Elliptical Motion

[KenpoEMT]

Elliptical Motion

I remember when I first learned Retreating Pendulum I was taught that the downward block was to continue it's motion into a large circular path leading to the hammer fist.

Eventually I learned to shorten the circle, and now I am pondering Eliptical Motion. If anyone hasn't played with this type of motion, I would definately suggest it. The Ellipse seemed to magnify the power that I was generating from torque, direcitonal harmony, and marriage of gravity. Certainly seemed as if I were able to better rebound off the opponent's leg, and EXPLODE through with the hammer. Something about it seemed to change the body mechanics.

Everywhere I plug this motion in I seem to get a similar response. Maybe it's just me.

Love to hear some opinions.

 

[Bode]

If you know where and how to look for it, the ellipse is potentially in all movements. Even a standard punch... at least if you want to get the most power out of it.
Thus, I have to say it's not just you Though I am sure Doc might have something to say about this.

 

[Seabrook]

Your right arm should stay in orbit after the downward block so that it immediately leads to the hammerfist. Of course, just before that hammerfist takes place, you should aim to get your right side kick in to the back of the opponent's leg before his right kicking leg hits the ground.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[kenposikh]

The problem I see here is the idea of new termnology, basically an ellipse is simply a flattened circle. I Think you would most probably find that with correct body mechanics a circle would be more effective than chanmging the totally natural orbit of the arm.

Just my thoughts

 

[KenpoEMT]

If you know where and how to look for it, the ellipse is potentially in all movements. Even a standard punch... at least if you want to get the most power out of it.
Thus, I have to say it's not just you Though I am sure Doc might have something to say about this.

Hey, thanks for the reply. Now that you mention it, the slightly curved motion could easily be considered a portion of an ellipse between two points. I've been noticing alot of motions are becoming slightly curved in their execution.
Man, I'd love to read what the good Doc has to say.

Your right arm should stay in orbit after the downward block so that it immediately leads to the hammerfist

You're saying not to rebound directly into the ellipse?

The problem I see here is the idea of new termnology, basically an ellipse is simply a flattened circle. I Think you would most probably find that with correct body mechanics a circle would be more effective than chanmging the totally natural orbit of the arm.

Not really sure it's a problem...The word 'ellipse' is accurate and requires less typing than the term 'flattened circle.'
An ellipse is still a part of natural movement, no? I'm not too sure that I'm correctly grasping your statement. It's coming across like, "you don't want to do a horizontal punch because a vertical punch is more in line with totally natural body mechanics." I'm not being hostile here; I would just like a little more clarification if you have the time and inclination to do so.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

American Kenpo is to "round off corners and elongate circles" not sure how many times I read that but basically it goes like this. You don't start a motion then stop it and start a new one. That takes too much time, you round the corner between actions to provide continuity of motion and thus use less time. However if you only use circles while maintaining your continuity of motion you'll also take a longer time than you would using an ellipse and you would not always be able to get an "angle of incident" on your strikes or blocks. In short, the Ellipse is absolutely to be favored in EPAK whenever possible and probable. Take a look at the universal patch in the infinite insights books or the video by Ed Parker on "sophisticated basics" notice that the "figure 8" used to block is two ellipses side by side not the standard two circles you usually see in a "figure 8."

Food for thought.

 

[Bode]

Hey, thanks for the reply. Now that you mention it, the slightly curved motion could easily be considered a portion of an ellipse between two points.

Exactly. A "Portion" of an ellipse is in all the movements I can think of. Considering that the shoulder is a ball and socket, then on a certain level there is "circular" or "elliptical" movement when we swing our arms.

The confusion, at least to me, between circular or elliptical arises because the term circular has been used for ages. "Kung Fu has a lot of circular movements." The term communicates the idea very well and thus, stuck... when in reality the movements are more elliptical or have a "circular component" to them. So, circular or elliptical are all the same to me.

Doc just demonstrated some very interesting concepts in class last night. Each one involved the circle/ellipse.

Now to throw one more at you. Have you ever heard the term "Circular Point of Origin?" Doc may have mentioned it before. I.E. point of origin does not have to be linear. More food for thought.

 

[KenpoEMT]

So, circular or elliptical are all the same to me.

Well, that makes sense. I always think in terms of Geometry, but when you put it that way I understand where you're coming from.

Doc just demonstrated some very interesting concepts in class last night. Each one involved the circle/ellipse.

*Geen with envy* Class with Doc, huh?

Now to throw one more at you. Have you ever heard the term "Circular Point of Origin?" Doc may have mentioned it before. I.E. point of origin does not have to be linear. More food for thought.

Wha....bbbu....I.....huh? Circular Point of Origin? Let me guess; you initiate a movement from (0,1) to (0,2) using an elliptical path to magnify power and deliver via hammer or thrust. I picture hammering motion as having a greater exaggeration to the elliptical path.
Now, Mr. Miyagi (humerous movie reference only, not mocking), correct my jumping crane kick of attempted mental motion.

 

[KenpoEMT]

American Kenpo is to "round off corners and elongate circles" not sure how many times I read that but basically it goes like this. You don't start a motion then stop it and start a new one. That takes too much time, you round the corner between actions to provide continuity of motion and thus use less time. However if you only use circles while maintaining your continuity of motion you'll also take a longer time than you would using an ellipse and you would not always be able to get an "angle of incident" on your strikes or blocks. In short, the Ellipse is absolutely to be favored in EPAK whenever possible and probable. Take a look at the universal patch in the infinite insights books or the video by Ed Parker on "sophisticated basics" notice that the "figure 8" used to block is two ellipses side by side not the standard two circles you usually see in a "figure 8."

This information I am very familiar with; however, it doesn't hurt at all to have it reiterated for clarity, particularly in this thread. I'd love to hear your take on methods of delivery via this elliptical mtion, specifically with reguard to kicking.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

The true difference between snapping and thrusting kicks is in the linear quality of their delivery. A true thrust kick chambers closer to the body and delivers it's power in as close to an elliptical path as possible. By comparison a snap kick is thrown from it's point-of-origin as has a decided more circular path to the target. The only reason that kicking cannot maintain it's continuity for extended tme periods is due to the nature of our legs being a base while standing. However, watch a competent Ju Jitsu practitioner doing 'guard work' with an 'open guard' and the ellipses versus circular paths and continuity of motion become apparent. And most Ju Jitsu sweeps are nothing but kicks from the ground set up differently. This is all taken from a Tae Kwon Do and Ju Jitsu perspective.

 

[KenpoEMT]

The true difference between snapping and thrusting kicks is in the linear quality of their delivery. A true thrust kick chambers closer to the body and delivers it's power in as close to an elliptical path as possible. By comparison a snap kick is thrown from it's point-of-origin as has a decided more circular path to the target. The only reason that kicking cannot maintain it's continuity for extended tme periods is due to the nature of our legs being a base while standing. However, watch a competent Ju Jitsu practitioner doing 'guard work' with an 'open guard' and the ellipses versus circular paths and continuity of motion become apparent. And most Ju Jitsu sweeps are nothing but kicks from the ground set up differently. This is all taken from a Tae Kwon Do and Ju Jitsu perspective.

I enjoy your perspective! I wish that I could comment on the Ju Jitsu perspective, but I have never trained in it.

What I've found with regard to kicking is that the initial mode of learning kicks (angular) gives way to a more natural method. The kicks now resemble exaggerated stomps. This method, I believe, is faster, more powerful, more fluid, and establishes a better form of foundation recovery then the angular method of kicking . I've begun to liken the visual aspect of this method of execution as being similar to a graph of a function. This has led me to begin viewing all aspects of motion as graphs. It is kind of strange, but I enjoy it!

Thanks for the good post!

 

[kenposikh]

Not really sure it's a problem...The word 'ellipse' is accurate and requires less typing than the term 'flattened circle.'
An ellipse is still a part of natural movement, no? I'm not too sure that I'm correctly grasping your statement. It's coming across like, "you don't want to do a horizontal punch because a vertical punch is more in line with totally natural body mechanics." I'm not being hostile here; I would just like a little more clarification if you have the time and inclination to do so.

I'm sorry sometime posts can be vague and I'nm not a terribly good writer.I do not have a problem with the use of the word ellipse etc etc or your original post, I think I was going off tangent because so many times I see Kenpoists getting bogged down in terminology for terminologies sake. I understand that this is not the case in your original post and I apologise if I came across implying that.

Anyway back to the point Mr Parker I think said it when he said to round of corners. The elliptical path occurs in many things that you do where the arm and elbow are concerned. I think that the effect you are finding is that of a change in timing of your strike take for example a swinging arm where the elbow is kept locked out and strike soehting with a hammerfist sa a pad now doing the same motion with the same speed but this time allowing the elbow to bend will produce an elliptical motion of the hammerfist but still a ciruclar motion of the shoulder.

Now take another factor into our test the pad itself if when you strike you are striking down at 90 degrees to the pad i.e. the pad is held horizontally you will have one effect of the elliptical path now get someone to hold the pad at a 45 degree angle and do the same strike you should find that more power is now available to you, I think.

Yours in Kenpo

Amrik

 

[jonah2]

...Anyway back to the point Mr Parker I think said it when he said to round of corners. The elliptical path occurs in many things that you do where the arm and elbow are concerned. I think that the effect you are finding is that of a change in timing of your strike take for example a swinging arm where the elbow is kept locked out and strike soehting with a hammerfist sa a pad now doing the same motion with the same speed but this time allowing the elbow to bend will produce an elliptical motion of the hammerfist but still a ciruclar motion of the shoulder...

Amrik,

We are probably within shouting distance of each other but converse over a global network – communication gone crazy eh!



I think a lot of this ‘path of motion’ conversation gets confused some times because we tend to look at things differently to one another (people in general that is).

All paths of motion are available to the body at different parts and junctions, be it linear, circular, elliptical, orbital etc etc. I look at it as two specific motions, that I refer to in my mind as initial or primary motion and resultant or secondary motion. The initial motion could be a combination of all the above at joints and muscles etc but the resultant motion is the one we should be concentrating on - ie the path taken by the weapon of choice.

In response to your ‘another factor’ test. The path of the weapon (fist), at the point of impact is perpendicular to the target (pad) and therefore the maximum power transference can occur. The same power generation can obviously be made in both operations of the swing (pad at 90 or 45) but the transference of that power is different depending on the angle on incidence.

Kind regards,

Jonah

 

[KenpoEMT]

Here's something I find interesting:

The Vertical Line test. If a kick can be viewed as a graph of a function (where kick is a function of motion), then we can use the vertical line test to determine wasted motion. If at any point during the execution of the kick the vertical line crosses 2 points, then the kick contains wasted motion. The kick is not a proper function of motion. I thought that was pretty kewl.

 

[Bode]

Circular Point of Origin? Let me guess; you initiate a movement from (0,1) to (0,2) using an elliptical path to magnify power and deliver via hammer or thrust. I picture hammering motion as having a greater exaggeration to the elliptical path.

Correct. But the hammering motion does not necessarily get all of it's power from the elliptical path. The elliptical path, in regards to a hammer strike, does a number of things. One of which is adding power. The second, and most important... it increases structural integrity. Of course, one must know the mechanisms to utilize to add the structural integrity, but a major component of it, as I see it, is elliptical/circular. That's just how the body works.

In addition, the movement of a hammer does not necessarily have a very pronounced elliptical path. The skill of the person delivering the hammer will determine how much of an ellipse is needed to gain maximum power and structural integrity. For instance, in my movement you might see the elliptical path, but not necessarily in Doc's or some of the highest ranking black belts.

I've begun to liken the visual aspect of this method of execution as being similar to a graph of a function.

Graph as a function of what? Time? Power? or Movement in a 3D space?

 

[Blindside]

Here's something I find interesting:

The Vertical Line test. If a kick can be viewed as a graph of a function (where kick is a function of motion), then we can use the vertical line test to determine wasted motion. If at any point during the execution of the kick the vertical line crosses 2 points, then the kick contains wasted motion. The kick is not a proper function of motion. I thought that was pretty kewl.

Please give an example of this, I don't think I understand what you are saying.

Lamont

 

[dubljay]

Please give an example of this, I don't think I understand what you are saying.

Lamont

I think I know what he's getting at.

If you were to take the path the kick travels and place it onto a 2d graph, the x y plane. By using a verticle line along the graph (or the path of motion of the kick) anywhere the verticle line touches the path of the kick twice, that is supposed to be wasted motion.

In order for me to believe this I am going to need more specific information. Is the path of the kick measured at the striking surface, or the entire leg? How do you account for the fact that no kick is ever on just one plane (i.e. being completely verticle or horizontal).

Also if this is true for kicks, is it true for all strikes?

:idunno:

-Josh

 

[KenpoEMT]

Correct. But the hammering motion does not necessarily get all of it's power from the elliptical path. The elliptical path, in regards to a hammer strike, does a number of things. One of which is adding power. The second, and most important... it increases structural integrity. Of course, one must know the mechanisms to utilize to add the structural integrity, but a major component of it, as I see it, is elliptical/circular. That's just how the body works.

In addition, the movement of a hammer does not necessarily have a very pronounced elliptical path. The skill of the person delivering the hammer will determine how much of an ellipse is needed to gain maximum power and structural integrity. For instance, in my movement you might see the elliptical path, but not necessarily in Doc's or some of the highest ranking black belts.

Awesome post!
I was wondering if you would be willing to expound a little about the structural integrity portion of your post.

Please give an example of this, I don't think I understand what you are saying.

Sorry about that. I was in a rush to get out the door when I posted the information.

I was likening the natural movement of the human body to an Algebraic Function. I want to be clear in saying that College Algebra is by no means my strongest area of knowledge; I welcome any correction, comment, and/or clarification on this idea.

I am going to assume that you have a working knowledge of Algebra, and if you don't, then please, dear God please, do not think that I am talking down to anyone. It is just an area of Kenpo/Mathematics that intrigues me. I am by no means an expert.

The basic idea of a function is that each value of Y [f(x)] can have only one value of X [(x)]. Think of Motion as being the X-axis, and think of any human movement as being the Y-axis. In a function, you can check the formula by substituting any value into f(x) to determine if it is a function.
[This is where things become a little difficult. Relating real motion to actual functions.]
The formula I picture graphs as a parabola. In our Motion, from point to point [say points (-5,0), (-3,3), (0,4), (3,3), (5,0)] we can have no duplicate motion. If you graph this, it will form a portion of an ellipse. Point of Orgin remember. The Vertical Line Test comes into play now. If during our movement we have caused f(x) to have more than one value of (x), then we discover the point(s) that contains wasted motion.

Each new motion is a new Function. Each new motion/purpose can be exaluated on these terms.

Hope I didn't sound too 'egg-headish'. This really is fascinating stuff, and a good instructor with years of experience intuitively knows the applications of what I am talking about without needing this kind of comparison.

Love to hear some opinions.

 

[dubljay]

Awesome post!
1) I was wondering if you would be willing to expound a little about the structural integrity portion of your post.

Sorry about that. I was in a rush to get out the door when I posted the information.

I was likening the natural movement of the human body to an Algebraic Function. I want to be clear in saying that College Algebra is by no means my strongest area of knowledge; I welcome any correction, comment, and/or clarification on this idea.

I am going to assume that you have a working knowledge of Algebra, and if you don't, then please, dear God please, do not think that I am talking down to anyone. It is just an area of Kenpo/Mathematics that intrigues me. I am by no means an expert.

The basic idea of a function is that each value of Y [f(x)] can have only one value of X [(x)].

2) Think of Motion as being the X-axis, and think of any human movement as being the Y-axis. In a function, you can check the formula by substituting any value into f(x) to determine if it is a function.
[This is where things become a little difficult. Relating real motion to actual functions.]
The formula I picture graphs as a parabola. In our Motion, from point to point [say points (-5,0), (-3,3), (0,4), (3,3), (5,0)] we can have no duplicate motion. If you graph this, it will form a portion of an ellipse. Point of Orgin remember. The Vertical Line Test comes into play now. If during our movement we have caused f(x) to have more than one value of (x), then we discover the point(s) that contains wasted motion.

Each new motion is a new Function. Each new motion/purpose can be exaluated on these terms.

Hope I didn't sound too 'egg-headish'. This really is fascinating stuff, and a good instructor with years of experience intuitively knows the applications of what I am talking about without needing this kind of comparison.

Love to hear some opinions.

1) You can find out a lot of this stuff by searching for Sub Level 4. Also read the lineage section for Mr. Chapel ('Doc') on Kenpo Talk.

2) The statement of "motion on the x axis and any human motion on the y axis" doenst make sense. Are you actually assigning equations to motion and human motion? What is the difference between the two? I understand the vertical line test (after being in Calc II I have a basic idea of algebra ).


If you are talking about the path the kick takes and putting it on a graph (as in x represents inches on the horizontal plane from the point of origin, and y represents inches on the vertical) then I don't think the vertical line test is valid what so ever, unless you are stopping the graph when the kick reaches the target, discounting the path back to the ground (either back to initial position or planting into a new stance).


:idunno: I don't really follow

-Josh

 

[KenpoEMT]

If you were to take the path the kick travels and place it onto a 2d graph, the x y plane. By using a verticle line along the graph (or the path of motion of the kick) anywhere the verticle line touches the path of the kick twice, that is supposed to be wasted motion.

Ah, you must've posted while I was writing my response :ultracool .
Well, I think you explained what I meant a little better than I did.

In order for me to believe this I am going to need more specific information. Is the path of the kick measured at the striking surface, or the entire leg? How do you account for the fact that no kick is ever on just one plane (i.e. being completely verticle or horizontal).

Also if this is true for kicks, is it true for all strikes?

I was talking about how the actual striking surface itself moves through space.
As far as accounting for the fact that we are multi-dimensional beings whose movements are being compared to 2-dimensional graphs...Well, I think we can adjust our perspective of any motion in order to evaluate it in this manner. The ground does not have to be considered the X-axis for the purposes of evaluating kicks that originate from the middle of a step/rebound/whatever-else.

I am absolutely certain that all strikes can be evaluated in this manner. Again, merely establish a constant plane to evaluate a given movement.