Thrusting Inward Blocks

[Kenpodoc]

My brain works a little oddly and while driving home yesterday I was thinking about Delayed Sword. This brought me to inward blocks. The thrusting inward block as generally taught comes from the hip directly to the corner of the imaginary box one side of which is your two shoulders. The more that I thought aolut this action the more that I feel that while you can use this description to describe the lowermost movement into an inward blocking position, it becomes essentially a check with no useful force. The line of energy in this movement comes through the fist in a line of action which makes any strike by the forearm at most a glancing blow. On the otherhand the hammering inward block moves the line of force perpendicular to the forearm with path of action and the entire forearm becomes a strike. So while they look superficially the same at the end the difference in effectiveness and action between the two is quite different. Should inward blocks always contain circular motion to allow the forearm to become a striking rather than glancing force?

Jeff

 

[Touch Of Death]

Absolutely not! I can agree that a hammering inward block, is one of the strongest hand basics we can perform; however, that does not mean you throw the rest out. If you are moving from point of origin and thrust is your closest reference point then you are bound by 'economy of motion' to execute a thrust. Anything else takes to much time. Besides, if you are stepping off the line of attack and creating a margin for error, you don't need all that power.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Delayed Sword (1st move) has no inward block in the first place. It's an inward strike.

:asian:

 

[Bode]

Some elements of the technique to consider.
Delayed Sword's attack is a right hand grab to the lapel, with, possibly, a follow up left punch, right?

If so, is economy of motion necessary? If a person grabs you there is no reason to respond until you determine the threat. No punch, then you have all the time in the world to deliver a hammering block (strike). This is a Significant Initial Response, which will, if delivered properly, more than likely drop the attack to his knees. (Depending on target... bicep or shoulder joint, which both correspond to nerve meridians)

If there is a punch, a "circular" block with the right hand should help catch the attackers left punching hand. Of course, the stepping back into a right neutral bow should check the attackers width and assist in negating the punch, but if you cannot step back, the block should catch the punch.

I agree with KenpoDoc here. The block is less effective if delivered from point of origin for reasons you stated and, I believe, my above rational.

Should inward blocks always contain circular motion to allow the forearm to become a striking rather than glancing force?

Depends on the size of the circle. From my experience, as I get better, my circles get smaller and stronger. In the beginning the inward block has a sharp edge circular movement. Akin to writing in big, bold, print. As I have improved and the muscles (brain) have had a chance to "memorize" the movement, the hard edged circle becomes smoother and smaller, but maintain the same structural integrity.
Doc's inward block has evolved to the point where he is "writing in very tiny, rounded, cursive." The circles are intangible, but exist. The muscles and brain have been hardwired to the point where thinking about the movement is enough. If you don't believe it, have him come do a seminar! Ouch...

I realize this fly's in the face of what traditional Kenpo does. Even the hammering inward block is done differently. We don't have a "point of origin" block per se.
This is all very hard to explain without physical examples or ways in which you can test it yourself. Perhaps we can devise a description of how to test an "indexed" (which is the term for it) inward block. Dr. Dave? Have the time?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sure the hammer is what you should use, but only if you already put your hands up at your opponents approach. I get the gist of your tight circles but if its too tight you miss the power of the hammer, which means you are simply thrusting with your arm bent. If you don't feel the drop, you didn't have one.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Oh and yes you do have point of origin. Look at your hands right at this second. Where ever they are in space relative to your body is point of origin. Hope that helped.
Sean

 

[Rick Wade]

Great Post Sean,

I would also like to point out a few other considerations.

Me and some guys here like to practice on each other and non of us are from the same system.

When I tell them to grab me with a left lapel grab and act like you are going to punch. I notice a few things:

1. There feet are never in a squared stance i.e. horse or training stance, thus not providing a clear shot to the groin as done in most Kenpo schools.

2. That left arm is never straight. Providing a shot to the bicep as a better target. but the down fall to this is that you have to watch out for that head of the attackers. If you hit that nerve in the bicep he is liable to pull forward involuntary and the head also snaps forward becoming a weapon when the attacker doesn't know what is coming. I know I have been hit by a head when we do these exercises. Funny but not fun.

3. When my friend starts arguing with me my hands go up into a defensive position palms out and they are that away before he ever grabs me. So the hands are not down at the side.


These are just some perspectives I get when I train with my non American Kenpo buddies. Just remember there is no wrong way to attack but you can get hurt if you defend yourself with a wrong technique and there are no better what if than a guy that is willing to subject himself to a couple scenarios. If you try this what I have found is just tell him the attack and let him or her figure out the actual attack don't worry about his feet placement or other things just defend yourself.

My 2 cents.

Very Respectfully

Rick English

RIP
GM

 

[Bode]

Sure the hammer is what you should use, but only if you already put your hands up at your opponents approach

Good point. I didn't want to attempt to describe the movement, but we just that... we put our hands up. However, we do this for certain reasons. The index points we utilize on the way to putting our hands up, help recruite muscle and align the body. In doing so we have also misaligned the attackers body by stepping back and waiting for a pull or the attempted left hand punch.
Sounds complicated, but it's very easy.

Oh and yes you do have point of origin. Look at your hands right at this second. Where ever they are in space relative to your body is point of origin

I know you are trying to clarify, but I do understand point of origin as you described. Only our high ranking black belts, perform anything that resembles point of origin... and even then we never use the term. The index points I mentioned are always utilized, but in ever smaller circles or arcs. At some point they cease to be noticed and become what looks like point of origin. Again, hard to explain, easy to show... especially since I only have a few minutes.

Providing a shot to the bicep as a better target. but the down fall to this is that you have to watch out for that head of the attackers.

I 100% agree. That is why, for the most part, we target the area where the nerve in the front deltoid. (Don't have the name in mind). You could also strike the bicep on a angle such that the head does not come forward, but rather slightly sideways.

3. When my friend starts arguing with me my hands go up into a defensive position palms out and they are that away before he ever grabs me. So the hands are not down at the side.

Sounds exactly like what we do, but on the way we incorporate the indexing.

Mr. Wade, how where are your hands? Shoulder level, just curious.
Always trying to learn...

 

[Rick Wade]

Actually my hands start in what Mr. Pick calls twelve points. If you put you hands up in front of you your elbows and hands (or fist) should never be on the same plane if you look at them from the front or side or top. Follow the Link for a Picture Universal Kenpo Federation. If you imagine this picture you turn your palms out you have a great disguised defensive position.

V/R

Rick English

P.S. Rick Wade is only my screen name.... no harm no foul just thought you might like to know.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Delayed Sword (1st move) has no inward block in the first place. It's an inward strike.

:asian:

Sorry I guess I should have been more explicit. I was thinking about delayed sword as an example of progessive use of force. First you say (Pysically not verbally)"get your hands off me," then you say "stay away from me" then you say "oh well just lie on the ground." This made me then go to the initial strike and I realized what I'd known physically but not verbally, that a thrusting inward block would not work as a strike in this instance. Now I know that once the block is properly in position that it is quite solid due to structural alignment, but what about the intermediate portion during the move from the hip? Also would a circular motion from the hip allow more path of action and striking force to the forearm and thus be more effective despite the slightly longer (temporally and distance wise) Path.

Sometimes I'm just stupid but for some reason the similarity of the final blocking position of the thrusting and hammering inward blocks coused me to fail to recognize the dramatic difference in physics between the two.

Resctfully,

Jeff :asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

Absolutely not! I can agree that a hammering inward block, is one of the strongest hand basics we can perform; however, that does not mean you throw the rest out. If you are moving from point of origin and thrust is your closest reference point then you are bound by 'economy of motion' to execute a thrust. Anything else takes to much time. Besides, if you are stepping off the line of attack and creating a margin for error, you don't need all that power.
Sean

I guess my question here is, does the few extra inches of movement add a significantly longer period of time versus the improved dynamics of the strike. Mr. Planas would say you don't have to move fast just faster than your opponent. Stepping off line adds another component but should give you time to execute the more effective hammering block. I am not really suggesting that we forget the straight line of the standard thrusting block but rather wondering if we should be practicing a third intermediate circling inward block from the low position.

thanks for responding,

Jeff :asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

Sure the hammer is what you should use, but only if you already put your hands up at your opponents approach. I get the gist of your tight circles but if its too tight you miss the power of the hammer, which means you are simply thrusting with your arm bent. If you don't feel the drop, you didn't have one.
Sean

I think I have to disagree here. A light circular motion of the fist accompanied by appropiate settling into a stance should provide significant drop which would be felt by the attacker but not necessarily look dramatic to the onlooker. An example of this would be my perception to the force my son hits me with when we pass down the backfist. He has been practicing settling with the strike and it looks very similar to his old strike but now leaves a mark which lasts for hours. (I'm so proud .)

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

One other question is, does the forearm move in a circular motion if proper body mechanics are executed? In swimming 10 years ago they were teaching an S shaped sculling motion of the hand since underwater films showed the best swimmers moving with a sweeping S shaped motion of their hand and forearm. Now studies have hown that the best swimmers were just pulling straigth back and the apparent sculling action came from appropriate body roll and body mechanics. Just like Kenpo good swimmers swim with their whole body and not just their arms.

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

Great Post Sean,

I would also like to point out a few other considerations.

Me and some guys here like to practice on each other and non of us are from the same system.

When I tell them to grab me with a left lapel grab and act like you are going to punch. I notice a few things:

1. There feet are never in a squared stance i.e. horse or training stance, thus not providing a clear shot to the groin as done in most Kenpo schools.

2. That left arm is never straight. Providing a shot to the bicep as a better target. but the down fall to this is that you have to watch out for that head of the attackers. If you hit that nerve in the bicep he is liable to pull forward involuntary and the head also snaps forward becoming a weapon when the attacker doesn't know what is coming. I know I have been hit by a head when we do these exercises. Funny but not fun.

3. When my friend starts arguing with me my hands go up into a defensive position palms out and they are that away before he ever grabs me. So the hands are not down at the side.


These are just some perspectives I get when I train with my non American Kenpo buddies. Just remember there is no wrong way to attack but you can get hurt if you defend yourself with a wrong technique and there are no better what if than a guy that is willing to subject himself to a couple scenarios. If you try this what I have found is just tell him the attack and let him or her figure out the actual attack don't worry about his feet placement or other things just defend yourself.

My 2 cents.

Very Respectfully

Rick English

RIP
GM

Good points. If Mr. Pick happened to have his hands down would they move in a circular motion or in a straight line?

Jeff

 

[Rick Wade]

I could not nor would I ever speak for Mr. Pick or anyone. I don't care what there rank is. Heck half the time I have a hard time speaking for myself.

Back to the subject.

My arm would still travel in a straight line. thrusting the strike in a Horizontal position. a point I want to make clear is that given the point of origin (hands at side one would have to figure out that the hand and forearm are traveling in a circular motion; however, given that you are doing a stance transition at the same time it will feel more like a straight line. You will want to settle in the stance at the same time you execute that thrusting block/strike so that you will cause the maximum amount of pain (marriage of gravity). If you elongate you circle to much that block will come in a down ward motion bringing him down instead of opening his body for the next kick.


Think I am starting to Ramble.

V/R

Rick

 

[BruceCalkins]

My brain works a little oddly and while driving home yesterday I was thinking about Delayed Sword. This brought me to inward blocks. The thrusting inward block as generally taught comes from the hip directly to the corner of the imaginary box one side of which is your two shoulders. The more that I thought aolut this action the more that I feel that while you can use this description to describe the lowermost movement into an inward blocking position, it becomes essentially a check with no useful force. The line of energy in this movement comes through the fist in a line of action which makes any strike by the forearm at most a glancing blow. On the otherhand the hammering inward block moves the line of force perpendicular to the forearm with path of action and the entire forearm becomes a strike. So while they look superficially the same at the end the difference in effectiveness and action between the two is quite different. Should inward blocks always contain circular motion to allow the forearm to become a striking rather than glancing force?

Jeff

Great Question Jeff.
Just remember the difference between using this move on the street and in the school. first Delayed Sword in from Nutral Bow and your Hand is in the air. not chambered by your waist. You can generate the circle needed for the force and also you are striking the nerve so not much in needed of done right to make it effective. On the street you wont always be in a stance but it is best to have your hands in a defensive position in the air in front of you. Again you will be throwing the block from a non chambered point. Throwing it from chamber is in the forms and school not as much in the street fight. Also remember what Mr. Mills has said for years. "A Block is a Strike and A Stike is A Block."

 

[Goldendragon7]

Remember what Mr. Mills has said for years. "A Block is a Strike and A Stike is A Block."

Aaaaaaaaa well, he also might have said it for years.... but the fact of the matter is ........ that Ed Parker had said it for years before Paul did.

:ultracool

 

[Ray]

Aaaaaaaaa well, he also might have said it for years.... but the fact of the matter is ........ that Ed Parker had said it for years before Paul did.

Classic, isn't it? And I believe Mr. Parker also said "old stories have new meaning when heard by new ears" or something to that effect.

Long time ago, when my instructor said "he who hestitates..." I thought it was his original.

 

[c2kenpo]

My brain works a little oddly and while driving home yesterday I was thinking about Delayed Sword. This brought me to inward blocks. The thrusting inward block as generally taught comes from the hip directly to the corner of the imaginary box one side of which is your two shoulders. The more that I thought aolut this action the more that I feel that while you can use this description to describe the lowermost movement into an inward blocking position, it becomes essentially a check with no useful force. The line of energy in this movement comes through the fist in a line of action which makes any strike by the forearm at most a glancing blow. On the otherhand the hammering inward block moves the line of force perpendicular to the forearm with path of action and the entire forearm becomes a strike. So while they look superficially the same at the end the difference in effectiveness and action between the two is quite different. Should inward blocks always contain circular motion to allow the forearm to become a striking rather than glancing force?

Jeff

Please allow me to add my thoughts with no disrespect intended.

First as pointed out Kenpo Mr. Parker made almost everything a strike/block as was added in the thread later.
For Delayed Sword I veiw the technique in 2 forms with hands up in air as if in a fight already and from the hips (frankly in a heated discussion or argument I have no clue why my hands would still be there but lets assume they are from holding something or a child behind me, etc etc,

The thrusting inward block even tho linear in motion is a highly effective strike/block as it is designed to create a path of deflection of the incoming attack of course the most important aspect is that once the angle of deflection has been met grafting to whip to the outward handsword with all the other principles of motion backing it is what makes that technique, not the intital response/checking phase of the inward block/strike. Simply by looking at the techniques adding wider paths of action to our arm to create a more "hammering effect" is non efficent use of motion and goes past the easy motion barriers. Everything I can do to simplify my motion and make me faster will help me in the eventual outcome provided I do not sacrifice the other principles of motion.

But this as with all of our motion is subjective to body types points of refrence/ origin etc etc. The "Basics" have evolved quite a bit over the last 20 years I have seen in numerous vid clips from all around the world. I am sure as the future of Kenpo continues to evolve it will be visible to see the change in 10 years again.

As my instructors say to me , as was probably said to them etc. Better to be the coffee table that your oppnent runs into then running into it.

David Gunzburg

 

[Doc]

My brain works a little oddly and while driving home yesterday I was thinking about Delayed Sword. This brought me to inward blocks. The thrusting inward block as generally taught comes from the hip directly to the corner of the imaginary box one side of which is your two shoulders. The more that I thought aolut this action the more that I feel that while you can use this description to describe the lowermost movement into an inward blocking position, it becomes essentially a check with no useful force. The line of energy in this movement comes through the fist in a line of action which makes any strike by the forearm at most a glancing blow. On the otherhand the hammering inward block moves the line of force perpendicular to the forearm with path of action and the entire forearm becomes a strike. So while they look superficially the same at the end the difference in effectiveness and action between the two is quite different. Should inward blocks always contain circular motion to allow the forearm to become a striking rather than glancing force?

Jeff

Absolutely anatomically correct sir. Good observations. There are other reasons as well.