Forearm blocks

[JamesB]

This came up in class tonight so I thought I'd try and get some opinions here:

We were looking at the "inward forearm block" and "outward forearm block" in the EPAK-24 system (blue-belt level). To a beginner these blocks appear to be similar to the regular inward & outward-vertical blocks found at yellow belt level. To get the ball rolling, this is how I execute the blocks from a horse-stance:

Inward: same circular motion as the inward block. Instead of extending the forearm out+away at 45-degrees (by punching the fist away from you), the arm is brought towards the center-line in a horizontal motion with the under-side of the forearm facing away from you (the soft underside strikes, not the outer edge of the ulna-bone.

Outward: same motion as the outward-vertical, but there is no rotation of the forearm around the elbow-joint. When complete, the arm is in the same position as the o.v.b but the upper-side of the forearm is pointing to your side instead of forewards+away from you. In both cases the fist+wrist are aligned in the same way you would execute a punch/regular block (i.e. straight - no bend at the wrist).

Would appreciate any comments on my descriptions..am I doing these completing wrong?

Moving on, my questions are:

1. where in the EPAK-24 kenpo syllabus do these two blocks occur (other than as a "basic")? My understanding is:

A. There is an isolated inward-forearm block towards the end of long-form-2

B. *Maybe* an outward-forearm-block as part of the initial defence in Entwined-Maces (the right-outward-forearm-block to the outside of the attacker's right-reverse-punch after the first inward block to the outside of the attacker's left punch). I'm unsure here my memory is a little hazy.

can't find any other usages (yet!)

2. What is a good scenario to apply either of these blocks to?

2. Are they really "blocks" - maybe a misaliging mechanism instead?

3. What is the correct method of execution?

4. Why choose a "forearm" block instead of the (as I understand) structurally stronger "regular" block?

5. When/where did they originate? where they imported from an older kungfu system to "bulk out" the kenpo-karate syllabus or is there more importance behind their existence?

6. Do these blocks exist in the SL-4 curriculum? (quite interested to have this particular question answered).

Just looking for some insights or ideas to play with...

cheers,
James

 

[parkerkarate]

This came up in class tonight so I thought I'd try and get some opinions here:

We were looking at the "inward forearm block" and "outward forearm block" in the EPAK-24 system (blue-belt level). To a beginner these blocks appear to be similar to the regular inward & outward-vertical blocks found at yellow belt level. To get the ball rolling, this is how I execute the blocks from a horse-stance:

Inward: same circular motion as the inward block. Instead of extending the forearm out+away at 45-degrees (by punching the fist away from you), the arm is brought towards the center-line in a horizontal motion with the under-side of the forearm facing away from you (the soft underside strikes, not the outer edge of the ulna-bone.

Outward: same motion as the outward-vertical, but there is no rotation of the forearm around the elbow-joint. When complete, the arm is in the same position as the o.v.b but the upper-side of the forearm is pointing to your side instead of forewards+away from you. In both cases the fist+wrist are aligned in the same way you would execute a punch/regular block (i.e. straight - no bend at the wrist).

Would appreciate any comments on my descriptions..am I doing these completing wrong?

Moving on, my questions are:

1. where in the EPAK-24 kenpo syllabus do these two blocks occur (other than as a "basic")? My understanding is:

A. There is an isolated inward-forearm block towards the end of long-form-2

B. *Maybe* an outward-forearm-block as part of the initial defence in Entwined-Maces (the right-outward-forearm-block to the outside of the attacker's right-reverse-punch after the first inward block to the outside of the attacker's left punch). I'm unsure here my memory is a little hazy.

can't find any other usages (yet!)

2. What is a good scenario to apply either of these blocks to?

2. Are they really "blocks" - maybe a misaliging mechanism instead?

3. What is the correct method of execution?

4. Why choose a "forearm" block instead of the (as I understand) structurally stronger "regular" block?

5. When/where did they originate? where they imported from an older kungfu system to "bulk out" the kenpo-karate syllabus or is there more importance behind their existence?

6. Do these blocks exist in the SL-4 curriculum? (quite interested to have this particular question answered).

Just looking for some insights or ideas to play with...

cheers,
James

1. Raining Claw, has an inward forarm block right off the bat. Prancing the Tiger also has one after the backknuckle. I have seen an outward forearm block with Circles of Protection. That is all I can think of right now. Unless you call the first move in Broken Ram a block, I think it is more of a strike.

3. There is only one way to execute these really.

4. In certain scenerios a old fashion block will not really work. Especially in the two I have pointed out above.

I am sorry but I do not know the answers to 2,5, or 6. But hopefully this helped some.

 

[JamesB]

Hi! thanks for replying - I call the forearm block in raining claw a "downward" forearm rather than "inward" and didn't intend to include this block in my question....anyhow the way I execute this technique is to use an inward+downward hammerfist

Also I guess I'm doing prance-of-the-tiger differently to some as I can't identify anywhere in this tech that there is an inward forearm - after the back-knuckle strike I execute a palm-heel so I guess this is the difference.

I'm really just trying to understand what factors dictate the use of a forearm block rather than a regular "stronger" block..

anyhow thanks for replying it has helped!
cheers,
James

 

[Seabrook]

All I can say about Prance of the Tiger is that if you want to see it executed like none other, you need to check out Larry Tatum's most recent tip of the week:

www.ltatum.com

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Dan G]

Moving on, my questions are:

1. where in the EPAK-24 kenpo syllabus do these two blocks occur (other than as a "basic")? My understanding is:

A. There is an isolated inward-forearm block towards the end of long-form-2

B. *Maybe* an outward-forearm-block as part of the initial defence in Entwined-Maces (the right-outward-forearm-block to the outside of the attacker's right-reverse-punch after the first inward block to the outside of the attacker's left punch). I'm unsure here my memory is a little hazy.

can't find any other usages (yet!)

2. What is a good scenario to apply either of these blocks to?

2. Are they really "blocks" - maybe a misaliging mechanism instead?

3. What is the correct method of execution?

4. Why choose a "forearm" block instead of the (as I understand) structurally stronger "regular" block?

5. When/where did they originate? where they imported from an older kungfu system to "bulk out" the kenpo-karate syllabus or is there more importance behind their existence?

6. Do these blocks exist in the SL-4 curriculum? (quite interested to have this particular question answered).

Just looking for some insights or ideas to play with...

cheers,
James

Hi James!

Good questions, I find these really confusing so glad you raised it.

I wonder about question 2 - it sort of makes sense to me given (I think) that there is a sort of circular rolling motion to the movements... Is the idea to have a kind of flicking effect, similar to when you roll a ball down the arm and pop the elbow to send it flying? Would give a different energy to the motion I guess.

Is a closer range or tight timing a key to using them effectively? At first I thought they were last ditch "oh s##t!" type blocks, but now I wonder if they belong more in the contact manipulation range...

Honestly no idea on these,(grazing blows are another area I am really unclear on - could be the next question to ask)

Cheers for the post, will be interesting to see what answers are out there!

Dan

 

[Dan G]

Hi James!

Is the idea to have a kind of flicking effect, similar to when you roll a ball down the arm and pop the elbow to send it flying? Would give a different energy to the motion I guess.

Thinking about it more I wonder if a "rippling" motion is a better description than a flicking motion? I am visualising a rippling wave beginning at the feet, and passing through the opponents body with a slightly sticky pushing-flicking effect rather than the "harder" impact of the basic blocks... but I am not sure if I am describing this well, or if it makes sense.

Also wondering if the circular motion with the forearm blocks is especially applicable to the armbars we use - I have seen some systems use a "filing" motion to give added pain compliance effect - not sure if the forearm blocks will produce an analagous effect. Will try and play with it tonight in training if there is time. (Does this also lead towards one understanding of graze blows? Not sure.)

Cheers,

Dan

 

[hammer]

All I can say about Prance of the Tiger is that if you want to see it executed like none other, you need to check out Larry Tatum's most recent tip of the week:

www.ltatum.com

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

That is an awesome Clip,

Poor John (Mr Tatums assistant)

Mr Seabrook, could you share with us your experiences working on techniques with Mr Tatum, or perhaps Clyde. Unfortunately I have only ever seen Mr Tatum on video or on the net, and each time I veiw Mr Tatum do his thing, it leaves me with my jaw on the floor thinking Wow!

Cheers
Damien

 

[Dan G]

All I can say about Prance of the Tiger is that if you want to see it executed like none other, you need to check out Larry Tatum's most recent tip of the week:

www.ltatum.com

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Ouch!

Lots of respect to John - tough crash test dummy!:asian:

Dan

 

[Seabrook]

Mr Seabrook, could you share with us your experiences working on techniques with Mr Tatum, or perhaps Clyde.

To date, my experiences with both are minimal (as I am relatively new to the LTKKA) although I just had the opportunity of training with both of them last month at the LTKKA summer camp in Las Vegas.

All I can say is that I have trained with several of kenpo's top 1st-generation black belts (some extensively, some not a lot), and to date I haven't seen any move like Larry can. His speed and precision are outstanding, especially in person.

Since we are on that topic, he called me up for Prance of the Tiger at the camp - wow, what an awesome feeling. After the stiff leg raise to the groin, he hit me with those two knees to the chest so fast and hard, the shots simply echoed. The amazing thing, however, is that it only hurt for a second or two because of how good of control he hits with. Larry is very articulate in his teaching and does a great job at making sure everyone understands what he is talking about.

Clyde's seminar was simply awesome as well. We did some random techniques but he disected them so well and definitely took them to new levels. Clyde emphasizes how the what-if scenario is meant for people without a full knowledge of the system and how ideal, even-if, ideal works. It's not necessary to understand the “what-if” phase since they are already built into the extensions anyway (yet another reason why I can't understand why so many kenpoists don't teach the extensions).

I am going to the East Coast Camp in PA from Sept 30-Oct 2nd to train with Larry and Clyde (as well as a host of others). The website is:

www.kenpomastery.com

Hope that helps.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[hammer]

Mr Seebrook , thank you for sharing, At some godly hour this morning I posted

That is an awesome Clip,

Poor John (Mr Tatums assistant)

Mr Seabrook, could you share with us your experiences working on techniques with Mr Tatum, or perhaps Clyde. Unfortunately I have only ever seen Mr Tatum on video or on the net, and each time I veiw Mr Tatum do his thing, it leaves me with my jaw on the floor thinking Wow!

Cheers
Damien

My comment was meant to say if either Mr seabrook or perhaps Clyde could share with us their experiences working on techniques with Mr Tatum,

Just had it *** about , Im certian im dyslexic,

Sorry Gents,

Cheers
Damien

 

[Doc]

6. Do these blocks exist in the SL-4 curriculum? (quite interested to have this particular question answered).
cheers,
James

As near as I can determine from your written description, no! Sublevel Four Kenpo is all about consistent and proper structure that is measureably demonstrable. Your description does not seem to fit that SL-4 requirement.

 

[JamesB]

As near as I can determine from your written description, no! Sublevel Four Kenpo is all about consistent and proper structure that is measureably demonstrable. Your description does not seem to fit that SL-4 requirement.

Thankyou Sir, that has actually helped to clear my confusion somewhat - or confirmed my suspicions anyway. I did my best to describe the motion and it would have helped if I understood these actions better...

So far my thinking is that these blocks (including the downward forearm found in EPAK-24's Raining Claw) exist to support the motion-side of kenpo - raking, flowing motions etc.

i.e. with the inward forearm one might use the base of the forearm and elbow to strike rather than the middle of the forearm. With the outward forearm block this might be interpreted as a form of backfist. The downward forearm's raking motion also fits nicely into the motion vehicle. e.g. interpret it any way you want that's the whole point of the motion concept.

So they either were deliberately not intended to be structured or "most effective" - or have been misinterpreted (and misunderstood by at least me) at some point in time. It would be interesting to see at what period these "blocks" were introduced into mainstream kenpo syllabi as I feel this would be a good indication as to their intended use.

Any more comments from people here?

 

[Doc]

Thankyou Sir, that has actually helped to clear my confusion somewhat - or confirmed my suspicions anyway. I did my best to describe the motion and it would have helped if I understood these actions better...

So far my thinking is that these blocks (including the downward forearm found in EPAK-24's Raining Claw) exist to support the motion-side of kenpo - raking, flowing motions etc.

i.e. with the inward forearm one might use the base of the forearm and elbow to strike rather than the middle of the forearm. With the outward forearm block this might be interpreted as a form of backfist. The downward forearm's raking motion also fits nicely into the motion vehicle. e.g. interpret it any way you want that's the whole point of the motion concept.

So they either were deliberately not intended to be structured or "most effective" - or have been misinterpreted (and misunderstood by at least me) at some point in time. It would be interesting to see at what period these "blocks" were introduced into mainstream kenpo syllabi as I feel this would be a good indication as to their intended use.

Any more comments from people here?

Well sir, SL-4™ does have an "inward downward forearm block" utilized in "Raining Palm" (Claw), as a basic or default mechanism in that technique. It is described as a collapsed inward block where the hand never drops below the height of your own elbow. Although the blocking surface extends from the elbow to the first knuckle of the baby finger, as skill levels rise students begin to use this block more offensively, ultimately attacking the arm with a precise hammer to nerves in the arm, as opposed to "blocking" with the forearm.