some don't.
 

Dirty Dog

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I have been a martial artist for too many years to remember. The full nelson is a dangerous move and even if you know what you're doing, you should not use that move at any time. You could seriously injure the person you do it to. I have had it done to me several times by street thugs and it has injured my spine. If you do it to others--stop it! Also do not let others do it to you. Only the smart will hear me.
Sifu

Yeah, because none of the other things we practice could possibly injure anyone...
Oh wait.. they're supposed to do that...
My bad.
 

Xue Sheng

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So do toe's. Especially little darling soccer players.

Way back when dinosaurs still walked the earth, when I was in Japanese Jujutsu, the little finger th ing was what we trained to get out of a Full Nelson, however we never did actually break our training partners little finger, we did however bend a few further than they liked....my little fingers included... while working on this
 
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Transk53

Transk53

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Way back when dinosaurs still walked the earth, when I was in Japanese Jujutsu, the little finger th ing was what we trained to get out of a Full Nelson, however we never did actually break our training partners little finger, we did however bend a few further than they liked....my little fingers included... while working on this

Can imagine. Bending the thumb is not pleasant either.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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As to escaping, it depends how it is applied. Most people don't apply it properly which gives you the opportunity to escape from what people think is the right technique. Applied properly there is virtually no escape. The secret is to escape before the lock is fully on or even earlier.

That is the secret to escape before it is fully applied. Once applied it is bloody hard to get out of. Especially if the person applying it is bigger and stronger than you. Once fully on and they are strong, good luck!
 

Buka

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That is the secret to escape before it is fully applied. Once applied it is bloody hard to get out of. Especially if the person applying it is bigger and stronger than you. Once fully on and they are strong, good luck!

Brian - ever try what I mentioned in post 7? Maybe give it a whirl.
 

oftheherd1

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But the thumb is much stronger than the pinky and the pinky is at the top in a full nelson hold and much easier to get too

True, but the pinky is smaller and harder to grasp. Not that it can't be done, just requires a lot of practice. Of course, what doesn't?

That is the secret to escape before it is fully applied. Once applied it is bloody hard to get out of. Especially if the person applying it is bigger and stronger than you. Once fully on and they are strong, good luck!

If you are lifted off the ground, you may be able to kick a kneecap. Or you may be able to strike into the opponent's head with alternating elbows as well as knee strikes.

If not, in the Hapkido I learned I was taught, we were taught to go for the middle finger. We were taught to strike if forcefully, bending it as you force it back. You have a good chance of breaking it (you have to learn how to strike to lessen the chance you will scratch yourself with his fingernail). You reach up with the opposite hand and with a tight grab of the finger, begin cranking it back. The next part is more difficult to describe than watch, but is devastating. If for example you struck with your left hand, you would be grabbing the finger with your right hand. As you crank it back, pivot 180 on your left foot, moving your right wrist in contact with your opponent. His palm will be towards you, bent back painfully. Step back with your right foot, bending your left knee. That forces him down and forward into your right knee as you bring it up to knee him in the face/head.

That may be hard to conceptualize, but when you see it it is easier to follow and learn. Oh, you may have to slack off just a bit after applying back pressure. We also use the same technique for a two handed grab from the rear where the fingers are interlocked. I was showing that to a KATUSA in our office. It was flowing smoothly until I realized I had pulled it back a long ways without him releasing his grip, and I heard a sudden hissing intake of breath. I released it some and he unlocked his knuckles and it all went well again. Well, except for the very pained look on his face. :) Actually, I felt rather bad. But he was a 3rd dan in TKD, and a good sport. Also, his brother had studied Hapkido to 1st dan so he understood there was potential for pain and injury. But I learned to be especially careful of showing techniques to non-Hapkido students.
 

K-man

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True, but the pinky is smaller and harder to grasp. Not that it can't be done, just requires a lot of practice. Of course, what doesn't?



If you are lifted off the ground, you may be able to kick a kneecap. Or you may be able to strike into the opponent's head with alternating elbows as well as knee strikes.

If not, in the Hapkido I learned I was taught, we were taught to go for the middle finger. We were taught to strike if forcefully, bending it as you force it back. You have a good chance of breaking it (you have to learn how to strike to lessen the chance you will scratch yourself with his fingernail). You reach up with the opposite hand and with a tight grab of the finger, begin cranking it back. The next part is more difficult to describe than watch, but is devastating. If for example you struck with your left hand, you would be grabbing the finger with your right hand. As you crank it back, pivot 180 on your left foot, moving your right wrist in contact with your opponent. His palm will be towards you, bent back painfully. Step back with your right foot, bending your left knee. That forces him down and forward into your right knee as you bring it up to knee him in the face/head.

That may be hard to conceptualize, but when you see it it is easier to follow and learn. Oh, you may have to slack off just a bit after applying back pressure. We also use the same technique for a two handed grab from the rear where the fingers are interlocked. I was showing that to a KATUSA in our office. It was flowing smoothly until I realized I had pulled it back a long ways without him releasing his grip, and I heard a sudden hissing intake of breath. I released it some and he unlocked his knuckles and it all went well again. Well, except for the very pained look on his face. :) Actually, I felt rather bad. But he was a 3rd dan in TKD, and a good sport. Also, his brother had studied Hapkido to 1st dan so he understood there was potential for pain and injury. But I learned to be especially careful of showing techniques to non-Hapkido students.
I think the point that is not being addressed is that locks and holds have varying levels of application. In a real situation an arm bar can be a restraint at one end of the scale and total joint destruction at the other. In training we are at the restraint end. We learn to apply it with control to the level where it can't be reversed if it is properly applied.

The full Nelson is the same. I have never had anyone reverse it on me when properly applied. The pain is such that you can't reach for a finger and in the real world, in a life and death situation, the neck will break before anyone can get a hand near your fingers.

Play around with reversing locks and holds but don't forget that you can only do it because your partner is not really trying to damage you.

The only real answer is, 'don't let them apply it in the first place'. Aikido is great training for that because you are learning to go with the force in order to reverse it.
 

oftheherd1

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I think the point that is not being addressed is that locks and holds have varying levels of application. In a real situation an arm bar can be a restraint at one end of the scale and total joint destruction at the other. In training we are at the restraint end. We learn to apply it with control to the level where it can't be reversed if it is properly applied.

The full Nelson is the same. I have never had anyone reverse it on me when properly applied. The pain is such that you can't reach for a finger and in the real world, in a life and death situation, the neck will break before anyone can get a hand near your fingers.

Play around with reversing locks and holds but don't forget that you can only do it because your partner is not really trying to damage you.

The only real answer is, 'don't let them apply it in the first place'. Aikido is great training for that because you are learning to go with the force in order to reverse it.

I guess you aren't familiar with hapkido. We are also taught to begin our counter as soon as we realize an attack is on the way. We also do a lot of neck (along with other) strengthening exercises, as I am sure you do in Aikido as well.

When I was teaching, I tried to get my students to always have a focus for their attacks/counter-attacks.
 

K-man

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Brian - ever try what I mentioned in post 7? Maybe give it a whirl.
We tried it out tonight but with limited success. I had difficulty getting my arm across the chest and it didn't break the grip for me. It worked better before the lock was applied but in that situation I prefer a couple of other defences. Any suggestions as to how I could improve the move?
 

Tony Dismukes

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I think the point that is not being addressed is that locks and holds have varying levels of application. In a real situation an arm bar can be a restraint at one end of the scale and total joint destruction at the other. In training we are at the restraint end. We learn to apply it with control to the level where it can't be reversed if it is properly applied.

The full Nelson is the same. I have never had anyone reverse it on me when properly applied. The pain is such that you can't reach for a finger and in the real world, in a life and death situation, the neck will break before anyone can get a hand near your fingers.

Play around with reversing locks and holds but don't forget that you can only do it because your partner is not really trying to damage you.

The only real answer is, 'don't let them apply it in the first place'. Aikido is great training for that because you are learning to go with the force in order to reverse it.
Pretty much. Almost any hold can (potentially) be escaped if the opponent is using it just as a static restraint. However if the opponent is using the hold to inflict damage then there comes a point of no return. Asking how to escape an arm bar/full nelson/rear naked choke/etc applied by someone who knows what they are doing and has it fully sunk in is like asking how to counter a left hook after it has already landed on your jaw.

That said, most people probably don't know how to apply a full nelson properly and it isn't the easiest hold to land on a defender who is paying attention and not asleep at the wheel.
 

McDooginz

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Any hold can be broken or escaped from, sometimes. ("sometimes" being the key word in that sentence) But, as has been said, don't get into it in the first place.

Here's something you might like - when they're going for the Full Nelson, just as you feel their arms shooting through under your arm pits - throw one arm over your head like an umbrella, your bicep tight against you ear, at the same time shoot your other arm across your chest and grab the back of your ribs. The hold is thwarted, despite their strength, and their arms are trapped. (obviously, you hold tight and active) From there, it's more fun for you than it is for them.

Go try it, it's nice.

Or you just have small arms like me. ;)

My friend tried to put me in one and succeeded, but not for long.
 
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