Flashy, Stylized and Useless

[Steve]

Serious question: when you don't have a training partner handy, do you still train? If so, how? What do you work on?

Good question and the answer is yes. There are solo drills and body weight exercises that also teach muscle memory. But honestly, the best way to learn to grapple is to grapple. Outside of class, even working solo drills, the primary goal is going to be conditioning.

Speaking of disappointing; childishness insults and name calling are so unbecoming but they seem to be becoming the norm around MT these days.

If you can honestly call your behavior other than a childish tantrum, I'll admit to an ad hominem. But in order for a label to be libelous, it has to first be untrue.

 

[Flying Crane]

Good question and the answer is yes. There are solo drills and body weight exercises that also teach muscle memory. But honestly, the best way to learn to grapple is to grapple. Outside of class, even working solo drills, the primary goal is going to be conditioning.

I understand that the best way to learn grappling is to grapple, but there can be times when a partner is not available.

Are you saying that you essentially do not train solo, with the exeption of conditioning or strengthening exercises?

 

[Steve]

I understand that the best way to learn grappling is to grapple, but there can be times when a partner is not available.

Are you saying that you essentially do not train solo, with the exeption of conditioning or strengthening exercises?

Not quite. I said that there are solo drills. But that they are a poor substitute for more than sport/activity specific conditioning. They're important, particularly as a warmup, but aren't going to help you in a technical sense. Take the shrimping drill, done in probably every BJJ school in the world. As I said earlier, they're great for a warmup but really only teach you the basic motion. In order to actually hip escape under pressure, no amount of shrimping down the mat will help.

It's as I said before, a learning model I personally like lists 4 stages of adult learning: knowledge -> comprehension -> application -> synthesis. Kata, like a solo drill such as the hip escape drill, is really only good for teaching to a knowledge level... the most rudimentary understanding. Better than nothing? I'd argue that, beyond some conditioning benefit, probably not.

Does that make sense?

Edit to add: Just to be clear. This is just my opinion.

 

[Archangel M]

IMO...a good western boxer will kick the *** of most "solo"/kata/1-step sparring/"semi-contact" sparring practitioner.

 

[Carol]

However, even boxers shadowbox.

 

[jarrod]

This is such a foreign idea to me. How is kata like learning to play the guitar? It would seem to me that it would be like learning to play the trumpet without a mouthpiece, or guitar by just fingering the notes without strumming the strings.

as with most things, it's relative to taste. i've played guitar for around 20 years now, & i can count on two hands the number of other people's songs i can play. for me guitar is more about self expression than replication, & i take the same approach i take to martial arts. you can learn a lot from learning other people's songs, but it's not absolutely necessary.

jf

 

[jarrod]

boxer's get brought up a lot as an example of efficient training (i've used the example myself). yet not all boxing training methods are efficient. for instance, i've boxed for years & i loath working the speed bag. i can barely move the thing & find it dull, & unrelated to actual boxing. sure, it helps your timing, but it is not the most efficient way to train.

the only difference is that speed bag training isn't wrapped up in tradition. if someone really, really loves training the speed bag to the extent that it gets them training more, more power to them. but it's not essential. same with kata. if you dig it & interests you enough to train more than you would otherwise, cool. if you don't want to do it, cool. IT IS JUST A TRAINING TOOL, USE IT AS YOU SEE FIT.

jf

 

[Carol]

This is such a foreign idea to me. How is kata like learning to play the guitar? It would seem to me that it would be like learning to play the trumpet without a mouthpiece, or guitar by just fingering the notes without strumming the strings.

That is precisely what goes in to guitar pedagogy. Novitiate guitarists are encouraged to just try fretting basic cords in order to build callouses up on their fingers. As the guitarists progress, part of practice is fingering through transitions to get a feel for the exchange. (Guitar playing invokes a lot of muscle memory, also). A more advanced guitarist will do speed drills one hand at a time (working the fretting hand without picking, working the picking hand without fretting) then work both hands together.

My professors at Berklee always insisted that we get a Gripmaster to carry with us when we were out and about or otherwise away from our guitar. Note the fingers can be squeezed independently of one another. We could simply squeeze it like a squeeze ball...but that wasn't accomplishing anything musical. By manipulating certain sequences with the Gripmaster, that forced us to focus our mind on our "music" and the mechanics needed to perform the notes. Our profs generally didn't have to tell us twice...we all saw the value in it. Plus it was a good way to stave off the withdrawl symptoms...

 

[Omar B]

Carol! I didn't know you went to Berklee, many of my great friends went there! Heck, Joe Stump's a great old friend of mine too!

Oh, and yes, just like working out gives you a high so does playing guitar and like Carol, I go through withdrawals.

 

[Carol]

Yup I did! Actually graduated too

I haven't seen Joe Stump in awhile. One of my fave guitarists, and a damn good guy to boot.

 

[tallgeese]

Ok, this has gone on long enough now that I don't remember exactly where the stuff I was going to pull quotes was....

Well, it's the old fashioned way.

First up, someone made the comment about the unrealistic attack sequences I mentioned earlier and wondered what examples I could give. That's easy. Walk into any karate school in the US and you'll probably see people repping stuff off of a step thru reverse punch. One that is usually chambered at the hip and telegraphed from it's inception. That's the easiest and classic example in my mind.

Now, should we beat on white belts till they can slip full on strikes from experienced hitters? Of course not, but starting their training from a more realistic look will shave time off from learning to actual implementation. It will probably build less bad habits as well.

As to kata, I agree with some others, if it's your thing it is a solo training tool. However, there are better ways to get things repped. Drilling resistance against a heavy bag and shadow boxing are great. The also have the advantage of not being pre-arranged. This starts the mind to thinking in a fluid state. One much more akin to actual fight progression than static form.

But to the flashiness, I just don't see that in MT and other contact varities of training. There is a gulf of difference between a full tilt shin to the head (which still isn't in my inventory by the way) and a multi-turn flying kick prevalent in some arts. Not to mention that a bulk of MT training a tactics you see in fights is short and brutal.

As to the overcomplexity statment I made ealier, I was asked about what this was in reference to. Well, again, look at just about any US karate school and check out the way a typical block is thrown. The thing is chambered away from the line of attack, arms are crossed as the actual arm moves into position, and much precision is put into the arm bend, fist placement, ect. All this to not get hit in the head. It's needlessly complex.

Again, it's just my thoughts, eveyone is entitled to their own.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Put it this way. There are four basic levels of understanding: knowledge, comprehension, application and synthesis.

I think that is more true of 'head' knowledge than 'body' knowledge. Muscle memory is trained at a less than conscious level, and correct repetition brings rewards.

The goal in any adult learning situation is to bring the person to the application level as quickly as possible (synthesis is brought about through experience in application).

That may be where we branch off. I am in no hurry. I did not begin training at an Isshinryu dojo to learn self-defense, per se. That's simply a benefit. Even our sensei has said, if you're in a hurry to learn to defend yourself, take up boxing.

The only exception to this is in situations where the learning process itself is the goal... and there's nothing wrong with that. If the pursuit of master is more important than acheiving master, then lingering at the knowledge level is totally cool. Or said another way, if kata itself is important for its own sake, then mastering kata becomes a learning goal in and of itself.

I am not interested in mastering kata to say I have mastered kata. I am interested in kata for what I perceive as its core value, teaching proper body mechanics and muscle memory.

Once again, I'm not anti-kata. I simply think that there are more efficient ways to learn technique. An experienced practitioner would, and once again, would be offering correction in context. If you have any doubt about this, sit near the edge of the mat at a BJJ or wrestling tournament. You'll hear very specific instruction being offered that is timely and in context. And I'm sure you'll benefit from it.

I have and I do, but again - a correction on foot position in a kumite, shouted from the sidelines, is hardly conducive to creating body mechanics and muscle memory that makes it ingrained.

I am naturally splay-footed. That is not an efficient way to stand while punching in most cases. I have found that while sparring, I go right into that 'bad' stance. Sure, sensei yells for me to correct my feet - and I get jacked while I'm trying to think about fixing my feet. In kata, kata, kata, he corrects me, I practice correct foot position, and little by little, my body begins to respond. I look down at the end of a sequence and by God, my feet are right - and I didn't think about it.

I think this addresses clfsean and Xue Sheng's points, as well. If not, let me know and I'll try to be more specific.

Anyway, back on topic - I don't know of anything particularly flashy or useless about what I'm being taught. And I'm content to learn it the way sensei teaches it. I do not understand what the value would be of a newbie like me trying to re-think what has been cleary well-designed and refined over a long period of time by people who know a lot more about it than I do.

I am also patient, even as a beginner at age 48. What's the rush? All things in time.

 

[MJS]

I agree that part of self-defense training is actually using the techniques, by sparring or otherwise exchanging techniques, both attacking and defending. But kata is just working that response system into your body so that it becomes a natural and instinctive move. A middle body block when practiced as kata, for example, can be examined, judged, and corrected, so that you do it correctly each and every time (eventually). In a series of self-defense moves, I wonder if an instructor would pick out that your feet were wrong, or your wrist bent, etc.

Eh, we're getting back to kata and how useful it is again. I'm just a newbie with much to learn, but I do kata, kata, kata, and I will continue to do kata, kata, kata. I believe in it.

Not to sidetrack this thread on to a kata debate...God knows there are enough of those threads around here, but I wanted to comment on what was said. For me, I think that there is alot of useful things in kata. The #1 problem that I have seen during my training time, is that there are many teachers who dont know what is contained in the kata. So if they dont know, they certainly cant expect the student to know either.

So the end result is you have a bunch of people running around, not knowing what they're doing, other than a series of preset moves, and then you have those that don't do kata in their art, who see this, and say that its useless.

Kata does have alot in it, but it all comes down to how its trained, and how its explained.

 

[MJS]

IMO...a good western boxer will kick the *** of most "solo"/kata/1-step sparring/"semi-contact" sparring practitioner.

However, even boxers shadowbox.

However, boxers will also get into the ring and spar, with contact. Now, I'm the first one to say that while I like kata, and think it has benefits, I also feel that its not the end all, be all of training either. I still maintain that you need to expand outside of the kata box, get into the ring and spar with some hard contact, as well as do some random, spontaneous self defense drills, to further enhance the package.

There was a time during our class, that we'd have people run thru a kata with others attacking. Now, this wasn't always an easy task, due to the fact that it was a slow process, meaning if there weren't enough people, you always had to stop and re-position the attackers. However, this still gave the student a feel for how the kata was designed.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The #1 problem that I have seen during my training time, is that there are many teachers who dont know what is contained in the kata. So if they dont know, they certainly cant expect the student to know either.

Good point. I guess I've been lucky. My sensei clearly understands and explains the bunkai, and we practice the 'back side' of the kata as well, so one person performs the kata and one/several attackers provide the input in the form of punches, kicks, and blocks. If your kata cannot do what it is supposed to do, either the kata is useless or you're not doing it right. So far, if I fail to block a kick or parry a punch, it's been the latter for me.

 

[MJS]

Good point. I guess I've been lucky. My sensei clearly understands and explains the bunkai, and we practice the 'back side' of the kata as well, so one person performs the kata and one/several attackers provide the input in the form of punches, kicks, and blocks. If your kata cannot do what it is supposed to do, either the kata is useless or you're not doing it right. So far, if I fail to block a kick or parry a punch, it's been the latter for me.

My first instructor really had no clue about what was in the kata. I'd ask, and get, "Well, its done this way because.....................................................................................................well, because thats the way its done." Doesnt sound like a good answer to me. Fortunately, as training went on, I came across teachers who did give examples, and explain to me how to look for my own interpretation of the moves.

Keep training hard. Sounds like you're on the right path.

 

[punisher73]

It all boils down to what YOU like to do in your training. If you have a good instructor and you can see "why" you are doing what you're doing and find value in it then keep on doing it. If you don't like that approach to training, then find one that does fit your personality and training goals.

Everyone has a different build and personality and mental approach to what they want, that is why we have so many arts.

 

[punisher73]

Ok, this has gone on long enough now that I don't remember exactly where the stuff I was going to pull quotes was....

Well, it's the old fashioned way.

First up, someone made the comment about the unrealistic attack sequences I mentioned earlier and wondered what examples I could give. That's easy. Walk into any karate school in the US and you'll probably see people repping stuff off of a step thru reverse punch. One that is usually chambered at the hip and telegraphed from it's inception. That's the easiest and classic example in my mind.

Now, should we beat on white belts till they can slip full on strikes from experienced hitters? Of course not, but starting their training from a more realistic look will shave time off from learning to actual implementation. It will probably build less bad habits as well.

Misunderstanding training methods does not make them useless. Also, understand the context of what TMA's are designed for from it's beginning stages. It isn't for a squared off sporting competition it is designed as a civilian self-defense (it was not designed for soldiers/law enforcement so it has a different goal in mind) to hurt your attacker and get away quickly and safely. Do you know why the hand is pulled back to the hip? You are grabbing onto your opponent and pulling him into your punch. Boxers chamber their punches also based on the context it was designed for, karate chambers in different areas depending on the usage as well.

As to kata, I agree with some others, if it's your thing it is a solo training tool. However, there are better ways to get things repped. Drilling resistance against a heavy bag and shadow boxing are great. The also have the advantage of not being pre-arranged. This starts the mind to thinking in a fluid state. One much more akin to actual fight progression than static form.

Again misunderstanding the use and place of kata. Karate uses and originally used bags and makiwara to drill techniques during solo practice. Also kumite drills and partner exercises were always used. Kata is a textbook that you pull out combos to work on and learn principles and concepts to learn more applications and to be more spontaneous.

But to the flashiness, I just don't see that in MT and other contact varities of training. There is a gulf of difference between a full tilt shin to the head (which still isn't in my inventory by the way) and a multi-turn flying kick prevalent in some arts. Not to mention that a bulk of MT training a tactics you see in fights is short and brutal.

As to the overcomplexity statment I made ealier, I was asked about what this was in reference to. Well, again, look at just about any US karate school and check out the way a typical block is thrown. The thing is chambered away from the line of attack, arms are crossed as the actual arm moves into position, and much precision is put into the arm bend, fist placement, ect. All this to not get hit in the head. It's needlessly complex.

Again, it's just my thoughts, eveyone is entitled to their own.

Once more you misunderstand what it is teaching. It is teaching multiple things. The "arm crossing" is a parry built into the training process so you are getting two techniques for one training idea. The "drawing back" part again teaches two different things. It is teaching you to use that motion as a strike to destroy the opponent's limb after we have parried it or grabbed on to an extended limb. It also teaches a specific path to block off a certain area of the body and divert the strike. You learn the full motion using the whole body to be able to use only part of the motion when needed and still have proper body mechanics behind it. Other evasion skills are also taught and shown in kata for the student to practice with a partner.

 

[Omar B]

Yup I did! Actually graduated too
I haven't seen Joe Stump in awhile. One of my fave guitarists, and a damn good guy to boot.

Awesome! I was accepted to Berklee but went to Queens College instead because it was cheaper, closer to home and my focus was not music at the time. Joe's a great friend of mine, he has helped my magazine career quite a bit and helped my playing quite a bit. Not just by stealing from the records, but by his sending me these huge packages of handwritten sheet music.

Back to the thread. Some may think the martial arts are too formalized, but really, how much of that is based on reality. As I said before, a person once observing our class asked how come we didnt do any flipping around. People's perseption of what the martial arts are about take their cues from TV (sad, I know, but most people don't read). Even those who practis an art like MT, Boxing, Wrestling may think that because where they work out seem less formalized. Or they say the movments look too flashy and could never work without having any experience of how to apply that move correctly from the experience they have had in their art.

 

[Steve]

boxer's get brought up a lot as an example of efficient training (i've used the example myself). yet not all boxing training methods are efficient. for instance, i've boxed for years & i loath working the speed bag. i can barely move the thing & find it dull, & unrelated to actual boxing. sure, it helps your timing, but it is not the most efficient way to train.

the only difference is that speed bag training isn't wrapped up in tradition. if someone really, really loves training the speed bag to the extent that it gets them training more, more power to them. but it's not essential. same with kata. if you dig it & interests you enough to train more than you would otherwise, cool. if you don't want to do it, cool. IT IS JUST A TRAINING TOOL, USE IT AS YOU SEE FIT.

jf

Once again, and I hate to sound like a broken record, but any of these activities remain useful as conditioning tools. The mistake, IMO, is in trying to make them more than they are. Kata is, IMO, a simple conditioning tool that some have elevated out of proportion to any potential gain. The difference between a speed bag workout and kata is that no one claims to be learning any deeper or more technical understanding of the lexicon of boxing by working the speed bag. The same can't be said for kata.

I think that is more true of 'head' knowledge than 'body' knowledge. Muscle memory is trained at a less than conscious level, and correct repetition brings rewards.

I personally disagree. This is simply how we learn. Cooking. You can read cook books and watch cooking shows to get to a knowledge level. Comprehension begins by cooking from recipes. Application begins when you start modifying the recipes and perfecting the ones you really enjoy. Synthesis is a mastery level.

You can apply these four categories very simply to any learning situation, and it's almost always very clear because this is just fundamentally how we learn. It's so helpful precisely because it focuses on taking information from a cerebral/conceptual level to a concrete/practical level. So often, as adult learners, any training we receive is academic and not practical, spending more time on "why" and "when" to do something and less on "how" and "what" to actually do.

That may be where we branch off. I am in no hurry. I did not begin training at an Isshinryu dojo to learn self-defense, per se. That's simply a benefit. Even our sensei has said, if you're in a hurry to learn to defend yourself, take up boxing.

This places an emphasis on the process, which, if it's your thing, great. Sort of like the friend who writes bad poetry. I have a friend who loves to write poetry. Even she will admit that it's bad, but she has no interest in trying to improve... that's not why she writes. I can respect it, even if I can't exactly understand it.

I am not interested in mastering kata to say I have mastered kata. I am interested in kata for what I perceive as its core value, teaching proper body mechanics and muscle memory.

And this brings us back to full circle. If you are in it for the process, great. If you are in it for results, then focusing on the process is a mistake, and one that many adult learners make.

I have and I do, but again - a correction on foot position in a kumite, shouted from the sidelines, is hardly conducive to creating body mechanics and muscle memory that makes it ingrained.

I disagree completely. Timely feedback in context is THE BEST way to create proper body mechanics and muscle memory. As I said before, I can shrimp down the mats all day long and am only conditioning my body. When I hip out correct and reestablish guard in the context of actual resistance, I'm actually learning body mechanics and muscle memory.

I am naturally splay-footed. That is not an efficient way to stand while punching in most cases. I have found that while sparring, I go right into that 'bad' stance. Sure, sensei yells for me to correct my feet - and I get jacked while I'm trying to think about fixing my feet. In kata, kata, kata, he corrects me, I practice correct foot position, and little by little, my body begins to respond. I look down at the end of a sequence and by God, my feet are right - and I didn't think about it.

Kata will help you condition your body. Sparring will help you fix your stance under pressure. Your stance goes to hell because you let it go during sparring. It seems clear to me that you need to spar more and focus on fixing your stance. Getting jacked is feedback, saying to you, "Your feet might be right, but you also have to keep your hands up." Kata isn't teaching you the technique. It's conditioning the muscles. Sparring is where you're learning the technique and that you continue to do it incorrectly during sparring is a good indication that, regardless of where your feet are at the end of a kata, your body still doesn't understand the technique.

Just in general, this applies to all of the guitar analogies, as well. Conditioning is critical. I appreciate and agree with that.