Five year old is a first dan black belt...

[ATC]

Yep always been proud of her lol! Watching your kids fight full contact though is not enjoyable., I'd rather fight myself.
We train full contact and due to my job I get 'involved' a fair bit in fights, I've had punches thrown at me by big guys though funnily enough it's the little ones that are most punchy ( little man syndrome!) and I certainly can take a punch, my teeth will attest to that, though I've been KO'd in the club a couple of times, a punch to the face is okay it's the liver shots I hate though am fond of giving them lol! Taking the first one, standing there afterwards certainly does make the attacker think, oops hit the wrongg one. Again in the course of my work I've had to take someone down, we do take them down, not stand and trade punches.
2nd Dans I know are all in their late thirties, I don't know of any in their twenties.
Our SD is very robust, our instructor is also a close protection officer and doorman as well as having been in the army for over twenty years. He's trained with the best in SD such as Geoff Thompson. The MMA is a separate part of our training but the two complement each other very well, our TSD is probably also more robust than many, gums shields, groin guards and MMA gloves (thats our personal choice) are the only protection and sparring again is full contact.
It's not so much the rank as their age, they are too young for their rank, they can't possibly have the years of experience they should have for their grade. We spend years at one dan grade just learning and gaining experience, no one should be third at 20. If you chaps are going for 2nd but haven't spent a few years at first they won't have much experience, it's just another grading isn't it.

I think they have all spent at least 3 years at 1st. That seems to be on par with most places. I have seen some faster but these guys have been at this place for about 10 years total, maybe since 12 and the other 15. They are young so they are fast and are pretty good technique wise but like many I see, they tend to break down when you take the saftey off. When there is no one to say stop an it is not controlled. Most kids that come up in a studio...uhmmm gym

, tend to have never been in a real fight now days. So when you come at them unstructured they freeze a bit or seem lost. I see this a lot and not just in my dojang. It may be that many of todays (where I am located now) youth that take up MA tend to be better off economicly and don't come from those tuff places like I did when I was young. Just my observation.

I know that even my own kids have never been in a real fight. Heck, by the time I was there age I had enough playground fights to be considered a PRO. They have not had a single fight. My son was once punched in the face but just went to the teach like he was taught to.

 

[Gorilla]

Wow 5...I thought that only TKD did this...five is very young I would like to see her fight and see how she does...Five seems very young...Seems like this issue is a problem in many martial arts

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This was a while back and not a sports school at all. We would spar with only the foam feet and hands. Shin guards if you wanted them, and head gear. It was more like kick boxing of old that we were doing. I did not just throw one punch but pretty much bum rushed her and had her backing up. When I did land the punch it was with bad intentions as i was a teenaged boy being embarrased. I would say I was 18 maybe 19. I had just gotten back into the MA after some time off.

She was good in the sense that she could was fast, could hit what she wanted to and her techniques were solid. But she lacked any power to hurt me. It was more of a bother or irritant to get hit by her. I most likely weight about 160 back then and she could not have been no more than 125 maybe 130. She was maybe 5'8" pretty tall, but I am 6'2".

My point was that even though she was more skilled than me she still could not handle brute force. My will was stronger and because I was stronger these two things out classed her skill and training. Just because someone trains and they can be very good, man or woman, If someone has stronger will and is stronger and can withstand anything that they can give out they will physiclly beat them.

That is why there are weight classes from boxing to wrestleing, and sure don't mix women and men.

I do not think that there was anything she could do short of getting lucky with a groin shot or eye gouge. Even a 120 pound man will hit with more force and speed than a 120 pound woman. The two bodies are not built the same or for the same things.

Kickboxing = sport.
Weight classes = sport.
A girl who was fast and could hit but could not hit hard enough to be more than an irritant does not a third dan make.
A girl who cannot defend against a bums rush does not a thrid dan make.

And the weight should not have prevented her from hitting you hard enough to hurt you. I outweigh Floyd Mayweather by a substantial amount, probably more than you outweighed her. Somehow, I do not think that he would be deterred. Master Lee at our school weighs 135 and hits hard enough for me to really feel it through the hogu. I weigh 202. That is a much greater difference than 130 to 160. In fact, at 6'2, 160 is rather light.

I real life, the predator picks out victims who are smaller and weaker. Do not put a third dan on someone who can only point fight. And if she could not do more than irritate you because you a bit bigger, then point fighting is all that she is capable of. That is not a third dan.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Kickboxing = sport.
Weight classes = sport.
A girl who was fast and could hit but could not hit hard enough to be more than an irritant does not a third dan make.
A girl who cannot defend against a bums rush does not a thrid dan make.

And the weight should not have prevented her from hitting you hard enough to hurt you. I outweigh Floyd Mayweather by a substantial amount, probably more than you outweighed her. Somehow, I do not think that he would be deterred. Master Lee at our school weighs 135 and hits hard enough for me to really feel it through the hogu. I weigh 202. That is a much greater difference than 130 to 160. In fact, at 6'2, 160 is rather light.

I real life, the predator picks out victims who are smaller and weaker. Do not put a third dan on someone who can only point fight. And if she could not do more than irritate you because you a bit bigger, then point fighting is all that she is capable of. That is not a third dan.

Daniel

Yep all you said was true but one difference. A woman at 130 is not the same as a man at 130. If both train to their physical best a 130 lb man will hit much, much harder than any 130 lb woman. Every time.

Master Suh is also about 137 and I now weigh in the 210 range (160 was in my teen years) and he has broken my ribs, and arm. However his sister who is older than him and maybe in the 120 range, and has been training just as long if not longer than him can not hurt me. In fact over my 30+ years of training no women has hit me hard enough to hurt me. But I have been drop many times from other men in both the dojo and dojang.

Now there are some women that give a good pop but none as hard as any man. Women just don't have the muscle density. Even though kickboxing, boxing and the other that you mentioned are sports, the people doing them still are punching and kicking you.

Also it is sad to say that there are quite a few 3rd Dans in the world, women and men that could not defend someone bigger and stronger than them by being bum rushed. There are many people out in the world that can just plain fight. I did not need any MA to help me fight better I just thought it was cool and one I started I continued to like it.

Yes you would like and hope that any 3rd Dan could handle him/herself but that won't always be the case no matter how high their standard were for getting that rank.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I appreciate the response, ATC.

This where there is a fundemental difference between the modern and the traditional views of rank.

By third dan, there should not be a need for size, weight, age, or gender based excuses. How about kicks? Women have greater muscle density in the legs than men of comparable height, and by third dan, she should have been able to kick like a freight train. Also, by third dan, she should have been able to punch competently and at least block and/or parry. At the very least, she should have been able to get out of the way.

If you can only defend yourself against another person of your own size, weight, and gender by third dan, then congratulations: you just got a third dan in point fighting and pretty forms. Nothing more.

By third dan, you should be able to fight and handle yourself. Against anyone. Not beat anyone, but handle yourself. She could not. If one hit balls you up and takes you out, then not only have you not handled yourself, you are now dead should the hit occur at the hands of an attacker outside of the dojo. There are no weight classes outside of competition and the average woman is more likely to be attacked by someone who is both a man and likely heavier than she is.

From first to fourth dan, amongst adults from their prime into near middle age, is mostly about execution of technique. Fifth is a master and should be not only about execution, but about teaching ability, depth of knowledge, and maturity. It is not until sixth and above that the emphasis shifts away from the ability to fight and execute your techniques to effectively defend yourself.

And at twenty years of age, barring some physical disability, there is absolutely no reason for a third dan to have lousy punches in a karate based art.

Needless to say, my opinion about what it takes to be third dan is such that I do not see it as appropriate for young children.

Daniel

 

[shinbushi]

Wow 5...I thought that only TKD did this...five is very young I would like to see her fight and see how she does...Five seems very young...Seems like this issue is a problem in many martial arts

In Thailand for Muay Thai Kids start fighting professionally around 6. Full contact Muay Thai rules

 

[suicide]

yeah muay thai kids are lethal !

hey a 5 your old bb is better than a 5 year old ninja :yoda:

 

[ATC]

I appreciate the response, ATC.

This where there is a fundemental difference between the modern and the traditional views of rank.

By third dan, there should not be a need for size, weight, age, or gender based excuses. How about kicks? Women have greater muscle density in the legs than men of comparable height, and by third dan, she should have been able to kick like a freight train. Also, by third dan, she should have been able to punch competently and at least block and/or parry. At the very least, she should have been able to get out of the way...

I just don't think that there are any absolutes in life. You can only tip the odds a bit but you cannot make them absolute, and to me you point seem more like an absolute. There are no guarantees about anything let alone there being a fact or absolute truth in saying that a 3rd dan should be this and that. There is no way to guarantee it for even a small percentage of any category let alone all or even most. Even people of same build and strength can be stop or stop one another with one punch. So what’s so hard to belief that someone bigger and stronger is doing it, regardless of any training? If you get hit and it hurts or takes your wind away, being a 3rd Dan or 10 Dan makes no difference. Just because you are a 3rd Dan does not guarantee you won't be hit let alone hurt. It happens. Taking a Martial Art and being any rank or level does not guarantee anything. Yes, you hope that when the time comes that what you have been practicing helps, but it may not.

As for women having greater muscle density in the legs than men, is just not true. I have heard that same statement a few times so I decided to look it up and can find no data to back up this claim. I do however find lots of data that states just the opposite. Men have more muscle density body wide period. This includes the legs or any other body part.

The only thing that I could find that even comes close is that women have greater muscle endurance vs. men due to the fact that women have greater fat reserves to pull from. When it comes to strength, men win hands down in every study.

Yes it is possible 130 pound man to defeat a 200 pound man. But those odds drop greatly when you replace the 130 pound man with 130 pound woman, regardless if she is a 3rd dan or 10th dan for that matter.

Even if our SD classes we tell women that you do not want to stay and try to fight any man. You want to stun them, draw attention to the situation, and flee if possible. We tell them that they need to kick, bite, scratch, and do whatever it takes to make it difficult for any attacker. This is in the hopes that the attacker will leave because it is not an easy mark and there are much easier pray to be had.

What we were doing was a controlled match with set fighting skills. I fail to see why you find it hard for a 3rd dan weak person to lose to a bigger stronger less technically skilled person. She was not trying to keep me off until help came. She was not trying to fight for her life. Hell if at the time it was a 130 pound 35 year old 3rd Dan, I think the outcome would have been the same.

Maybe if this were a SD situation in the street it would have been different but to say she was no 3rd Dan because a color belt bigger person hit her and knock her down with the puch cause it landed really makes no sense to me.

 

[Tez3]

ATC are you saying she was pants at fighting because she was a woman and whatever grade she was she would still be rubbish?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I just don't think that there are any absolutes in life. You can only tip the odds a bit but you cannot make them absolute, and to me you point seem more like an absolute. There are no guarantees about anything let alone there being a fact or absolute truth in saying that a 3rd dan should be this and that. There is no way to guarantee it for even a small percentage of any category let alone all or even most. Even people of same build and strength can be stop or stop one another with one punch. So what’s so hard to belief that someone bigger and stronger is doing it, regardless of any training? If you get hit and it hurts or takes your wind away, being a 3rd Dan or 10 Dan makes no difference. Just because you are a 3rd Dan does not guarantee you won't be hit let alone hurt. It happens. Taking a Martial Art and being any rank or level does not guarantee anything. Yes, you hope that when the time comes that what you have been practicing helps, but it may not.

To an extent, you are correct. No, there are no absolutes in fighting and a third dan does not guarantee that you will never be hit and/or injured.

But what you describe is essentially a point fight that you were losing until you threw all technique to the wind and bums rushed her and nailed her in the chest. That is the sort of attack that one would expect on the school yard or from an out of hand drunk. The fact that she had no resource against it at that level is troubling. Sorry, but there is no way around that short of the rank being exclusively for sport.

we were doing was a controlled match with set fighting skills. I fail to see why you find it hard for a 3rd dan weak person to lose to a bigger stronger less technically skilled person.

I do not think that you realize the picture that you paint of this on the internet. You should realize that it is a bigger issue than simply a third dan losing to a bigger, stronger, less technically skilled person.

She was not trying to keep me off until help came. She was not trying to fight for her life. Hell if at the time it was a 130 pound 35 year old 3rd Dan, I think the outcome would have been the same.

Maybe if this were a SD situation in the street it would have been different

Different? Yes, she would be raped and/or killed instead of helped off of the mat.

The fact that this was a controlled match and not a self defense situation actually makes it more troubling. She is in an environment where she knows that you are going to attacker her, that you are, for fact, unarmed, and she is mentally prepared to face you. In a self defense situation, you do not have those luxuries.

If she was taken down that easily in the controlled environment by such a simplistic attack delivered by someone who, in all reality, was not interested in harming her, then honestly, I really cannot expect that she would have any means of defending herself in an actual self defense situation.

but to say she was no 3rd Dan because a color belt bigger person hit her and knock her down with the puch cause it landed really makes no sense to me.

That is not what I said. This is a multi-faceted issue, not a singular item. And I am not extrapolating. Everything that I have offered is entirely based upon your telling.

The problem was not simply that the punch landed and knocked her down.

First, the problem was that it was delivered by an easy to read and fairly easily avoided attack and left her completely defenseless. Simple footwork and effective guarding should have gotten her out of this; what you describe is that she basically just backed up until she came to the wall and then was struck.

Secondly, by third dan, she should have taken enough shots to the body by opponents of varying sizes and genders to be able to do more than just ball up on the floor as you described.

Thirdly, she could not effectively punch. You described her punches as being no more than minor irritants. The fact is that Karate based styles involve punching. This includes Taekwondo. By black belt, you shouldbe able to effectively punch someone, regardless of your gender. If you cannot do this, then you are not proficient in one of the most basic fundamentals of the style. If you cannot either punch or kick or both well enough to hurt an attacker, then your instructor should not be tying a black belt around your waste.

Also, I have trained with women who can effectively punch, so the gender explanation does not hold water.

It is this combination of things that makes the rank questionable, not simply that she took a hard hit.

And this type of scenario is exactly what would happen to a child with a black belt facing an adult attacker outside of the dojo. Which is the fundamental reason why I do not believe that children should be awarded black belts.

I realize that there are a whole host of reasons why instructors promote students and that it is not always their ability to handle themselves in a fight. I certainly have seen some of this where I train. And while I can respect that style of promotion, I do not agree with it.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

ATC are you saying she was pants at fighting because she was a woman and whatever grade she was she would still be rubbish?

Maybe that is not what ATC meant, but that is how it comes across.

I have trained with enough women who can effectively punch and who can effectively handle themselves against larger male opponents that I cannot agree with the reasons put forth.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In Thailand for Muay Thai Kids start fighting professionally around 6. Full contact Muay Thai rules

The issue in this thread is not that the five year old is fighting competitively against other kids in the same age range but that she has a black belt.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

ATC are you saying she was pants at fighting because she was a woman and whatever grade she was she would still be rubbish?

No. First I am not saying she was rubbish. I am simply stating that size and weight make just as much a factor in any combat weather controlled or SD.

I can simply point to the fact that boxers only slightly off in size and weight (maybe 5 pound, 10 at the most) will sometimes have the bigger man just walking right through the smaller mans punches. While the smaller man gets rocked by jabs.

In my case I was up againt a smaller woman that clearly could hit me at will and I could not do the same to her in the context of the competition. But once I threw out the martial arts and simply decided that I will impose my will on a smaller person to avoid the emberassment I was taking she could not handle it.

I am currently a 2nd Dan and have sparred many color belts and black belt both below my rank and above. In all cases I have yet not been touched at all nor have I failed to touch any one single person.

I just find it strange that some find it hard to believe that anyone (even a 3rd Dan) should not be hit just because they are a 3rd Dan. Just being a 3rd Dan does not make you unhittable nor does it make you unable to be hurt. Anyone can hurt anyone.

Yes in general a 3rd Dan, 1st, 2nd, 4th and so on, should know how to side step any technique or counter any technique, but not all the time or every time. No one can. We all get hit, and if that hit happens to be a good one, then oh well. Even one we see coming, sometimes we just can't react fast enough. It happens, will continue to happen, even to the best of us.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

I think the point that's trying to be made, ATC, isn't that a 3rd Dan should be untouchable, or that women have the ability to strike as hard or harder than men, but that a 3rd Dan should have the cunning to adapt to the situation and not rely solely on striking.

Think of it like this, I'm 5'5'', 16, and weighing in at a good 145. I can't strike at all, my wrists are tiny, my biceps insulting. Even when I throw in a technically perfect strike, the force behind it simply isn't much compared to other people in my dojo. Now yes, compared to a lot of the people who punch harder than me, I am technically more skilled, but I don't rely on my strikes to see me through a fight. I have good grappling skills, my throws are pretty excellent given my size, and learning to adapt to different fists (three finger strike, extended fist strike, what have you) also makes a difference, depending on where you intend to strike your opponent. And I'm a seventh kyu.

The point I'm trying to make isn't that a 3rd Dan should be able to out-strike or out-muscle any opponent, but should know their strengths and weaknesses and play to them.

 

[still learning]

Hello, There is NO rules to promoting anyone to Black Belt. Inside of us we know what this means and stand for....and each person has there own beliefs on this "one" too...

...from all of the posting above...Most of us believes in our own minds a 5 year should not be wearing a Black Belt.

....promotions will always be a debatable subject...?

Until a set of rules is "acceptable" to ALL? ....endless debates forever!

Aloha,

PS: Do we trust our own teenagers with a CAR! ...daughter has a brown belt in Judo...will a Black belt make a difference?

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Still_Learning, we all talk back and forth about how we don't care about ranking, but truth be told, and I think most people here on MT will agree with me, we DO care about ranking. Maybe not to the extent that we train simply to get the next rainbow colored belt, but the sum of our experiences displayed publicly within the confines of our school. My new Kaju school has a saying that a black belt is a black belt because they've spent years sweating blood. Not because they spent years at the school, not because they sweated blood at one point, but it was a continuous occurrence that molded them into what they are. Simply put, putting a black belt on a five year old who, mathematically thinking, can only have been training for two years (from age three to five) then there is no way, even for a prodigy, to have the skills necessary to produce the sweating blood metaphor. Children don't have the attention span to concentrate on something long enough to mentally develop into a black belt, and their ever-changing body structure could not support black belt level conditioning, the effect of such acts would result in horrible muscle degeneration for the child.

Honestly, what I feel is being discussed here isn't the fact that the girl has a black belt around her waist, but the connotation of such belt implies that she has superb skills, which she simply CANNOT have at that age. Set in stone or simply idea in mind, the black belt should go synonymously with technical skill, application and mental knowledge, and at best a five year old can only have the former.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In my case I was up againt a smaller woman that clearly could hit me at will and I could not do the same to her in the context of the competition. But once I threw out the martial arts and simply decided that I will impose my will on a smaller person to avoid the emberassment I was taking she could not handle it.

But by third dan, she should have been able to.

I notice that you keep coming back to weight classes and competition. Nobody is untouchable, as you said, but outside of competition, an attacker will usually be a larger stronger person trying to impose their will on a victim that they perceive as weak. If a third dan's training is only applicable within their own gender and weight class, then honestly, they are not ready for third dan, unless they are training exclusively or primarily for sport and need the rank for bracketing in competition.

Shinobi Teikiatsu summed it up perfectly:

I think the point that's trying to be made, ATC, isn't that a 3rd Dan should be untouchable, or that women have the ability to strike as hard or harder than men, but that a 3rd Dan should have the cunning to adapt to the situation and not rely solely on striking.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

Daniel and Shinobi have exactly hit the points I was trying to make, thank you!

The Muay Thai children who fight do it out of necessity, my instructor goes out to Thailand regularly and has seen them fight, they do so to help support their families much in the same way their sisters are forced into the sex trade. It's not something that we can applaud happening, they should be in school not having to earn a living at 6.

 

[ATC]

I think the point that's trying to be made, ATC, isn't that a 3rd Dan should be untouchable, or that women have the ability to strike as hard or harder than men, but that a 3rd Dan should have the cunning to adapt to the situation and not rely solely on striking.

Think of it like this, I'm 5'5'', 16, and weighing in at a good 145. I can't strike at all, my wrists are tiny, my biceps insulting. Even when I throw in a technically perfect strike, the force behind it simply isn't much compared to other people in my dojo. Now yes, compared to a lot of the people who punch harder than me, I am technically more skilled, but I don't rely on my strikes to see me through a fight. I have good grappling skills, my throws are pretty excellent given my size, and learning to adapt to different fists (three finger strike, extended fist strike, what have you) also makes a difference, depending on where you intend to strike your opponent. And I'm a seventh kyu.

The point I'm trying to make isn't that a 3rd Dan should be able to out-strike or out-muscle any opponent, but should know their strengths and weaknesses and play to them.

Once again everyone seems to be tossing out the context of the situation and just applying should of's in their own context. Even if you want to throw out the context of the match and make it a free for all she still would have gotten overwhelmed.

I have done multiple styles of martial arts during my time and in all of them weight, size, and streangth are just as much a factor as experience, and sometimes can come more into play depending on the situation. If you think other wise then I think you are giving someone a false sense of confidence and I just hope they never have to be in any such situation where some bigger street tuff is in front of them.

We all give instructions of what to do when... But we cannot gurantee that anyone we teach can pull it off when needed. Just because it is said that this or that should be done, does not mean that it will happen. No matter what rank someone is. Reality is too dynamic and there are too many variables and there is no way we can act one each one all the time.

At this point I really don't know what point is trying to be made other than at 3 dan it is expected that you can and will counter all and every situation. OK if you belive that then good for you.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

If your logic held true, ATC, then the martial arts would have gone extinct a long time ago. If all it took to be victorious was being bigger and stronger, then people would never practice martial arts to begin with. Think about it, naturally the bigger and stronger will dominate, and so people started to wonder how they could triumph without having to get bigger and stronger. The result? Technique. If you eliminate all possible variables, then you're stuck with a science and of course the meek will never overcome the strong. The fact of the matter is, if you say that you will always dominate because you're bigger, stronger and of the male gender, then you're just as jaded as those who say that X technique will work 100% of the time.