fighting stances

[bluewaveschool]

We all know that there are plenty of variation on the 'proper' fighting stance, by which I mean the stance you have the students in when practicing drills and such. Not all of us use the 'fighting stance' when we actually fight.

I was taught it as a T shaped stance. Back foot turned 90 degrees, when you bring the front foot back to it, they form a T. Roughly 70/30 ratio on the weight, back vs front. Must be able to pick front leg up without causing any movements in your head/upper body.

What did you all learn/teach to your students?

 

[ATC]

We all know that there are plenty of variation on the 'proper' fighting stance, by which I mean the stance you have the students in when practicing drills and such. Not all of us use the 'fighting stance' when we actually fight.

I was taught it as a T shaped stance. Back foot turned 90 degrees, when you bring the front foot back to it, they form a T. Roughly 70/30 ratio on the weight, back vs front. Must be able to pick front leg up without causing any movements in your head/upper body.

What did you all learn/teach to your students?

You just described what we call a back stance not a fighting stance. Fighting stance should be more comfortable with almost even weight distribution for moving in any direction at any given time. The stance you describe is more of a defensive stance not a neutral or ready to attack or defend stance.

 

[terryl965]

You just described what we call a back stance not a fighting stance. Fighting stance should be more comfortable with almost even weight distribution for moving in any direction at any given time. The stance you describe is more of a defensive stance not a neutral or ready to attack or defend stance.

I can only agree with ATC

 

[bluewaveschool]

My father does a bit more like you say, something he picked up through our instructor teaching him Kenpo on the side. I slide in and out of various stances sparring. 2 of the other instructors fight strictly out of T stance, and both are pretty good at it. One has even figured out how to advance in it while defending himself from my kicks. He's a pain in the butt to spar.

As far as not a ready to attack stance, close in on me please, so I can put a front kick in your gut without my upperbody every giving away the fact my leg moved ;P

 

[bluewaveschool]

on a serious note, I've seen the term back stance used for that a lot. I've seen it done in a L shape instead of a T. Which do you do? I've also seen some video of people doing forms with the back knee bent on the long/forward/walking stance. Does anyone teach that, or is that sloppy form?

 

[bribrius]

My father does a bit more like you say, something he picked up through our instructor teaching him Kenpo on the side. I slide in and out of various stances sparring. 2 of the other instructors fight strictly out of T stance, and both are pretty good at it. One has even figured out how to advance in it while defending himself from my kicks. He's a pain in the butt to spar.

As far as not a ready to attack stance, close in on me please, so I can put a front kick in your gut without my upperbody every giving away the fact my leg moved ;P

I think it is a tkd thing. My daughter just started it and that is how they have her stance. I know, i can't believe it either figure there must be a reason. I am 80/20 or even more off back/front and usually open palmed hands out and down, knees slightly bent back foot at 70 degrees and front ten degrees the other way and with one or both heels up. Other is left hand up (finger open) and arm extended, similiar feet positioning front straight and back at 80. Front heel up, back flat. Heel palm or half fist pulled back. I change as i go but prefer the first. Once in a while i will use a fist with my back hand. I dont like having my fingers closed in general. I dont really fight either so this works for me..... lol

 

[ATC]

My father does a bit more like you say, something he picked up through our instructor teaching him Kenpo on the side. I slide in and out of various stances sparring. 2 of the other instructors fight strictly out of T stance, and both are pretty good at it. One has even figured out how to advance in it while defending himself from my kicks. He's a pain in the butt to spar.

As far as not a ready to attack stance, close in on me please, so I can put a front kick in your gut without my upperbody every giving away the fact my leg moved ;P

Not saying that you can't move in this this stance as you can move in any stance really, but the question is how well and to what degree.

The old time point fighters use to fight from a back stance, but for the most part their movment was only liner. Straight forward or straight backwards.

Anyone who faints and moves forward and off angle will make a straight front kick miss with ease while taking off the head of their opponet at the same time.

Also you are correct. The backstance should L not T but many T anyways when doing a backstance. We L but like stated many seem to T by nature for some reason.

 

[Manny]

I use ap sogi or soemthing like the boxer stance. It has worked for me cause my kicks are performed with the rear leg.

Manny

 

[Earl Weiss]

To a certain extent your stance will be used to enhance your strengths. If you are a lead leg kicker like Bill Wallace than having more weight on your rear leg works. If you want to be able to kick equaly well with either foot than you need a 50/50 weight distribution. Having the "T" shape will also hinder rear leg kicking. Having equal weight on both feet while Being able to push off with the rear foot in the direction of the kick facilitates the kick and allows the rear foot to kick without first making a noticeable weight shift.

Our basic stance is the same as a Kick boxers. The rear foot points almost completely forward with the rear heel raised and the knee bent. 50% of your weight is on the ball of the rear foot. Think of a sprinter coming out of the blocks. They need to get the rear foot forward as quickly as possible.

This stance enables you to kick equaly well with either foot and move equaly well in any direction with a probe or shuffle step.

 

[Earl Weiss]

As far as not a ready to attack stance, close in on me please, so I can put a front kick in your gut without my upperbody every giving away the fact my leg moved ;P

I would classify this as either a defensive kick or counterattack since you are not the initiator.

It is certainly possible to initiate with a lead leg kick from this stance if you push off with the rear foot. But the "Close in on me please" indicates it is not an attack. This may be an issue of semantics.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Well, moreso a get inside my range, don't have to be charging in.

Sparred dad tonight for the first time in 8-9 years. At 49 he let off, should have taken my head off when i missed the block on his backspin fist. The tape exposes very flaw in my current state. I did land one sidekick to the gut, which just pissed him off. I had to start using a pushing kick when he started to spin to get distance from the backspin fist, so he switched it to a backspin kick. If he was an inch or two taller I wouldn't have been able to escape those.

 

[bluewaveschool]

He posted the video on FB. I look like complete crap. Wow. I mean, I've been out a long time and all, but jeez...

 

[bribrius]

I would classify this as either a defensive kick or counterattack since you are not the initiator.

It is certainly possible to initiate with a lead leg kick from this stance if you push off with the rear foot. But the "Close in on me please" indicates it is not an attack. This may be an issue of semantics.

after giving this some thought......

i actually dont understand the weight on the back leg in this instance unless it is to avoid sweeps. I think back stance is defensive because it is meant for primarily counter attack of the opponents attack. I understand this in open hand because my expectation is a kick or punch or perhaps a weapon strike, sweep and am ready for that. Open hand in the stance allows me full protection on all three levels on all facing angles. with the front leg easily moved to stop sweeps or for blocking the lower extremity, the second level protected by the right hand and third by the left (head). It allows for both blocking but also with the purpose of once a persons other limb is in my reach i may be able to trap it or the open hand allows greater flexibility for me for take downs. My goal being kick at me and i dont plan on you getting your leg back. Back leg stance also allows quick distance adjustment (avoidance) as the step back can be taken and transfer to a front stance fairly quickly and changing your position dramatically and quickly (the weight to the rear leg already there, the step back already begun just in the stance). The front foot angled the opposite direction is preparation for forward movement as the step is already in place (which then becomes your back foot with that step). what i really have for a stance isn't a back stance but close enough i figure i will comment.

what i dont understand about the back stance in tkd is the hands are in fists. It could be a benefit making it harder to sweep the front leg. Front kick is of course easier but the front kick limits your reach (coming from the thread on distance i started). Tkd being a kicking art primarily i would think the distance and concentration would be on preparing the back leg leaving that free to move instead of taking the weight and extending your reach with a roundhouse type kick instead of the front kick.

Having a back stance with close fists i dont really understand in tkd. Open hand perhaps as you are attempting to move the fight to a different distance and gain control using your opponents actions (kick for example) to you advantage for counter and engagement. Tkd isn't really for close engagement though is it? So why would you want to have a back stance and invite it?

 

[MasterWright]

I use ap sogi or soemthing like the boxer stance. It has worked for me cause my kicks are performed with the rear leg.

Manny

Hey Manny, Just wonder if you do any front leg training for kicks at your club. Perhaps practicing counters, drills and that kind of thing. I assume that your style is WTF.

 

[bluewaveschool]

My hands are loose fist to easily grab. Dad and 2 other BB are hands completely open. I throw an inside roundhouse as much as a front kick off the lead leg. Slightly turning my lead leg, I can throw a roundhouse, side and hook easily. The 2 female BB are also known to trap with hands on occasion. Not all TKD preach closed fists.

 

[bribrius]

My hands are loose fist to easily grab. Dad and 2 other BB are hands completely open. I throw an inside roundhouse as much as a front kick off the lead leg. Slightly turning my lead leg, I can throw a roundhouse, side and hook easily. The 2 female BB are also known to trap with hands on occasion. Not all TKD preach closed fists.

almost sounds like you are sparring with people with some skills so you aren't preparing for any high kicks or long movements knowing they will get you in trouble!!

(SMILES!!)

 

[Gemini]

I teach both feet forward at a 45 deg. angle about shoulder length apart, on the balls of the feet, even weight. We practice movement in all 4 directions equally. Kicks from front legs or back legs shouldn't be noticeable in weight transfer (defeats the purpose, right?).
Senior students will often change the stance to some degree to better suite their style. As long as they don't give away their movement, I don't care.
Oh, and, I keep my hands open, but I don't teach it initially. It offers drawbacks and advantages, but the first lesson is always safety and fists are safer.

 

[chrispillertkd]

i actually dont understand the weight on the back leg in this instance unless it is to avoid sweeps.

Well, to some extent. When I trained in Praying Mantis the primary fighting stance we were taught had the majority of the weight on the back leg (more than the 70% usually associated with Taekwon-Do's niunja sogi). The front leg's foot was lightly on the ground. The length of the sance was a bit shorter than a niunja sogi, which is a shoulder and a half length from the front foot's toes to the back foot's heel. This set up was to minimize the likelihood of being swept, a very common threat in that style. In Taekwon-Do, having the majority of the weight on the back leg could make one less vulnerable to a front leg sweep.

It also, however, allows one to transfer their mass more substantially (for want of a better word) when executing a kick from the rear leg.

I think back stance is defensive because it is meant for primarily counter attack of the opponents attack. I understand this in open hand because my expectation is a kick or punch or perhaps a weapon strike, sweep and am ready for that. Open hand in the stance allows me full protection on all three levels on all facing angles. with the front leg easily moved to stop sweeps or for blocking the lower extremity, the second level protected by the right hand and third by the left (head). It allows for both blocking but also with the purpose of once a persons other limb is in my reach i may be able to trap it or the open hand allows greater flexibility for me for take downs.

Technically speaking, there is no hard and fast rule for whether one carries their hands in fists, knife-hands, semi-open, or whathaveyou in such a stance. I will say this, however, beginning students who don't keep their hands closed when sparring are liable to get a broken finger or two when blocking.

My goal being kick at me and i dont plan on you getting your leg back.

I love when people try to grab my kicks

Front kick is of course easier but the front kick limits your reach (coming from the thread on distance i started). Tkd being a kicking art primarily i would think the distance and concentration would be on preparing the back leg leaving that free to move instead of taking the weight and extending your reach with a roundhouse type kick instead of the front kick.

Well, yes and no. Taekwon-Do does favor kicks as its primary weapon. But not all kicks travel in the same trajectory. Nor do all kicks have the same length on full extension (just execute a front kick from the front foot and one from the back foot to see the difference; that doesn't even take into account different kicks). Just because people tend to associate kicks with long range, outside fighting doesn't mean that they cannot be used closer in. I've seen many people close to punching range and get kicked in the stomach, on the chest, and in the head. Heck, I rmember sparring my instructor some years ago and moving in on him with a couple of straight punches and then an upset punch (which is a very close in technique). He countered by kicking me in the head with a vertical kick :shrug:

Having a back stance with close fists i dont really understand in tkd. Open hand perhaps as you are attempting to move the fight to a different distance and gain control using your opponents actions (kick for example) to you advantage for counter and engagement.

Like I said previously, there's no hard and fast about hand position when fighting.

Tkd isn't really for close engagement though is it? So why would you want to have a back stance and invite it?

I love when people think Taekwon-Do isn't for close in fighting.

As for a back stance inviting close in fighting, maybe. That would depend on the person and the kind of guard they have. The normal body position for a nunja sogi is half facing which, coupled with a good guarding block position makes for a very limited number of possible targets in the first place.

Pax,

Chris

 

[bluewaveschool]

I can't currently do it, but closing into punching range used to mean having to duck a hook kick to the head. Depending on the speed of the student, of course. I wouldn't use that in a real fight, but sparring, if I knew you didn't have the speed, I had the leg speed to keep someone off me all day. Somewhat faster than me, I did a lot of blocking and sidekicks to the ribs/gut or 'accidently' to the thigh if someone was trying to get rough for no reason.

Now, I did have one student that busted his own nose open with a cresent kick. Talk about flexibility...